Where the Big Boys Play #55

[soup23]

When is Chad's book of my AWA reviews coming out?

 

I'm also annoyed you no-sold Foucault.

Still sad those look lost in the DVDVR crash.

[Evil Jim Herd]

Of course I was behind moving Starrcade to St. Louis. St. Louis is a MAN'S TOWN for wrestling. St. Petersburg is some po-dunk piece of shit town in Florida.

 

I planned to bring in all my boys for Starrcade '90. Dick the Bruiser, David Von Erich, Bulldog Bob Brown, and my real choice for the Black Scorpion: KING KONG BRODY. He never returned my calls.

[King Solomon]

I was a big mark for the older storied buildings, that's why I loved the Olympic here in L.A. and hated the Sports Arena. The Forum was alright but it was outta the way for us Eastsiders. I thought it was cool that they had it in St. Louie but maybe it woulda been wiser to have in the Boro or Atlanta.

[bradhindsight]

Great show as always boys.

 

Parv you talked about the continuity around Flair not going for the title but remember his match against Luger at Clash 12 was for the US title because he would become the de-facto #1 contender if he won. Luger won by DQ, presumably shunting Flair down the top ten list (pretty sure he still referenced this - I know he did earlier in the 1990).

 

Sting carry jobs is a good question. I don't know if we're stipulating this with "great" carry jobs but I thought his match with Al Perez at 12 was perfectly fine. Not sure how Perez is viewed as a worker though.

 

I can only assume the plan was that for whomever won the balloons would drop at the end - not necessarily in place only for a Sting win. It also could have been Ole commandeering the balloon controls ala the cage at Capital Combat

 

I really like the Ricky Steamboat idea with Parv's ready-made promo that he talked about.

 

The only connection one could infer (if you didn't have Jim Ross' heavy-handed speculation) for it being Barry is that the rest of the Horsemen were ringside already. Flair and Arn are out, leaving Barry as the logical fake - you know, if you could tell it was a fake Sting. Looked like Barry had his hair cut similar to others at the time. Heck, he could have potentially been The Black Scorpion too.

 

I do think in terms of kayfabe continuity, it makes sense for the Black Scorpion to not interfere in the main event given who it ended up being. So at least they didn't have to ret-con that kind of flub should he have come out with the Horsemen also being ringside (or soon to be ringside).

[Loss]

I always thought for the finish to this main event that if they were going to do it, they needed to have some balls and actually see it through. The Horsemen getting away with the same angle at Havoc leading to weeks of TV intrigue *might* have worked.

[PeteF3]

Or at least have Sting confront the fake in the ring, with Windham selling shock or even doing a pratfall and allowing Sting to take him out before turning his attention to Sid. As it was actually executed, the crowd's confusion is palpable--they clearly bought the initial finish straight-up.

 

Question from someone who hasn't seen them since their initial airing: are any of the Sting/Giant matches any good?

[cheapshot]

Really fun show guys, finally gotten around to finishing it.

 

Sad no more MX anymore however. <_>

[Dustys Pencil]

More pooping on mentally handicapped babyfaces haha

 

I remember getting in so much trouble in 87 for calling the WCW 900 number lol

 

Sometimes i like watching these shows on youtube as i listen...its great seeing the "hot tag' in the renegades match as chad mentions the lack of reaction..you can look at the crowd sitting on their hands as the youngblood comes in with the chops

 

i enjoy a little bickering with the face and heel announcers but this was a bit over the top

 

knowing michael hayes as we do i wonder how i treated poor rocky king behind the scenes

 

FINALLY some love for the Steiners and yes watching this match was great...two big brawling teams taking big crazy bumps

 

I definitely thought the Tag title match was strong

 

I love Sid as a main eventer but something never clicked and same with Sting which is probably why i was all but done with wrestling at this point...and yes the ending of this was confusing as all hell

 

The booking on this show reminds me why I was done with wrestling at this point

 

 

Good show though guys

[Blazer]

I need to check this out sometime. Starrcade 90 is one of the few ppvs from that era that I've never seen.

[JazeUSA]

i haven't gotten any new shows on my itunes subscription since the horrible robocop show, am I missing shows or you guys no longer using itunes?

[soup23]

We have a new link that is here: https://itunes.apple.com/gb/podcast/ptbn-wr...d715657490?mt=2

[BigBadMick]

Dylan, my point is not so much that he's influenced fans in general, but specifically fans who do reviews on the internet. Chad and I cross-check reviews of these shows from many different sources: stuff the P2B guys have done, 411.com, Matt Pettycord, Adam Gutschmidt, Pegusus, all sorts of stuff that comes up on google searches. Some home truths:

 

1. The pool of people "out there" who have actually reviewed Halloween Havoc 90, for example, is quite small. You could count them on 2 hands. They are guys I could probably name. So I agree with you that the average fan out there is not name-checking Keith. But they might well watch this show and pull up a review of it and the REVIEW is what is Keith-influenced.

 

2. This small pool of people reviewing stuff aren't always terribly insightful or great at reviewing. Peter has identified a standard templated. I'm not suggesting for a second that WTBBP is the be all and end all of PPV reviews, but I do think we -- and PWO in general -- are a step "beyond" the typical wrestling show review / match analysis "out there". We break down matches. We look at structure. We do more than just say "Oh Earthquake is a fat guy. DUD" We account for 1% of 1%.

 

3. The small pool of people reviewing stuff all copy each other / copy Keith not just in their style but in their ratings. Take the opener here on Havoc 90. Chad brought up the the point that it was given ***1/2 pretty much across the board. He pulled out Hart Foundation matches that are routinely also given ***1/2 that are nowhere near that level. Something has gone wrong in the critical process by which that consensus comes to be. I'll tell you in a nutshell what it is: it's the guy doing the review checking Keith or another peer and ensuring he's always within 1/2 a star of that rating. I've seen this in review after review of show after show.

 

You end up with what are essentially self-generated myths. Flair vs. Garvin is a ** match? How? Why?

 

The Nasty Boys vs. Steiners match on this show. The Keith line is to think "oh hey it's the Nasty Boys, they are shitty workers, this match will be shitty, there's a cap on how good it can be. Let's make jokes about how shitty Knobbs and Saggs are.

 

Let me pull out Keith's review of that match.

 

- US tag team title match: The Steiner Brothers v. The Nasty Boys. This is one of those legendary matches that doesnât really deserve it, but still made the career of the Nasties. These guys, in a nutshell, donât like each other, and thatâs all the people need to know. Mega-brawl to start. Sags gets Scott on the top for a superplex right out of the gate, but Scott reverses to a belly-to-belly for a big pop. Scott hits a tiger driver and the Steiners do the top rope bulldog for another mega-pop. Welcome to the spotfest. Knobs nails Scott with a chair for a two count to give the Nasties the advantage. Knobs with a powerslam for two. Sags with a pumphandle slam, and a gut wrench suplex for two. Knobs kills the flow with an ABDOMINAL STRETCH OF SEVERE HURT. Mike Rotundo must be flattered to have this kind of influence on the sport. Bearhug bores me further. Scott breaks with the belly-to-belly. Rick comes in without a tag and cleans house, but mises a charge and flies out of the ring. This allows the Nasties to spike piledrive Scott for two. Rick nails Sags with a chair while Knobs is escorted out, and Sags blades for the hell of it. Knobs goes back to the bearhug. Sags applies a Boston Crab, and Scott powers out of it. Knobs goes to the camel clutch, thus running the full gambit of the WORLDâS SHITTIEST RESTHOLDS. What is this, a Sid match? The Nasty clothesline misses and Scott gets the hot tag. Rick rips some heads off, and belly to bellies Knobs for two. The Nasties double-team Rick, but he manages a double top rope Steinerline that was only a *wee* bit contrived. The Nasties slam Scott on the floor and go back to working on Rick, but Scott pulls Sags out of the ring, and then rolls back in to finish Knobs with the Frankensteiner. Hmm, at the time I wouldâve given you 10-1 that the Nasties would walk out with the belts, but the Steiners retain. The Nasties were instantly over because of this match, and since WCW is run by chimpanzees, they werenât underlong-term contract and ended up becoming *WW F* tag champs mere months later. **3/4

This is a fucking disgrace of a review. The wild brawl at the start automatically becomes a "spotfest". Keith is complaining that there's too many high spots. In the next breath when the Nasties take it to the mat he's complaining about perfectly legitimate, focused work on Scott Steiner's injured back as "restholds". So he doesn't want high spots, and he doesn't want matwork. What does he want?

 

Why is the camel clutch a "shitty resthold"? In what way are the Nasty Boys aping the way Sid works? Or was he just trying to "get his shit in" as a reviewer? Why is the Steinerline in the hot finish criticised for contrivance? What does he want?

 

So a clear ****+ match, in Keith's hands, becomes a **3/4 disaster.

 

Now Matt Peddycord ... **3/4

 

Now Dark Pegasus ... ***1/4

 

Now mcc91 from the P2B board ... ***

 

Now some chap called "Scrooge McSuck" who doesn't give star ratings but not too subtely picks up on exactly the same criticisms as Keith: "Good brawl, but too slow at times, particularly the overly long bearhug spots."

 

And really, there aren't that many more HH90 reviews out there. That's pretty much "the field".

 

You see how things snow ball? You understand why I get frustrated?

 

I understand and applaud your frustration Parv. I remember reading a bunch of his reviews a few years ago and wondering why he bothered watching wrestling.....

[funkdoc]

re: the camel clutch

 

that move seems to be up there with the bearhug in terms of smark hatred. heck, people on here complained about it with rusev!

 

in fairness, it looks REALLY bad when not executed well, even compared to most wrestling moves...but i think another big factor is the "cliched evil foreigner" stench on it. that move inevitably brings up memories of the iron sheik, and iron sheik embodies everything old & corny & uncool about wrestling to a lot of the typical internet crowd.