Improvement of former indy wrestlers in WWE

[Matt D]

It's very possible I've never actually seen a KENTA match. I do remember complaining a whole lot that brainbusters weren't allowed in WWE in 2002, though, which I am terribly embarrassed about now.

[Tim Cooke]

What's the goal of wrestling? 1. To make money.

 

Beyond that, it is like a lot of art forms, where there will be a lot of subjectivity for preference of styles and what individuals like. But I would say that the next most important aspect is getting over, which leads to making money. To get over, you have to have something special. Chances are, the something special you have is going to have to be logical. If that's based on in ring work, the more logical you are, the more likely you are to get the match, yourself, and your opponent over. That doesn't work all the time, but nothing works all the time. I believe that's improvement.

 

There are different levels of improvements. Learning how to run the ropes without tripping is inherently an improvement. But so is being able to lessen the amount of moves you do and make them mean more. That's the common thing I have seen with every indy guy who has made it to the WWE and succeeded. It's funny because you won't find a bigger Paul London fan in ROH during his first run than me but besides poor booking/lack of push in the WWE, he never found a way to adjust to their style and make it work to his strengths (which in ROH was selling and getting the crowd behind him). I've seen a lot of people argue that WWE's style is what killed London and I think that's a cop out. London had the potential to be John Cena lite (I don't think he had all of the inherent charisma of Cena or the body type but he certainly had a portion of the charisma).

 

If a wrestler like Kevin Steen lost 80 pounds, I still don't think he would make it in the WWE. Without his stunts, he is nothing. And his stunts wouldn't fly in WWE.

 

I think Sydal suffers from that a little bit as well. I wouldn't call Sydal a stunt guy but he certainly appeared to be very one dimensional in ROH and the little I saw of him in the WWE. I don't think it means the WWE made him worse, I think it speaks more to his overall ability as a wrestler. It's one thing to get over in front of 500 people in ROH or 2000 people in Dragon Gate. It's a completely other thing to get over in a major league organization, playing by their rules, regardless of what you might think of those rules.

 

The verdict is still out on guys like Generico. Based on his indy work, I'm not sure he has more than the stunts to make him a major player. Doesn't mean he won't improve and I might be dead wrong - I probably would have said the same about Punk and Danielson's chances in the WWE if asked back in 2005. There are a lot of baseball players who were great AAA guys but couldn't cut it in the majors because the jump from AAA to MLB is the highest jump in any professional sport. That's why they call those guys 4A players. There's nothing wrong with being a 4A player and if you recognize what you do well, sometimes you can have along career in the majors as a utility guy. But just because a 4A guy can't start everyday in the big leagues doesn't mean there is something wrong MLB's highest level of play.

[Kevin Ridge]

I guess I look at it that I would be surprised if guys did not improve upon going through the WWE system. There is the simple difference in years since they were in indies and just the additional experience they have gained. WWE does do a good job in reigning in the excessiveness of moves with their style. Safety in the ring matters so guys are not allowed to do escalted high risk moves through out a match to keep trying to get a pop. Less is more. They have a development system run by former wrestlers who provide coaching and feedback. When they make it up to WWE they now have more former wrestlers working as road agents to help them more. WWE also has a real slick TV production with mulitple cameras that can hide things. Imagine if these guys came up during the territory days where they get to work with a larger variety of wrestlers in different areas working working different styles? Territories faded away and there is so few places for new wrestlers to go and learn how to actually wrestle a match. WWE can mold guys who are talented enough to fit their style. If you enjoy that style you would give their current development system high marks.

[Dylan Waco]

Sydal was over huge in the WWE. The problem is he got injured several times and really likes weed.

 

I also think London and Kendrick got over really well, much better than you would think given what the WWE usually does with tag teams.

 

One guy who didn't really get over a ton in WWE, but improved immensely while there was Kid Kash

[Timbo Slice]

Well, that depends on what you think "improve" means. If "improve" means to diversify your move set in order to not be stale, or to condense a move set into your most dynamic moves, or work on connecting with a crowd...there are a ton of people on here who believe the key to a good wrestling match is dynamic moves. There are also a ton of people on here who want heat-building near-falls that build to a finish. There's also people who would rather have moves scaled back so that they mean more.

 

A lot of people want the wrestlers to work the style they enjoy the most, but in the current WWE environment, that's not going to happen. They have their style. The wrestlers have to adapt. And sometimes, as a byproduct, it makes them a better worker.

 

Stan Hansen's shtick wasn't over in the US as much as it was in Japan or PR. So he was absolutely huge in those places while not doing well in AWA or WCW.

 

Evan Bourne was more about throwing out dynamic spots and bumping like a pinball before coming to WWE, and then used his bumping and athleticism to make him more well-rounded in a toned-down environment, which in turned made his more dynamic spots that more appealing because they "meant more" in the WWE environment.

 

It's like Tim said. The goal is to make money. If you have skills that can be used to help make the company money, in terms of coming into the WWE environment, that's "improvement" in their eyes.

[goc]

Evan Bourne was a pretty hot act for the first 6 months after he debuted. He came back from his injury and was still pretty over for the next year or so. They even tried to elevate him a bit based off his crowd reactions and gave him that program with Jericho that included a PPV match. I'm not sure what happened after that because there were a few months of treading water after that before he started having the really bad injury problems.

[FedEx227]

Harper has turned into a pretty awesome tag team worker for the style that WWE has going on. I really enjoy his stuff now, and I thought he was kinda shitty in the initial months the Wyatts were on tv. He's definitely found his groove.

 

I also enjoy Rowan's work, and i think he's been pretty good in his role from the start.

Someone from these parts told me that Vince put the "reigns" on Harper from the beginning and thought monsters shouldn't move around like that or do cool moves or whatever the hell Vince thinks. A few months ago, the chains got taken off and it's not a coincidence he's suddenly IMPROVED.

[ohtani's jacket]

Yeah, I was about to say. The ability to adjust to your surroundings IS improvement.

 

Also, this harps back to the conversation in another thread about why Hansen isn't considered an all-time great because he "only" worked Japan, where that's actually the reason he DID become an all-time great.

Hey, I never said that Hansen wasn't an all-time great. I said I think it hurts his case as the greatest wrestler of all-time that he wasn't as good in the US as he was in Japan and Puerto Rico.

[FedEx227]

This is an interesting debate for sure. I think one of the issues is the improvement = adapting to your surroundings. While that may be true, I don't think that's a fluid argument for "improvement". A guy like Danielson, you could argue is doing a better job of connecting with the audience but then again, it's not really fair to compare what he's asked to do in WWE, who he's asked to do it for and what not to his ROH career. To me, that's seems unreasonable to assume improvement based solely on objectives in wrestling.

 

You could argue he didn't do enough to get the crowd behind him in ROH or didn't get the same impact on his moves and while there's some truth to that, I saw the guy get gigantic reactions at numerous ROH events all across the country. To me, it's the difference between working a style 2,000 people liked to working a style 20,000 people like.

[Dylan Waco]

Was Okada a bad wrestler before NJPW gave him a chance and pushed him? Or was he just a guy who was there doing the job asked of him, which required much less and where doing more was not really an option? Okada has been called an obvious "Most Improved Award" Winner for 2012, and a no brainer. But did he really improve or was it just that he got put in a better position? Compare him to Rush who went from being a guy universally reviled as terrible, to a guy who is pretty much a consensus favorite among lucha fans the exact same year Okada won that award. Aside from the fact that Japanese wrestling (NJPW in particular) is covered more strongly and talked about more by Observer readers, what is the argument for Okada over Rush?

 

There is an element to how we as fans view "improvement" that is entirely wedded to booking and presentation. An element to it that is stylistic. And then there are guys like Rush who suck and all of the sudden are great. But I would argue Rush is an exception and not the rule

[cm funk]

Sydal was over huge in the WWE. The problem is he got injured several times and really likes weed.

 

I also think London and Kendrick got over really well, much better than you would think given what the WWE usually does with tag teams.

 

One guy who didn't really get over a ton in WWE, but improved immensely while there was Kid Kash

this is mid-00's smackdown stuff, where a lot of guys got time to do their thing. Being drafted to RAW in the mid 00's was basically death to anyone who was starting to get over on their own merits

 

SD and Velocity had a ton of fun stuff in those days

 

I think WWE appreciated Kendrick and Paul London, they gave them a long tag title reign and basically built the tag division around them (using them to get other teams over, while having the belts)....which was impressive. They're clearly both rebellious attitude wise and clashed with the WWE upper management, but it's not like they were unliked by the upper ranks

 

Kid Kash in WWE was pretty great, I thought his work in that short time he was there was outstanding. He turned himself into this angry old bulldog crusier. Him and Noble were an awesome tag team, in their brief run

[Jmare007]

Was Okada a bad wrestler before NJPW gave him a chance and pushed him? Or was he just a guy who was there doing the job asked of him, which required much less and where doing more was not really an option? Okada has been called an obvious "Most Improved Award" Winner for 2012, and a no brainer. But did he really improve or was it just that he got put in a better position? Compare him to Rush who went from being a guy universally reviled as terrible, to a guy who is pretty much a consensus favorite among lucha fans the exact same year Okada won that award. Aside from the fact that Japanese wrestling (NJPW in particular) is covered more strongly and talked about more by Observer readers, what is the argument for Okada over Rush?

 

There is an element to how we as fans view "improvement" that is entirely wedded to booking and presentation. An element to it that is stylistic. And then there are guys like Rush who suck and all of the sudden are great. But I would argue Rush is an exception and not the rule

The Okada case is interesting. In 2009 plenty of people (myself included) thought he was the most promising young lion New Japan had had in years. Then he went to TNA and the people that saw him there didn't think he was anything to write home about (I couldn't tell because I don't watch TNA). Then he came back for a 1 shot at Wrestle Kingdom V and people were disappointed by his performance. He went back to TNA for a year and then finally returned full time in 2012...were he had a lackluster match again, to the point where fans were baffled he was given a shot at Tanahashi in February. The rest is history as they say.

 

So was he good/very promising at the very beginning, regressed for a couple of years and all of a sudden "improved" in the span of a month? Hmm.

[W2BTD]

Okada didn't have a single good match in TNA. His best stuff was flat and uninspiring. Then he had a flat out terrible match with YOSHI-HASHI at WK6. So it was a universal opinion that his push was a huge mistake, and even after the Tanahashi match people thought Tanahashi carried him. We know the rest.

 

So maybe sometimes it's confidence or motivation. I don't know what Gedo & Jado saw, but nobody else was seeing it.

 

I can't compare 2012 Okada to 2012 Rush because I saw every Okada match that surfaced, and probably 2 or 3 Rush matches total.

[Dylan Waco]

In fairness to Okada (I want that quote printed on a VOW t-shirt with attribution to me directly below it), no one has good matches in TNA

[W2BTD]

In fairness to Okada (I want that quote printed on a VOW t-shirt with attribution to me directly below it), no one has good matches in TNA

Touche. As someone who for some reason refuses to stop watching, that's pretty much true, except in rare cases like Austin Aries.

 

While Okada was there, he worked a lot of Xplosion matches with the guys you would think of as the undercard workhorse types (by TNA standards, please work with me here) and even in those 5-8 minute matches he really showed nothing. And trust me, I was looking for glimmers of hope because I wanted him to do well.

 

I'm also a guy who loves the B-show enhancement role types (which is essentially what Okada was), like Stevie Richards in the WWECW days who I thought was fantastic, for example. Okada wasn't awful, but he was just...there.

 

At the risk of derailing this into another split thread or a split thread of a split thread, i'm really hoping the network eventually puts up the B & C shows like Velocity, Worldwide, etc. I eat that stuff up. Just wrestling, usually with cool undercard workers, and little to no bullshit.

[rzombie1988]

I can tell you right now that as great as Sami Zayn has been, he hasn't had a single match in WWE that would sniff his Top 50 in my opinion. Maybe a little unfair because he hasn't been able to go long, but up until 2012, same for Bryan.

I think you answered your own statement there: Sami hasn't really had a chance to have his best match yet. He's still in developmental for heaven's sake. Televised development, sure, but still development.

 

I mean you said it yourself, Daniel Bryan, a guy who was the 'best wrestler in the world' for a while beforehand, took until 2012 to start reaching his potential in the ring in WWE, which coincidentally is when he started to work main events. In WWE for the most part you need opportunities and time in order to deliver on a high end level, at least much moreso than the indies where guys have the freedom to routinely go above and beyond on the undercard.

 

I really prefer WWE Zayn over Indies Generico. He did way too much and took too many nasty bumps. Now he does less and is over just as much.

 

Thoughts on others:

Cesaro - He won my Wrestler of the Year award for 2013. However, his best is yet to come. The day he gets to be a face that yells "HEY", he is going to be huge. Maybe it will be the next "YES". He is no question a better worker. No one else was able to get close to what he got out of Khali and he had so much good stuff last year with Bryan, Kofi, Sheamus, Orton, Zayn and he even made Jack Swagger over. He can honestly do no wrong at this point. I really can't believe NOAH/Japan/TNA never saw the potential in him and I can't believe it took WWE so long.

 

Evan Bourne - Really good example of how WWE isn't always better for you. To be honest, he's been out for so long and hasn't gotten to show what he could do in so long that I don't even know how he is anymore. Can't say that he wasn't better in the indies.

 

Daniel Bryan - Really tough one here. I loved his indies run and he ended up winning my Wrestler of the Year award for 2012, along with a top finish in this year's awards. His crowd responses are definitely a huge upgrade and he was as hot as anyone else this summer. I would say he is a smarter worker now and has really mastered the fiery comeback. He also was able to show off his comedic side. He is one of the few people in the world where you could put him in any role and it will work.

 

Harper - Definitely better. I always found him underwhelming and overhyped but I do think he is better now.

 

Neville - So far, I'd have to say no. WWE hasn't figured out how to really make him a star yet and unfortunately he has no mic skills, look or character to back himself up with. Don't see any of that changing unless they can put a mask on him, which they should do.

 

Corey Graves - A definite no. WWE gave him no character to run with, never let him touch the mic and he has had better indy matches.

 

CM Punk - A slight yes as his appearance is better and he works smarter, but he hasn't changed that much. That's no knock as he has been major league since 2004.

 

Kassius Ohno - A big no for Ohno. His NXT run was awful. Bad character, bad promo's and bad matches. His athletic gimmick run in ROH was much better and I've seen him have some awesome matches.

 

Rollins - Yes. He did very well in his role as the NXT champ and has turned into one of the craziest bumpers out there. Totally passable on promo's too.

 

Colt Cabana - A definite yes. He learned how to be a better Colt and just looks like a major league talent. Unfortunately, his outside of the ring stuff seems to hurt him the most.

[Dylan Waco]

Another thing to remember about Bryan and Generico specifically is that they had really run out of things to do on the indies when they were picked up. I know many people will disagree with this, but even people who are much more favorably disposed toward "super indies" than I am would often talk about the fact that Generio (and Bryan before that) had worked everyone they could work, gone everywhere they could go, and that it was basically either become a stale indie, but very skilled indie guy, go to the WWE, or call it quits. This sentiment was actually expressed to me by a friend of Generico's not long before his signing. Anyway, the point is that they had sort of hit the wall on what there was for them on the indies. I'm not sure how that relates directly to what they have done in the WWE, but in the case of Generico especially, I think it has probably helped him some.

 

I've done this before off the board with some posters here, but it's always fun to compare indie guys picked up in the WWE to indie guys picked up by TNA. Aries had one tremendous, miracle of a year a couple of years back, but has largely been wasted since. Homicide came into TNA as a guy with a great rep as a worker, and left as a guy with a rep for being pretty lazy, boring and uninteresting. Then there is Joe who came in as arguably the best worker in the world, had a year or two there where he was still performing at a high level, and then was slowly killed dead. Styles is a tougher one to talk about for a variety of reasons.

[W2BTD]

I can tell you right now that as great as Sami Zayn has been, he hasn't had a single match in WWE that would sniff his Top 50 in my opinion. Maybe a little unfair because he hasn't been able to go long, but up until 2012, same for Bryan.

I think you answered your own statement there: Sami hasn't really had a chance to have his best match yet. He's still in developmental for heaven's sake. Televised development, sure, but still development.

 

I mean you said it yourself, Daniel Bryan, a guy who was the 'best wrestler in the world' for a while beforehand, took until 2012 to start reaching his potential in the ring in WWE, which coincidentally is when he started to work main events. In WWE for the most part you need opportunities and time in order to deliver on a high end level, at least much moreso than the indies where guys have the freedom to routinely go above and beyond on the undercard.

 

I really prefer WWE Zayn over Indies Generico. He did way too much and took too many nasty bumps. Now he does less and is over just as much.

 

Here's my stance on the nasty bumps, which i'm sure people will get all over me for, but hey, i'm ready for the heat.

 

It's not my body. Now, when things get too uncomfortable to watch, like Big Japan death matches or old school CZW stuff, I get turned off and won't watch. But otherwise, it may sound callous, but it's not my problem if these guys choose to put themselves in risk of long term damage. For me, Generico never crossed that line.

 

As far as doing less and getting over, that sort of speaks to working a style that suits your environment. Good on him if he can do less and have it mean the same, but how does that equal more entertaining matches for me as a fan as compared to when he was doing more? I watch wrestling to see action. Maybe it's my personal taste, but i'd rather watch Generico do more in DGUSA or DDT rather than Zayn do less in NXT. Selfish? Sure. But I watch this stuff to be entertained. Why would I want to see less, assuming of course it's structured well?

 

Generico was in some of the most well structured matches I saw over the last 3 or 4 years. The Kenny Omega match from December 2012 in DDT. The Kota Ibushi trilogy from DDT in the same year. Some of those matches featured lots of "stuff", but none were spot fests. I doubt he'll even top those matches in WWE. Just like Bryan won't top 2006. Because that stuff is flat out great. He can be great in WWE (and I know that he will be because he's too good not to be), in a totally different way. Just like his crazy brawls with Steen were great in a different style. To me just doing less won't really make him better, just like what Bryan is doing now isn't better than his peak indie stuff (i'd argue it isn't as good overall because of the formulaic structure of a lot of WWE matches). Smarter? Maybe. But you have to work for your crowd, and the great ones like Zayn & Bryan can get over anywhere and do anything.

[rzombie1988]

I can tell you right now that as great as Sami Zayn has been, he hasn't had a single match in WWE that would sniff his Top 50 in my opinion. Maybe a little unfair because he hasn't been able to go long, but up until 2012, same for Bryan.

I think you answered your own statement there: Sami hasn't really had a chance to have his best match yet. He's still in developmental for heaven's sake. Televised development, sure, but still development.

 

I mean you said it yourself, Daniel Bryan, a guy who was the 'best wrestler in the world' for a while beforehand, took until 2012 to start reaching his potential in the ring in WWE, which coincidentally is when he started to work main events. In WWE for the most part you need opportunities and time in order to deliver on a high end level, at least much moreso than the indies where guys have the freedom to routinely go above and beyond on the undercard.

 

I really prefer WWE Zayn over Indies Generico. He did way too much and took too many nasty bumps. Now he does less and is over just as much.

 

Here's my stance on the nasty bumps, which i'm sure people will get all over me for, but hey, i'm ready for the heat.

 

It's not my body. Now, when things get too uncomfortable to watch, like Big Japan death matches or old school CZW stuff, I get turned off and won't watch. But otherwise, it may sound callous, but it's not my problem if these guys choose to put themselves in risk of long term damage. For me, Generico never crossed that line.

 

As far as doing less and getting over, that sort of speaks to working a style that suits your environment. Good on him if he can do less and have it mean the same, but how does that equal more entertaining matches for me as a fan as compared to when he was doing more? I watch wrestling to see action. Maybe it's my personal taste, but i'd rather watch Generico do more in DGUSA or DDT rather than Zayn do less in NXT. Selfish? Sure. But I watch this stuff to be entertained. Why would I want to see less, assuming of course it's structured well?

 

Generico was in some of the most well structured matches I saw over the last 3 or 4 years. The Kenny Omega match from December 2012 in DDT. The Kota Ibushi trilogy from DDT in the same year. Some of those matches featured lots of "stuff", but none were spot fests. I doubt he'll even top those matches in WWE. Just like Bryan won't top 2006. Because that stuff is flat out great. He can be great in WWE (and I know that he will be because he's too good not to be), in a totally different way. Just like his crazy brawls with Steen were great in a different style. To me just doing less won't really make him better, just like what Bryan is doing now isn't better than his peak indie stuff (i'd argue it isn't as good overall because of the formulaic structure of a lot of WWE matches). Smarter? Maybe. But you have to work for your crowd, and the great ones like Zayn & Bryan can get over anywhere and do anything.

 

I have no qualms with you wanting to see bigger and cooler stuff. Makes sense on paper. I've just always given extra points to wrestlers for getting more out of less.

[Ryan Faulconer]

I think that the inconsistency of WWE booking can actually highlight the strengths of former indy wrestlers a lot more than weekend after weekend with ROH/PWG/Chikara/Gabe's world doubleshots that all those guys used to work. Daniel Bryan or Cesaro or Zayn or Bourne or whoever just LOOK better in the WWE environment. They stand out among the pack.

 

Part of that is how see-saw pushes or match layouts can be in WWE and that is really one of the more frustrating things about following your favourite wrestlers as they transition into WWE. Put them in between your average Ziggler/Sandow types and goofy divas and someone like Bryan or Cesaro really will look like the best in the world. Guys like Bryan/Cesaro/Zayn/Bourne/Harper/Rollins look pretty similar to what they were showing in the latter portion of their indy careers. Cesaro is definitely better than he was in 2006 but by 2010 he seemed fully formed to me. Same goes for everyone else....except for Ambrose. Ambrose always stood out as awkward on Gabe's shows. I'd recommend his recent interview on Cabana's podcast for more of his own perspective.

 

I don't know what to think about CM Punk in WWE. He almost seems overexposed to me - and I don't even get PPVs. Sometimes he looks like someone who has it all as a WWE performer. Sometimes he looks like that guy from 2003 IWA-MS only in front of a large paying audience instead of a few rows of empty chairs with scattered diehard fans amongst some beefy looking girls or old smoking gentlemen. Punk is definitely better than he was when he first got to WWE TV.

 

It is definitely a good thing that match times are cut across the board once you transition from indies to WWE. I enjoy long matches too but less is more - more often than not. I find WWE leaves me wanting more once a match or show is over. When I watch the indies I'll find myself sometimes completely satisfied with the end of a show or match. Unfortunately I can also find myself taking incremental breaks from watching wrestling after some indy shows as well...and that never happens with WWE. I'm dying to see the WWE Network but I'm in Canada and I'll have to wait longer than some of you in order to enjoy current WWE all week long.

[W2BTD]

I'll be completely honest, a lot of Bryan's WWE stuff loses me. Particularly during the Team Hell No era when I flat out didn't want to watch him and even fast forwarded a ton of his stuff because I was so tired of it. It's not because it's ever bad, it's always at worst good, but I feel like he's worked the same TV match for the last two years when he falls into those formulaic WWE signature move patterns. When he's in there with somebody dynamic like Rollins, who bumps like a maniac for his comebacks, that's when i'm all in. I never had that problem with ROH Daniel Bryan.

 

The Bray Wyatt match at the Rumble to me was by far his best WWE match yet. I gave that ****3/4. It had a different pace, a different feel, and just when you thought they were going into the same old WWE finishing sequence, they turned it upside down and Wyatt cut everything off. The timing & pace were outstanding. That was peak Bryan in this style.

[rzombie1988]

Another thing to remember about Bryan and Generico specifically is that they had really run out of things to do on the indies when they were picked up. I know many people will disagree with this, but even people who are much more favorably disposed toward "super indies" than I am would often talk about the fact that Generio (and Bryan before that) had worked everyone they could work, gone everywhere they could go, and that it was basically either become a stale indie, but very skilled indie guy, go to the WWE, or call it quits. This sentiment was actually expressed to me by a friend of Generico's not long before his signing. Anyway, the point is that they had sort of hit the wall on what there was for them on the indies. I'm not sure how that relates directly to what they have done in the WWE, but in the case of Generico especially, I think it has probably helped him some.

 

I've done this before off the board with some posters here, but it's always fun to compare indie guys picked up in the WWE to indie guys picked up by TNA. Aries had one tremendous, miracle of a year a couple of years back, but has largely been wasted since. Homicide came into TNA as a guy with a great rep as a worker, and left as a guy with a rep for being pretty lazy, boring and uninteresting. Then there is Joe who came in as arguably the best worker in the world, had a year or two there where he was still performing at a high level, and then was slowly killed dead. Styles is a tougher one to talk about for a variety of reasons.

Aries - He's on WWE's level. He was the best he had ever been in 2012ish and was easily one of the best in the world. But, it's TNA and they could blow anything.

 

Homicide - I never liked him as much as others. Granted, I had seen him in some really good stuff with Daniels and AJ in IWC in 2003, but I dunno. He just never appealed to me much. Had a nice run with LAX though and probably over achieved for not having that interesting of a gimmick or personality.

 

AJ - Tough one here, so good call Dylan. I really don't know why WWE doesn't want him. Really, I don't. At worst, they could just have him be another vet to help out the young guys. AJ was always the tops wrestling wise and was one of the most shredded guys until he joined TNA. He was awful on interviews this year and that brought him down a lot. I'd say he's about the same. He's always been great and has always been able to have good matches. He really should have begged WWE to take him, because he would have made it at some point.

 

Samoa Joe - An easy NO with TNA. He was my pick for the best wrestler in the world in 2004 and his career went down the tubes in TNA. It's great that he has got consistent paychecks but he's a joke of himself. The biggest problem is that he never improved. He wrestles spot for spot the same matches he did back in the day.

 

Daniels - I'd go with Yes. I always enjoyed his in-ring work and him and Kaz made for a great team. He's always been really versatile and his comedic work has been great.

 

Kaz - Yes. I never got Kaz until they put him with Daniels.

[Jmare007]

So maybe sometimes it's confidence or motivation. I don't know what Gedo & Jado saw, but nobody else was seeing it.

They knew he was good because he showed a lot of promise in 09' before he went to the US.

[Matt D]

Working smart and doing little things is so, so, so much more impressive to me at the age I am now, to the point where I sort of look down on people who value athleticism and innovative moves and stiffness and bumping and fighting spirit or what not more. I feel bad about that, but it seems like something that we're sort of supposed to grow out of as fans in favor of storytelling and nuance and selling. Granted, a lot of those earlier things can be tools in a broader storytelling, but they're blunt tools and feel really empty to me without the rest. It's all subjective but some of it is more flashy candy and some of it is more studied and learned craftsmanship of intent.

 

Yeah, I'm kind of a jerk. Sorry.

[rzombie1988]

Working smart and doing little things is so, so, so much more impressive to me at the age I am now, to the point where I sort of look down on people who value athleticism and innovative moves and stiffness and bumping and fighting spirit or what not more. I feel bad about that, but it seems like something that we're sort of supposed to grow out of as fans in favor of storytelling and nuance and selling. Granted, a lot of those earlier things can be tools in a broader storytelling, but they're blunt tools and feel really empty to me without the rest. It's all subjective but some of it is more flashy candy and some of it is more studied and learned craftsmanship of intent.

I think the most important part about it is that it is virtually timeless. Jerry Lawler worked a classic with Miz in his 50's. Someone like an Adrian Neville is going to be totally screwed in-ring at same age because he won't be able to do any of his current stuff.