goodhelmet Posted September 21, 2005 Report Share Posted September 21, 2005 Loss, I am interested in your revised star rating for Maeda-Fujinami since you were the one who turned me onto the match in the first place a couple of years ago. Also, where on your list does Asuka-Nagayo rank? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted September 21, 2005 Author Report Share Posted September 21, 2005 I ended up going ****1/4 for Maeda/Fujinami and ****1/2 for Asuka/Nagayo. Maeda/Fujinami is #56, Asuka/Nagayo is #26. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted September 21, 2005 Report Share Posted September 21, 2005 I am not surprised that you have 12/6/96 ahead of 6/9/95 but I don't see anything written on it on why you have it so high. As for the 86 match, I think you are making a grave error but I haven't seen the match since I first picked up the Choshu DVD from DG so it would be difficult for me to make an effective argument. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted September 21, 2005 Author Report Share Posted September 21, 2005 For me, all things equal (and really, they are), the only thing I can use to say one match is better than the other is to compare Kobashi in 6/9/95 to Akiyama in 12/6/96. And I think Akiyama is *slightly* better at his role than Kobashi is at his. Akiyama isn't fighting injury, he's fighting inexperience in this environment and he's finding himself in the same place others have been before him. Kobashi is great, don't get me wrong, but he's still awfully spry for someone who has what's supposed to be a worthless knee. There's not a way to phrase it where it doesn't sound like I'm insulting the '95 match, because I'm not, but that's the deciding factor for me -- I like Akiyama in his match better than Kobashi in his match. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Cooke Posted September 22, 2005 Report Share Posted September 22, 2005 Keep watching. I am bored at work and need some wrestling content to read now that the main DVDVR board is filled with mostly idiots!!!!!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted September 23, 2005 Author Report Share Posted September 23, 2005 Just watched Misawa/Kawada from 07/24/95, which is a hell of a sprint that gets a lot of praise from me. Misawa does so much to put over Kawada without losing to him here, and even though I knew the outcome in advance, I still bought the powerbomb as a nearfall because 6/9/95 was in my mind. Great match! Next stop ... all the ROH I have that I haven't watched yet. I have maybe one or two 2003 discs before I delve head first into 2004! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Cooke Posted September 23, 2005 Report Share Posted September 23, 2005 Be careful with ROH. Be selective and don't watch too much at a time or else you could want to not watch another wrestling show ever again. And I am indeed an ROH fan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted September 23, 2005 Author Report Share Posted September 23, 2005 Just watched London/Danielson from 04/12/03. Lots of things I loved about the match, and lots of things that did nothing for me. I'd like to give this a second viewing sometime after seeing the 12/07/02 match first. I thought Danielson was a great heel, but I thought London was way too Indy Innovation for my liking. He played his role well enough, but Danielson was the one with the charisma. The next match on my disc was Joe/London from Death Before Dishonor and London was getting an enormous pop. I stopped the disc at that point, but I think he owes Danielson a debt of gratitude for getting as over as he did in ROH. Things I liked were Dragon going all Destroyer early on and having fun with the matwork, London's headbutts on the top rope to knock Danielson off balance, Danielson's great limb work, the crowd (while still a little annoying, they actually got behind the babyface and booed the heel at times -- MAJOR testament to both guys there) and the best of three falls stipulation, just because the first fall left me wanting a lot more. What I liked less was that some of the moves weren't really sold as long as they should have been. When London caught Danielson with that springboard Koppo kick, or whatever you'd call it, and Danielson sold it like he was completely loopy and disoriented, I thought it would take more than 45 seconds for him to have a counter to London's next attempted move and be ready to move into the next sequence. Still, for two guys who were relative unknowns at this point with no experience working in front of a large crowd, this is an excellent match and one I enjoyed watching. More seasoning and I think they could eventually capture a Flair/Steamboat vibe -- they had the right idea going in that direction, and I think that on a global scale, they just may have been more with the times in 2003 than Flair and Steamboat were in '89. So, the whole, the good will of the match, for lack of a better term, makes it come across as being even better than it is. Nice match. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted September 23, 2005 Author Report Share Posted September 23, 2005 Homicide/Corino ... Wow. Talk about a match that had more violence than any match I've seen in WWE in some time. They sort of overdid it with the nearfalls, but that's really picking nits. Some of the parts were probably a little excessive or gruesome, but this was a hell of a spectacle regardless. This match had more heat than anything I've seen in ROH at this point, and the biggest compliment I can pay this match is that it made me forget I was watching an indy. Didn't quite make sense to start a blood feud blowoff with a collar-and-elbow tie up, but stuff happens. Need some time to figure out where I stand on this completely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted September 23, 2005 Report Share Posted September 23, 2005 Just so you know, this wasn't the blowoff to the feud. They had a barbed wire match later that year that was the blowoff. If this match had huge heat, the blowoff was the complete opposite end of the spectrum... silence throughout. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted October 5, 2005 Author Report Share Posted October 5, 2005 I've watched Joe/Punk I, but not Joe/Punk II yet. Probably tomorrow. I want to see how the two compare before ranking either one here. There were some things I really liked in 06/12/04 (pacing, suspense toward the end, even Mark Nulty's announcing ... at times), and then there were some things I didn't like at all (picking on one fan in the crowd which confuses them even more about who to root for since he was probably annoying everyone around him mainly). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted October 5, 2005 Report Share Posted October 5, 2005 Oh, there is no comparison between the two. #2 blows away the first match BUT you need the first match to truly appreciate the second... which is wierd coming from my mouth. And you need both to appreciate the third. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anarchistxx Posted October 5, 2005 Report Share Posted October 5, 2005 Joe v Punk II + III blow away the first one, which I didn't like a great deal. II is the best of the series, and quite easily the 2004 MOTY, but III is great as well. Speaking of ROH, I've just picked up Third Anniversary I-II-III so lets hope they live up to the expectations. Especially looking forward to the Aries/Cabana Cage match which I hear is excellent. By the way, any English fans know where I can get some more recent ROH DVD's? The only ones I can get hold of are ones from Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted October 5, 2005 Report Share Posted October 5, 2005 ROH doesn't ship to England? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Cooke Posted October 5, 2005 Report Share Posted October 5, 2005 Loss, Joe/Punk I was excellent at the time when you thought neither could do better. And once II and III came along, they made I look amatuer. Joe's improvement from October 2004 - present makes me never want to watch any pre-October 2004 work from him, that is how great he has really got. Enjoy and more thoughts. Tim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted October 6, 2005 Author Report Share Posted October 6, 2005 Added the WWF 80s stuff I've watched so far to the list. Slaughter v Sheik 6/16/84 - ***** Bret v Perfect 10/02/89 - **** Adonis/Murdoch v Slaughter/Daniels 07/23/84 - ***1/2 Explanations in other thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted October 6, 2005 Author Report Share Posted October 6, 2005 Also added the following: Hogan v Savage 04/02/89 - **** Savage v Steamboat 03/29/87 - ***1/2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted October 6, 2005 Author Report Share Posted October 6, 2005 Added: Bret v Steamboat 03/08/86 - ***3/4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anarchistxx Posted October 6, 2005 Report Share Posted October 6, 2005 ROH doesn't ship to England? Yes, but at a pricely sum, which I am unwilling to pay. I may have to make concessions for Joe/Kobashi mind... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHawk Posted October 6, 2005 Report Share Posted October 6, 2005 I'm glad to see the love for the Bret-Steamboat match from Boston. One of the greatest matches that many fans have never seen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted October 7, 2005 Author Report Share Posted October 7, 2005 I needed a break from 80s WWF footage, so I decided to watch something else. Ric Flair v Butch Reed 08/09/85 Man, you've GOT to see this. One of Flair's best matches ever and definitely Reed's career highlight. Sadly, they show 50:38 of a 60:00 draw and we miss a very important part of the match. 25 minutes in is when the clipping happens, and it couldn't happen at a worse time, as the first half of this match is just FLAWLESS. Reed knows so many ways to work a headlock and Flair knows how to put him over, which shouldn't surprise anyone. The matwork is very 1970s AJPW-ish with Flair totally unable to figure out Reed and everything he attempts always going back to the side headlock. They have some really good things going here that I don't want to spoil, but to spice things up, Reed eventually switches to a front facelock and they start working close nearfalls off of it. There are rough spots. Reed chokes Flair out repeatedly around the 35-45 minute mark, which almost makes Flair seem a little sympathetic at times. Flair also does some of his usual spots, which wouldn't bother me if he didn't do them at such a weird time in the match. They do lose the crowd for a short spell around the 40-45 minute mark, but they quickly bring them back once Reed starts busting out his awesome signature offense -- bulldog, top-rope shoulderblock and lariat, specifically. Reed has the tools to be great, but Flair is really the one holding this together, and it is obvious at times. This isn't as glaring as some carry jobs though; Reed isn't an Ultimate Warrior and is perfectly capable, even if 60 minutes may have been just a *little* too much for him. 45 minutes probably would have been no sweat. ****1/4 for what's shown, but probably would be higher without 10 minutes shaved out of the middle of the match Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted October 7, 2005 Report Share Posted October 7, 2005 I am interested in what you thought of the Reed-Murdoch match that went nearly as long on Mid South House Show 75. I have never thought Flair and Murdoch were very similar in thier style. so the fact Reed went long with both is an interesting comparison I would like to see made. EDIT: You can follow that up with watching the Murdoch-Reed matchup on 77 to compare the two matches. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted October 7, 2005 Author Report Share Posted October 7, 2005 Yeah, I'm probably going to watch that later tonight, provided I have the time. I'd definitely like to compare them to each other. I'm curious if the spots where Reed seemed directionless were really because he was directionless or because Flair was calling the match and drawing blanks. The Murdoch match should answer that. Also, a good way to compare Flair and Murdoch as workers -- how do they stack up to each other wrestling the same guy in the same time period for the same length of time? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted October 7, 2005 Report Share Posted October 7, 2005 That's what I am talking about. they both went long with Reed in Mid South and both have what are considered two different styles. I want to know who got the better end result. I wonder if we can find matches of Fair vs. Murdoch so we can do a Redd-Murdoch_Flair roundtable set. I imagine if we look hard enough we can do this with several wrestlers. Too bad the Fantastics and RnRs never wrestled each other (to my knowledge) or we could do a Fans-RnR-MX roundtable set. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted October 7, 2005 Author Report Share Posted October 7, 2005 Rogers and Fulton never faced Morton and Gibson, no, but I believe the "new" Fantastics (Bobby & Jackie Fulton) did in the Virgin Islands in '89. Tim says the match is very disappointing. I wish they had wrestled each other at some point as well. I know they were in a four corners match (MX/RnRs/Fans/Guerreros) in Mid South that is really, really awesome, but that would be out of place on a round robin set. If only we had a time machine ... Flair and Murdoch feuded in the NWA in late 1986/early 1987, but I don't know if any of the matches made TV or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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