My 665 favorite matches

[goodhelmet]

I'll have to look but they may both be featured on the Mid Atlantic set as well.

[Guest Cam Chaos]

Joe v Punk II + III blow away the first one, which I didn't like a great deal. II is the best of the series, and quite easily the 2004 MOTY, but III is great as well.

 

Speaking of ROH, I've just picked up Third Anniversary I-II-III so lets hope they live up to the expectations. Especially looking forward to the Aries/Cabana Cage match which I hear is excellent.

 

By the way, any English fans know where I can get some more recent ROH DVD's? The only ones I can get hold of are ones from <March 05 and I really want to get my hands on some of the new stuff. Any ideas?

http://www.1upgames.co.uk/ Have you tried here?

[Tim Cooke]

Rogers/Fulton as babyfaces wrestled Morton/Gibson as heels in April 1989 in the Virgin Islands. Lynch has the handhelds.

 

Disappointing.

 

But not as disappointed I have been with most of the Fantastics matches from the new Mid South stuff. I have never been a Fulton hater but I am becoming one.

 

Of note, on Mid South House Shows 74, watch the Dundee/Mantel beatdown of Tommy Rogers as the face in peril.

 

Then watch the beatdown on Rogers by Eaton/Condrey on Cornette's Produced Midnight Express Volume 2 (it is also on Barnett's set but I am not sure which disc).

 

I have really grown to appreciate Ricky Morton as a top FIP guy, but Rogers blows my mind, with his hard bumps and willingness to put over the other teams moves as death.

 

The Clash I match is another example.

 

The winner for most varied comebacks that get off during a FIP segment is Morton from WrestleWar 90 where he does the sunset flip spot, runs across the ring to lesp on to Eaton who stun guns him on the turnbuckle, Lane goes to powerslam him and Morton slips out-rolls up Lane-Lane blind tags-Eaton hits swinging neckbreaker, and two more I am forgetting. That match has so many incredible spots yet I couldn't dig into it as more than really good (***1/2) for some reason.

 

In short, Morton and Rogers were so good as Face in Peril that it puts to shame guys today.

 

The 2 RnR vs. Savage/Poffo matches from Memphis are also top 5 matches of all time for me right now (favorite-not best) as they are just doing it for me.

[Loss]

Tim, I'm curious ... have you come across any other Fantastics matches where they do the double team make a wish spot they did against the Dirty White Boys in the TV match? I'm probably not calling it the right thing, but you know what spot I'm talking about.

[goodhelmet]

I have never been a Fulton hater but I am becoming one.

Then I can only imagine how you felt sitting through the Fantastics shoot or the MX-Fans roundtable. How n the hell did Rogers put up with that guy for so many years on the road? he never shuts the hell up.

 

Back to Fulton, what specifically about Fulton do you not like in the ring? I haven't seen the matches on the house shows yet but everything else I have seen from the Fans (MX comp, Barnett set, All Japan, NWA set, etc) has been solid gold. Maybe Rogers was just that good where he hid Fulton's weaknesses.

[Tim Cooke]

Loss- haven't seen that spot repeated but still have a lot of Mid South house show macthes with them to go through.

 

Will- Fulton in the Mid South matches has been very contempt to sit with an armbar for too long. I do enjoy his willingness to get the young girls into the match. Maybe it was because he was next to Rogers....I dunno. I think he is really strong in the 1988 MX series but I think his FIP skills lack.

 

In the ROH shoot interview, he gets so excited about wrestling. It is cool to see someone so passionate.

 

Tim

[goodhelmet]

He gets excited about wrestling but he could have let Rogers get in a sentence or two.

 

Also, I agree 100% that Rogers is an awesome FIP. I think the Fans-MX No DQ Mid South match that Loss and I reviewed here would have been ten times better had Rogers been playing FIP.

[anarchistxx]

http://www.1upgames.co.uk/ Have you tried here?

Yes, but they have no new ones, just ones from like February.

 

Plus, they are overpriced, 4.99 for postage.

[Loss]

Rock & Roll Express v Dirty White Boys - Mid South 04/15/85

 

This is a really uninspiring tag match. I was expecting much more from this, based on the awesome TV match between the Fantastics and the Dirty White Boys, but this is the Steamboat/Santana v Dream Team of Mid South matches -- not much horribly offensive about it, but nothing AT ALL to get excited about, despite looking like a terrific match on paper. Morton is FIP five minutes into this and a lot of the showmanship spots that usually take place early on in RRX matches aren't on display here at all; the heat seems more obligatory than genuine. Some of the DWB's double team moves are just silly (a double atomic drop??) and the way they move from story arc to story arc is really lacking. Gibson makes the hot tag and goes for an abdominal stretch as his big move?? Silly finish too. I'd say this was by-the-numbers, but that would have been a major improvement over what this match actually was. DWB's don't look too great here either.

 

Jake Roberts v Brad Armstrong - Mid South 04/16/85; New Orleans, LA

 

Jake is really something else, and I've only grown to appreciate him in the past month or so since seeing more of his work. There are few guys I've ever seen who are better at timing, facial expressions, body language and conveying a story. He really knows how to structure a match and get under the skin of the crowd and does it exceptionally well here just by being himself and turning up the volume a little. He finds all sorts of cruel ways to torture the virtuous Armstrong, who as usual, owns your fucking face. Jake keeps yelling at the ref, pulling Brad's hair and twisting his body into a pretzel while laughing about it and Armstrong keeps attempting to fight back without compromising his character. When he finally snaps, it's glorious, but it's also what Jake wanted, as he quickly gets an opening and makes the most of it. It's as basic a story as you'll find in wrestling, but it's also as effective as just about anything. The heat starting out here isn't really all that great, but they build big and have the crowd chanting for Brad just a few minutes in. I think part of that is Armstrong's great selling, as he's not afraid to put over Jake's psychological game. I love how the fans rush to check on Brad and make sure he's okay when he goes outside, and Jake manages to do something in the ring to keep the story moving along while Brad is still down selling damage -- he threatens to climb the top rope and doesn't come down, almost gets DQd for trying and then does the Ric Flair beg off from the ref when he gets warned. This is 15 minutes into the match, and by this time, they're only really starting with the meat and potatoes of the match, as Jake has attempted his first cover and has Armstrong in a camel clutch. The only black mark I can make here is that Jake is still getting a certain amount of cheers, as the males in the crowd are chanting big for him to do the DDT. It's amazing how over Jake got that move, and how others who use the move either use it as a transition or have gotten nowhere the heat Jake has gotten for doing it. Armstrong's comeback to set things up for the final stretch is really cool too, as he nearly takes Jake's head off with an awesome lariat out of the corner and struggles just to stand up straight. This is Jake at his best with Armstrong doing a really good job wrestling his match. This would make a terrific companion to Jake/DiBiase 4/24/89 on the WWF DVDs, to see Jake work a very similar match where he takes almost no bumps but still manages to sell and structure things well, only this time as a heel. 20+ minutes of awesomeness.

 

****

[goodhelmet]

Did you mean Steamboat? If so. I agree with you. That tag match was about two particular spots and nothing else.

 

Also, I was hoping the Jake match was good but thought it would be Armstrong ruling the day. At least there was one hidden gem on those shows so far.

[Loss]

Yeah, Steamboat. My bad. Edited to fix that. Still need to watch Reed/Murdoch, but need to get in the right frame of mind for a long match.

[Tim Cooke]

I have a new ***** match to add to my very short list.

 

Santo v Casas from July 18 1987 is so incredible. When I first saw this 5 years ago, I wanted Rey Jr v Juventud pace, spots, etc. Thus, I disliked it. Watched it for the first time in years Wednesday Night and it blew my mind. I am going through all of the Santo/Casas stuff I have (in somewhat chronological order) and this is balls out. Wrestling today doesn't connect with the fans like this match did. That sucks.

 

Casas was a perfect rudo here, making all of Santo's offense look amazing. The one thing I noticed that I think bothered me in the past but now I get is when the rudo beatdown is occuring, when a technico takes a backdrop, they don't get good height and make it look average. I thought it was laziness or just not doing it right but it isn't. It is so when the technico goes for his revenge spots and throws the rudo in the air for a back drop, the rudo gets incredible height and makes the technico look awesome. This match works perfect in 2005, but happened in 1987.

 

I am stoked to see the UWA 1991 Comml tape match between the two and the 9/19/97 Mask vs. Hair match next week.

 

Tim

[Loss]

The match was an interesting case for me in that I wasn't all that blown away while it was happening, but five minutes after it was over, I realized how amazing it was. Agreed on the ***** rating.

[Loss]

Ric Flair v Ron Garvin 02/02/86

 

A repeated viewing has helped the case for this match quite a bit. I didn't care for this much the first few times I saw it, if only because the production values of TBS weren't that great at the time and they practically muted the crowd to get in commentary. The copy I watched today seems to be in better shape and the heat is much more audible, and as a result I enjoyed this much more. Flair is *so* good against Garvin because Garvin brings something out of him no one else can. As Frank Jewett once said, he transforms from consummate champion to emotional fighter against Garvin. This match is structured in a way where they start off wrestling and tempers flare and the rest of the match is more of a fight. Very stiff by 1986 NWA standards -- everything looks really snug and crisp. Total non-formula and definitely worth seeing.

 

***1/2

[Loss]

Curt Hennig v Nick Bockwinkel 12/31/86

 

Man, I want so badly to give this the full monty, but I just can't. It's a hell of a match, though, with all sorts of great mat wrestling and cool counters that you don't see every day. Picture Destroyer/Baba meets Destroyer/Hansen in terms of the style of match it is. Bockwinkel isn't quite as inventive as Destroyer, but he's close. In some ways, though, that's why I can't go as high with this as I would want. In 1976, this would have been *****, no questions asked. In 1986, it's just a little less impressive, because the standards had changed and this match, as awesome as it is, is also behind the times. I thought about the best matches of '86 and I thought of Jumbo/Tenryu v Choshu/Yatsu, Flair v Garvin, Flair v Windham and Maeda v Fujinami. This is definitely on the level with most of those matches in terms of quality, but all of those matches are more contemporary than this one. Bockwinkel does things that would have gotten (and probably did get) great heat in the 60s and 70s -- pushing the ropes back so Hennig can't reach, dropkicking immediately after the opening bell handshake, etc -- but here, the Las Vegas crowd seemed to only react to the big spots. Still, an easy choice for best AWA match I've ever seen, best Bockwinkel match I've ever seen, and best Curt Hennig match I've ever seen ... all by a country mile. I do think everyone should go out of their way to see this, because it represents everything good and bad about the AWA in one fell swoop. The wrestling was superb, but ultimately, it wasn't really the style the fans were wanting to see.

[Loss]

Steven Regal v Brad Armstrong - WCW Saturday Night 08/28/93

 

Wow, this match certainly snuck up out of nowhere. Some of the smoothest matwork you'll ever see in a US ring, with Brad outclassing Regal early, including CLIMBING his body while keeping him in a hammerlock at one point. Regal slaps him very hard to piss him off and then starts throwing wicked forearms to his face and stomach. Too many really cool sequences to list them all here and do this match justice. What I also like is the way the heat builds, in that it starts as a very silent crowd that slowly finds themselves getting into it, with the women chanting big for Brad to come back. Regal's elbow to Brad's face off the ropes is sick. The struggle for moves is awesome too, with Brad's counter to Regal's butterfly suplex attempt looking great and his staple Southern comeback later looking great. Check out his punches and kneelift, not to mention his always-great dropkick. Regal even cheats to win, which considering that he's being pushed and Brad isn't, is a nice extra step to keep Armstrong looking good. Not that it mattered -- Brad Armstrong is the most talented wrestler of all time to never get anything resembling a push, unless you count some on-again, off-again stuff in Mid South, Georgia and SMW. With his look and talent, keeping him in a strong midcard role seems like it would be a given. Not a hidden classic or anything, but 10-minute TV matches like this coming out of nowhere are what made WCW so fun.

 

***

[Loss]

Rick Rude v Dustin Rhodes - WCW Saturday Night 08/28/93

 

Very solid, basic match that gets the crowd mega-involved and features some nice simple work. It's worked slower than you might expect for these guys, with Rude masterfully selling Dustin's arm work early on throughout the match. Rude does a little too much taunting and posing for my tastes, but it gets great heat, so I can't really say it didn't have a purpose. Dustin is pretty awesome here, with Rude dropping forearms in Dustin's back and Irish whipping him into the turnbuckle (which looks much better than when HHH normally does that spot) and Dustin doing some cool selling. Best spot of the match is definitely Rude's belly-to-belly suplex out of the bearhug when Dustin starts countering. Rude has a formula that's in full effect here, and sometimes it's weird to see guys try all the same spots against Rude every time out and also for guys to always use the same counters against Rude, only for him to continue using him. I'm a huge fan of Rude, but that's the one thing that always bothered me about him, and he messes up a big spot off the top rope toward the end as well, though he did cover for it. Final minutes are still very cool, though, when Dustin starts coming back with his trademark stuff and Rude tries everything he can to slow him down and finally doing the Bret Hart pin out of the sleeper for the finish. If we got free TV main events in 2005 with such strong command of the basics, though, I wouldn't complain at all.

[Loss]

Midnight Express v Rock & Roll Express - NWA 04/12/86

 

My GOD, everybody ate their Wheaties on April 12, 1986! This is paced like it's a New Japan tag with all the quick movement and fast tags in and out, but it's structured like a classic American tag match in terms of the heels showing ass early, then putting the faces in peril before the faces find a way to go over. Robert Gibson is better than I've ever seen him in this match. Cornette is amazing in that he can manage to participate in great spots even while above the ring in a cage. This is so far above the Wrestle War '90 match I love so much that I really need to rewatch and reconsider my thoughts on that one. In fact, this is probably on the level with most of the MX/Fans matches and better than many of them, which means it's one of the best US tags there's ever been. The finish is a really complex sequence that had to involve perfect timing from all four guys to work, and it worked. Nearfalls were just as convincing early on as they would be later in the match. A shame that it was only broadcast on TV in Japan, but at the same time, it's great that it's still available. Cornette calls this the best match ever between the two teams, and I can't disagree with that assessment at all.

 

****1/2, maybe higher after I watch it again

 

Jerry Lawler v Bill Dundee - Memphis 06/06/83

 

For 2005, this is a great match. For 1983, it's out of this world. This is as great as anything to take place in 1983, and probably my pick for MOTY from that year at this point. The way Dundee moves around the ring is a sight to be seen, and the way they structure the match with Dundee controlling early on, given the Memphis mythology of Lawler being a slow starter, is perfect. This is also wrestled at a faster pace and has more heat than any US match I've seen in quite some time. Lawler throws the best punches of anyone ever, and these two are two of the best wrestlers to ever live that don't get enough credit for what they accomplished. The Memphis style would have worked on a national level because it was all about connecting with and relating to the people by giving them stars that are like people they either know and love or know and hate. This match is the best example of that type of thinking I know of. Nice finish too.

 

****1/2, again, maybe higher after I watch it again

[goodhelmet]

For the MX-RNRs, Dan is going to send me the Superstars on the Superstation 1986 special (which has an MX-RNRs matchup) and it will be interesting to see how the 2 stack up against each other, esp. since I just heard the Mulkeys claim that these NWA guys could wrestle the same guys every night and never have 2 matches alike.

[Loss]

I have that special myself. The Superstars on the Superstation match is good, but nowhere near the best.

[Tim Cooke]

Loss- the 6/6/83 Dundee vs. Lawler match on the 'Tim Cooke Comp' is one of two versions. I think the better version is on the Memphis Arena Bouts 1983 Disc 2 that Will has in that it has more skips but shows more of a variety of matches.

 

Track that down.

 

Also, how did you like 12/30/85 Dundee vs. Lawler?

 

Tim

[Loss]

Rock & Roll Express v Ivan Koloff & Kruscher Kruschev - NWA 07/09/85

 

Another outstanding match! This is the closest I've seen to 6/9/95 wrestled in the US. There are probably more differences than similarities, but the similarities are striking enough that they stand out. There's a feeling out process early on that escalates and builds so effectively to the next sequence, which builds to something even better, and it continues throughout the match. Where this match succeeds is in pacing everything so well. 35 minute tag matches in this era weren't too common, but matches like this show that they could have been and it might have worked. The only glaring problem in the match were Morton coming in so quickly after getting pummeled and making the hot tag to Gibson. After such a great 10 minutes of underdog wrestling, it felt out of place. I want to talk about each guy and what he does in this match that makes him so great.

 

Krusher Kruschev -- The worst worker in this match, but he knows how to work as a big man better than almost anyone on TV today, and he's still great. I love the Kruschev/Morton stuff, because Morton is the consummate underdog of his team, and Kruschev is a feared monster, so their interactions are perfect for fans like myself who prefer wrestling to be as melodramatic as possible. I also like the way Kruscher sets up his punches so well, just balling his fist up and telegraphing it ahead of time makes it seem far more important and also does a lot to get the girls screaming for Gibson to see what's going on. Great crowd control. Kruschev is not the leader of his team, but he's terrific.

 

Ivan Koloff - Koloff is just awesome in this match. Check out that neckbreaker and his bumping. He's probably pushing 50 here and is still bumping like he's in Madison Square Garden as WWWF champ. I like that the heat work here is long enough to get the point across without going so long that it gets boring. I credit Koloff for that, because he seemed to be the one calling the shots.

 

Robert Gibson - Morton and Gibson both play FIP in this match, but I actually think Gibson is better at it in this particular encounter. He's not as charismatic as Morton, but he's probably as good of a seller. Morton's saves are also great, which is where the 6/9/95 tag references come in, as Gibson comes across more like Kenta Kobashi than ... well ... Robert Gibson, and Morton looks like he's doing everything he can to help his partner out.

 

Ricky Morton - He's on the apron more than anything here, but when he's in, he's terrific, and he's great at rallying the crowd on the outside and timing his saves at just the right moments.

 

A few things in the presentation bothered me, namely Magnum pointing out at the 8-minute mark or so on commentary that Morton shouldn't be doing a test of strength so "early" in the match, which totally gave away that they were going long. I also think that as good as Koloff and Kruschev were, they could have stood to be even more devilish. They came across more as a machine than as ruthless assholes most of the time in this match, and the latter would have been nice.

 

Hard to say who's carrying this, because the babyface work is probably the strongest point of the match, but without Ivan Koloff, the match wouldn't have been so well-timed, with him directing traffic as much as he appeared to be doing here, he deserves a healthy share of credit.

 

Way cool to see fans jumping up and down, screaming and hugging each other to celebrate the first tag title win of the Rock and Rolls. Koloff, sport that he is, stays in the ring for a while after the match to show his frustration and despair.

 

****1/4

[Loss]

Loss- the 6/6/83 Dundee vs. Lawler match on the 'Tim Cooke Comp' is one of two versions.  I think the better version is on the Memphis Arena Bouts 1983 Disc 2 that Will has in that it has more skips but shows more of a variety of matches.  

 

Track that down.

 

Also, how did you like 12/30/85 Dundee vs. Lawler?

 

Tim

I have that disc and plan on watching it later.

 

Haven't watched 12/30/85 Dundee/Lawler yet. At this point, I'm watching all the non-Memphis stuff first because after watching Lawler/Dundee and highlights of the Lawler/Mantel v Dundee/Landell feud, I know I won't want to take breaks from it.

 

Lots of obscure WCW and old territory matches to wade through, along with what I hope are some kickass Mariko Yoshida matches!

[sek69]

It's funny, a few years later Krusher Krushchev suddenly was a completely different gimmick and personality. It took me a long time to realize who Krusher was since he was ingrained in my brain as a huge monster.

[Loss]

Ditto Demolition Ax, aka Masked Superstar Bill Eadie.