goodhelmet Posted February 20, 2014 Report Share Posted February 20, 2014 Exactly... There is a reason people get choked up during movies or pissed off at match results. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted February 20, 2014 Report Share Posted February 20, 2014 Returning to the discussion of suspending disbelief, I think it's important to point out that suspending disbelief is not the same as belief. When you suspend your disbelief you do not then believe what you're watching is real. You are simply allowing yourself to buy into what you are seeing; not as real competition, but as something more than grown men in spandex running around like idiots pretending to beat each other up. Same goes with any other art form: when you watch a film, you never believe that what you are seeing is real, but it has to be something more to you than people standing in front of a camera playing make-believe. I've long been aware of the meaning, as Like I said up the thread: I'm well aware of the term from Coleridge on down, and various other people given their twist to it. Hell, even the side tangent of "plausibility" within the fictional universe is largely bullshit to give people the out of why they "believe". I tend to think that one doesn't need to "believe" on any level to "like" and "enjoy" something fictional. You just have to like and enjoy it. Also that if one wants to be reflective, they likely can figure out why they liked something... of which "I believed it!" really isn't a factor. I've cried listening to the song "Two Of Us" by the Beatles. It doesn't mean I suspended disbelief while listening to it. There are just times when the thought of my brother crosses my mind when it's on. That sure as hell isn't what Paul was thinking about when he wrote it: he claims Linda, while most think a decent amount of Lennon was on his thoughts. Again, I'm not saying that others don't "suspend disbelief" if that's how they want to term their pro wrestling experience. But don't think that it's a universal rule that applies to everyone, or that it's The Only Way To Watch Pro Wrestling And Enjoy It. That's a bit like saying the only way to enjoy pro wrestling is 1993 All Japan. People are different. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted February 20, 2014 Report Share Posted February 20, 2014 This thread was going pretty well. I think suspension of disbelief is absolutely fundamental to watching and engaging with movies or anything else on an emotional level. I don't see how you can really have emotional investment without it. You have to buy into the world of the characters to some extent to feel any sort of empathy with them. I can give you a stack of books as tall as this building I'm sitting in that discuss this inside and out too. Unless Matt D and jdw have literally reinvented how people watch and engage with things -- in which case quickly write a book about it, it might make you some money -- I suspect that they actually are suspending some disbelief when they are watching the stuff. It must be so sad to be you. I'm not saying that as a snark, but genuinely. I can't imagine being unable to suspend disbelief when watching movies. That you can't imagine other people seeing and enjoying things differently than yourself isn't something sad about me, but sad about you. Unless you are a cyborg or something, I call BS on feeling emotion while not suspending disbelief. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted February 20, 2014 Report Share Posted February 20, 2014 This thread was going pretty well. I think suspension of disbelief is absolutely fundamental to watching and engaging with movies or anything else on an emotional level. I don't see how you can really have emotional investment without it. You have to buy into the world of the characters to some extent to feel any sort of empathy with them. I can give you a stack of books as tall as this building I'm sitting in that discuss this inside and out too. Unless Matt D and jdw have literally reinvented how people watch and engage with things -- in which case quickly write a book about it, it might make you some money -- I suspect that they actually are suspending some disbelief when they are watching the stuff. It must be so sad to be you. I'm not saying that as a snark, but genuinely. I can't imagine being unable to suspend disbelief when watching movies. That you can't imagine other people seeing and enjoying things differently than yourself isn't something sad about me, but sad about you. Unless you are a cyborg or something, I call BS on feeling emotion while not suspending disbelief. Man, you can relate yourself and your experiences to a story while mostly seeing it on a craft level. It just takes an awesome ego? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted February 20, 2014 Report Share Posted February 20, 2014 Even hardcore structuralism is a study of emotional effects generated by whatever techniques Matt, if you didn't ever suspend your disbelief you wouldn't get a sense of what it felt like. That's why I call BS. If you say "no I don't suspend my disbelief, I watch it completely without emotion as a kind of intellectual exercise", then I can buy that. I'll think you're a weird Spock man, but I can buy it. Emotion without suspending disbelief I do not buy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted February 20, 2014 Report Share Posted February 20, 2014 Well John talks about all the drugs he did in his early 20s when he was getting into wrestling. I don't know how to explain it for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WingedEagle Posted February 20, 2014 Report Share Posted February 20, 2014 This thread was going pretty well. I think suspension of disbelief is absolutely fundamental to watching and engaging with movies or anything else on an emotional level. I don't see how you can really have emotional investment without it. You have to buy into the world of the characters to some extent to feel any sort of empathy with them. I can give you a stack of books as tall as this building I'm sitting in that discuss this inside and out too. Unless Matt D and jdw have literally reinvented how people watch and engage with things -- in which case quickly write a book about it, it might make you some money -- I suspect that they actually are suspending some disbelief when they are watching the stuff. It must be so sad to be you. I'm not saying that as a snark, but genuinely. I can't imagine being unable to suspend disbelief when watching movies. That you can't imagine other people seeing and enjoying things differently than yourself isn't something sad about me, but sad about you. Unless you are a cyborg or something, I call BS on feeling emotion while not suspending disbelief. What's your point? I buy into the story of a movie or a wrestling match without believing its real. I can get fully invested in things varying from The Devil Wears Prada to The Wire to True Detective to Hokuto vs. Kandori to Cena vs. Cesaro without for a split second believing any of it is real. Its not only BS, but some high on a kite, elitist BS to tell me I can't enjoy it unless I convince myself that fiction is in fact non-fiction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted February 20, 2014 Report Share Posted February 20, 2014 This thread was going pretty well. I think suspension of disbelief is absolutely fundamental to watching and engaging with movies or anything else on an emotional level. I don't see how you can really have emotional investment without it. Again, just because you can't doesn't mean that it's not possible. In fact, look back over the thread: most people seem to have an Angry Emotion when Wrestling Sucks and fucks with what they claim is their Suspended Disbelief. "He fucked up moves left and right... it just wasn't believable. Pissed me off." That's an emotional reaction from looking at the match analytically and intellectually. You have to buy into the world of the characters to some extent to feel any sort of empathy with them. Honestly... I don't really give a shit about having empathy for pro wrestling work. Bob is selling his ass off while Muraco is working over the arm. You may want to have empathy for "Bob" having a damaged arm and being in pain. I don't. I just see it as him selling his ass off, in contrast to say Patterson or Muraco going all Fifth Of Gin selling at times in similar situations. It doesn't at all *ever* cross my mind that he's "hurt". Even when I'm watching it with friends, I'm tossing out: "Awesome selling" and "He's selling the hell out of that". I can give you a stack of books as tall as this building I'm sitting in that discuss this inside and out too. And I, and others, have disagreed with you on Books or stuff you drag over to support your views. Unless Matt D and jdw have literally reinvented how people watch and engage with things -- in which case quickly write a book about it, it might make you some money -- I suspect that they actually are suspending some disbelief when they are watching the stuff. Since you seem to know what I'm thinking when I'm watching a match, may I suggest you watch from 10:54 - 15:23 (video time) of this match and tell me what I'm thinking when I watch them work the Dusty Lounger: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HWTrMvJEOVE And exactly how I suspend disbelief during it and work up a big case of empathy for Bob and/or Dusty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted February 20, 2014 Report Share Posted February 20, 2014 Category error there Winged Eagle, suspension of disbelief does not mean believing it's real. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted February 20, 2014 Report Share Posted February 20, 2014 Oh man, I want to see Parv figuring out what people are thinking during stretches of matches. Do me during Andre vs Warrior SNME or a 2002 RVD match. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted February 20, 2014 Report Share Posted February 20, 2014 I'd much prefer to do anything else in the entire world than continue this discussion with you know who. So let's forget about it. See you in another thread Matt! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted February 20, 2014 Report Share Posted February 20, 2014 It must be so sad to be you. I'm not saying that as a snark, but genuinely. I can't imagine being unable to suspend disbelief when watching movies. That you can't imagine other people seeing and enjoying things differently than yourself isn't something sad about me, but sad about you. Unless you are a cyborg or something, I call BS on feeling emotion while not suspending disbelief. Again, I mentioned crying while listening to Two of Us. Suspending disbelief? Or just remember a dead person who really has nothing to do with the song at all? Not everyone thinks like you, Jerry. You kind of need to grow up to the fact that there are alternative ways of seeing things to your own. If you don't, you're going to end up all Resident Evil and get all 'Men are programmed to be with multiple women. Women are programmed to be with the top male they can find.' on us. [side note: for those of you who forgot, read the responses across the pages that followed to get all the entertainment value of that discussion ]. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted February 20, 2014 Report Share Posted February 20, 2014 Well John talks about all the drugs he did in his early 20s when he was getting into wrestling. I don't know how to explain it for me. I watched lots of stuff like this before taking loads of drugs in my late teens and early 20s. I'm not one who thinks drugs opened up another way of seeing things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted February 20, 2014 Report Share Posted February 20, 2014 Oh man, I want to see Parv figuring out what people are thinking during stretches of matches. Do me during Andre vs Warrior SNME or a 2002 RVD match. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted February 20, 2014 Report Share Posted February 20, 2014 Jerry, I think where the confusion lies is that you assume emotional connection can only come from suspension of disbelief. John provided examples of times he has felt something when watching wrestling or listening to Beatles music, while still seeing it for what it is. To not suspend disbelief does not mean there's no connection with the material, or that it's only an intellectual activity. A famous ad slogan in the United States is that "There's no wrong way to eat a Reeses." I'm pretty sure the same spirit applies to pro wrestling. And I don't think it's fair to dismiss someone else's experience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted February 20, 2014 Report Share Posted February 20, 2014 I'd much prefer to do anything else in the entire world than continue this discussion with you know who. That's kind of what I expected. Daffy Jerry: "You can't enjoy a match without suspending disbelief, having an emotional connection with the wrestlers, and working up a good bit of empathy for them." bugs jdw: "Okay, Doc... here's a match that's cool, with a specific section that I dig as much as carrots. Tell me what I think about it when I watch it." Daffy Jerry: "Shot the Duck! Shot the Duck!!!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted February 20, 2014 Report Share Posted February 20, 2014 Is there a Malenko vs Rotunda match from 96 through 98? I want to see someone do a Johnny Sorrow take on that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted February 20, 2014 Report Share Posted February 20, 2014 Jerry, I think where the confusion lies is that you assume emotional connection can only come from suspension of disbelief. John provided examples of times he has felt something when watching wrestling or listening to Beatles music, while still seeing it for what it is. To not suspend disbelief does not mean there's no connection with the material, or that it's only an intellectual activity. A famous ad slogan in the United States is that "There's no wrong way to eat a Reeses." I'm pretty sure the same spirit applies to pro wrestling. And I don't think it's fair to dismiss someone else's experience. I don't care to exchange with jdw for reasons everyone knows by now, but I do think there is a difference between narrative forms and, for example, emotionally connecting to music. I think they are really two different things. I am not convinced that you can have an emotional connection to narrative forms, that is to storytelling, without some suspension of disbelief. I really don't -- and I think it comes down to what people think "suspension of disbelief" is. It's NOT believing that the thing is real. It's simply investing in the storyline enough to become engaged on an emotional level with its world and its characters. Hence, you can "suspend disbelief" watching fantasy or sci-fi. I think there's a lot of confusion over this. "Believability" is not about verisimilitude -- that is, it's not about whether the thing pertains to reality as we know it -- it's rather about something being believable within its own self-contained universe, and believable enough that you can feel something about it. I can't really see how you can dispense with that and still have a human reaction to the thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted February 20, 2014 Report Share Posted February 20, 2014 Jerry, I think where the confusion lies is that you assume emotional connection can only come from suspension of disbelief. John provided examples of times he has felt something when watching wrestling or listening to Beatles music, while still seeing it for what it is. To not suspend disbelief does not mean there's no connection with the material, or that it's only an intellectual activity. A famous ad slogan in the United States is that "There's no wrong way to eat a Reeses." I'm pretty sure the same spirit applies to pro wrestling. And I don't think it's fair to dismiss someone else's experience. That. I recall being in Mexicalli watching a AAA show, and the Power Rangers (or whatever the hell they were called) whipped out a multiple person Space Flying Tiger Drop. We (as in Hoback, Meltzer and myself) kind of went Holy Shit!!! over it. Why? Because it was a pretty fucking cool sequence at the time, when the SFTD (and Sasuke's equiv of it) were kind of legendary shit among hardcores, and not really something you expected to be whipped out. It's was pretty cool to be sitting in this arena across the boarder watching a show when the wrestlers were told to "take it easy" in advance of a big show in a few days, and that gets pulled out. It really didn't have anything to do with how the ebb and flow of the match was going, the storyline, the selling, the drama they were building, the way they were working the crowd. If I were to ask Hoback, Yohe and Meltzer about that match, they wouldn't remember a thing about it other than the SFTD. Hoback would remember who the heels were in the match, because he remembers all that stuff. Dave probably wouldn't remember that without looking it up... I certainly don't, and Yohe wouldn't. But the SFTD... 20 years later that probably sticks in three of our heads. Sometimes it's just Cool Shit that you enjoy, for reasons that relate far more to why you find Shit Cool than suspending disbelief. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted February 20, 2014 Report Share Posted February 20, 2014 I'll give you an example of something that engages me without requiring me to suspend my disbelief. Jushin Liger liked to do surfboards in his matches. In February of 1994, he challenged IWGP champ Shinya Hashimoto in the main event of a show at Budokan Hall. Juniors vs heavies matches were a rarity, and this was a special main event with the new champion (Hashimoto beat Tenryu a week prior) facing the established king of the juniors division. Liger went for the surfboard and managed to get Hashimoto up, but it was brief and wasn't really fully applied. He struggled to keep him there. My reaction wasn't really that I was upset Liger couldn't apply the hold because I wanted him to beat Hashimoto. It was more, "Wow, that's a really clever way to reinforce the size difference between these two and further emphasize the unique nature of this match". I popped for it because it was a fresh take on a signature spot that fit the match really well. So there wasn't really suspension of disbelief in that case. I was just popping for good work because I like good work. Does that make sense? I'm not arguing that I never suspend disbelief. I'm just saying I don't do it every single time I watch wrestling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted February 20, 2014 Report Share Posted February 20, 2014 Jerry, I think where the confusion lies is that you assume emotional connection can only come from suspension of disbelief. The confusion lies in people not understanding what suspension of disbelief means. Suspension of disbelief is an involuntary response that allows you to enjoy a cartoon where a duck is talking to a rabbit. It doesn't mean that you believe the duck is really talking to the rabbit or that you have to believe the duck is talking to the rabbit to enjoy it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted February 20, 2014 Report Share Posted February 20, 2014 Then what does it mean? That you can only enjoy something that isn't real if you subconsciously set aside the fact that it isn't real? Because I reject that notion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted February 20, 2014 Report Share Posted February 20, 2014 Then what does it mean? That you can only enjoy something that isn't real if you subconsciously set aside the fact that it isn't real? Because I reject that notion. I'm not saying that the only way you can enjoy something is through suspension of disbelief, I'm just saying that anyone who claims that they never do it is either lying or a robot, because it is so fundamental to the way we process narrative. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted February 20, 2014 Report Share Posted February 20, 2014 Ok, fair enough. I definitely do it sometimes. I don't do it all the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted February 20, 2014 Report Share Posted February 20, 2014 It's not the main way I process and enjoy wrestling which i think is a more pertinent issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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