goodhelmet Posted June 26, 2014 Report Share Posted June 26, 2014 I think in the end, the best big man comes down to these two. Lets decide this PWO poll style!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soup23 Posted June 26, 2014 Report Share Posted June 26, 2014 Went with Vader fairly easy here. Andre has had some hidden gems come out in the past few years and his later work has been re-evaluated for being smarter than on original watch as a kid, but watching some of the stuff along with Titans of Wrestling crew shows that he still has a good bit of stinkers on his resume. Vader in turn has also had some alarmingly great matches come out like the Leon White match in AWA vs. Hansen and even his later stuff in WWF vs. Owen Hart at One Night Only. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DR Ackermann Posted June 26, 2014 Report Share Posted June 26, 2014 Andre's the 8th Wonder not the 7th Wonder!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted June 26, 2014 Author Report Share Posted June 26, 2014 Fuck, you are right. Let me edit it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DR Ackermann Posted June 26, 2014 Report Share Posted June 26, 2014 Whew. Now that we've got that settled I can't vote either way. Haven't seen enough Andre. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted June 26, 2014 Report Share Posted June 26, 2014 Feel like this is unfair to Andre and this is akin to throwing him under a bus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted June 26, 2014 Report Share Posted June 26, 2014 I kind of agree with that. I'd rather see someone try to take on Andre and walk through his career, challenges inherent with doing so and all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpchicago23 Posted June 26, 2014 Report Share Posted June 26, 2014 I'd have to go with Vader here. His burtality is so fun to watch, both giving and taking. His match with Shamrock at Cold Day in Hell is a great hidden gem to add to his case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted June 26, 2014 Author Report Share Posted June 26, 2014 Wait a minute... it was ok to namedrop Andre in the best big man ever thread but when you put him head to head with Vader, it's unfair? It's a poll. Head to head. There is absolutely nothing "unfair" about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted June 26, 2014 Report Share Posted June 26, 2014 It is unfair, Will, because we have practically Vader's entire career on tape, and mostly everyone has seen his greatest hits. We only have a fraction of Andre's career on tape and most people have only seen his farewell tour. There is quite a lot of 70s Andre out there, but it's piecemeal and no systematic comp has been made. Most people, even if they have sought out 70s stuff, have only seen Andre here and there. We get glimpses rather than the overall picture we get with Vader. We need Andre in Florida, Andre in AWA, Andre in the Montreal, Andre in Japan, Andre in WWWF, Andre in Calgary, Andre in Germany, Andre in Mexico, Andre in Texas, Andre in Portland, Andre in Georgia, Andre in LA, Andre in Mid-South, Andre in Toronto, Andre in Crockett. Even thought there's only a fraction of all of that on tape, basically NO ONE has seen it all or even a quarter. That's why it isn't fair. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillThompson Posted June 26, 2014 Report Share Posted June 26, 2014 I don't think it's unfair. Andre isn't George Hackenschmidt with absolutely no footage available whatsoever. He has plenty of stuff on tape, even from his earlier days when he was in his prime. That being said I go with Vader, and it's not close in my mind. I like Andre, I think he could be great, and there are matches that show how skilled he was in the ring from a workrate and an execution standpoint. The thing is though that I would take every era of Vader over every era of Andre. Prime Andre isn't as great as prime Vader, and past his prime Andre is light years behind past his prime Vader. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goc Posted June 26, 2014 Report Share Posted June 26, 2014 But there's also a difference in "past his prime" Vader and fucking washed up falling down trying to get up the ring steps Vader. Just like there is a difference between "past his prime" Andre and washed up can't even do anything but stand on the apron and hold onto the ropes during the Colossal Connection team. There IS a difference between "past their prime" and washed up as I've learned lately watching Ivan Koloff in 1983 Georgia. I voted Andre. I've seen enough young Andre to make me think that if the amount of footage was equal that Andre would win this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted June 26, 2014 Report Share Posted June 26, 2014 goc, on a side note, I'll be watching some 81 Mid-Atlantic later on and the thing that's got me most excited for it is seeing that Ivan is on the listings. On Andre, I think we could draw the analogy with Vader's WWF run. Would it be fair to consider Vader's WWF run only and then just snippets here and there from the rest of his career? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rainmakerrtv Posted June 26, 2014 Report Share Posted June 26, 2014 Andre is a classic and has some great matches, but I went with Vader just because he had a few more dimensions to him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted June 26, 2014 Author Report Share Posted June 26, 2014 If Andre's career is incomplete to the point that we can't judge him against other wrestlers then he shouldn't have been name dropped in the Best Big Man thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted June 26, 2014 Report Share Posted June 26, 2014 Andre is a classic and has some great matches, but I went with Vader just because he had a few more dimensions to him. What were they? Andre worked face and heel, he could be sympathetic despite being massive, or he could be pissed off and work more brutally. He could work as a more subtle heel or the out and out villain. Plus he could do monster. I just want to tease out why you think Vader has more dimensions than that. He always plays monster doesn't he? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted June 26, 2014 Report Share Posted June 26, 2014 If Andre's career is incomplete to the point that we can't judge him against other wrestlers then he shouldn't have been name dropped in the Best Big Man thread. He was named as a draw and someone with an exceptional career, in HoF terms rather than as a worker. I made the same argument about footage in that thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Childs Posted June 26, 2014 Report Share Posted June 26, 2014 This is the same issue we often face when comparing wrestlers across eras. Take what you know and make a choice. Or don't. But who gives a shit about fair? It's an opinion. I'm voting for Vader in a very close shave, because as Loss argued in the other thread, his style was just so durable in creating excellent matches across promotions. That said, I probably like Andre's best couple of performances better than Vader's best couple. Again, anyone who hasn't seen his 4/1/82 match with Khan, go watch it now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted June 26, 2014 Author Report Share Posted June 26, 2014 When we talk about who is better, I never think about it in terms of drawing money. We aren't arguing numbers, we are arguing the aesthetics and personal preferences. Who was the bigger draw... Andre or Vader? Doesn't exactly lead to much discussion since the entire question can be answered with one word. Who is better is almost always a question of in-ring output. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted June 26, 2014 Report Share Posted June 26, 2014 The original thread is called "Best 'Big Man' In History?", and Andre based on every metric is in that discussion. You can't have a particularly informed discussion on work for the reasons I've outlined and so really where can a thread like this lead? If it's Vader vs. the Andre we've all seen from 1987 you might as well make a Ricky Steamboat vs. JYD thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Childs Posted June 26, 2014 Report Share Posted June 26, 2014 Of course you can have an informed discussion of their work. I have a good grip on peak Andre. Would my appreciation of him be more complete if there were more footage? Sure. But I don't know why you're portraying Andre the worker as completely obscure. We're constantly comparing wrestlers without complete accountings of their careers. Why treat this as some special case? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted June 26, 2014 Report Share Posted June 26, 2014 Because we know he was capable of great matches as we have seen in the New Japan stuff, and there are lots of key matches of his vs. people like Super Destroyer, Masked Superstar and others from the 70s that have the potential to be as great or better. He had matches with Riki Choshu and Inoki and Hansen in New Japan in the 70s. He had matches against Bock in AWA. He had matches with Valentine, Patera and Flair in Mid-Atlantic and elsewhere. He had matches with Ernie Ladd in Mid-South and Florida. Point is, that there is so much of his body of work that either isn't available or hasn't been explored that there's a much more interesting discussion to have over "what good Andre is still out there?" than "was he better than Vader?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Childs Posted June 26, 2014 Report Share Posted June 26, 2014 No one's disputing any of that. And if you feel the record isn't complete enough for you to form an opinion on Andre, that's fine. But it's silly to suggest a good Andre vs. Vader discussion is impossible for everyone on the board. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted June 26, 2014 Author Report Share Posted June 26, 2014 I re-read the introduction post from Jayme and it was clear he was talking about in ring work. Andre is the biggest drawing Big Man in history, He wins. However, in the ring, different story. He has a harder path to climb and it isn't because there is a lack of footage. It is because for those of us who have seen peak Andre, we saw bad matches as often as we saw good matches. Also, there is a comp of Andre out there... I think 9 or 10 discs. My Vader comp was 18 discs. Could have been longer. Could have been tighter. That's still plenty of hours from both guys to give a fair evaluation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted June 26, 2014 Report Share Posted June 26, 2014 Has anyone watched the 10-disc Andre comp though? There's one: http://www.ioffer.com/i/andre-the-giant-10-dvd-set-pro-wrestling-502131326 Here's another: http://www.wrestletapes.net/bestofandrethegiant.html What are you counting as "peak Andre"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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