Chief Jay Stongbow

[JerryvonKramer]

Unoriginal: Strongbow ripped off both his name and gimmick from Jules Strongbow, who was a genuine Cherokee and ran the LA promotion in the 50s and 60s and was a big star in the 1930s and 40s. As this clip shows, Jules Strongbow was a better worker than Joe Scarpa in every single way imaginable. Chief Jay Stronbow was a two-bob rip-off merchant of the lowest order.

 

Outdated: As the above clip also demonstrates, Strongbow was using a 1930s gimmick in the 1970s. That's a bit like someone working an evil Nazi gimmick in the 2010s.

 

Offensive: Joe Scarpa, as everyone knows, was not a Native American but an Italian. He disrespected the Cherokee people every time he did his shitty epileptic-fit war dance. I saw him recently work a match during which he started walking sideways like a crab. This was Scarpa literally mocking Cherokee people by depicting them as being almost sub-human.

 

Disliked: Chief Jay Strongbow was hated by his peers in the industry. Not one person has anything good to say about him. Billy Whitewolf famously FLED THE TERRITORY despite him and Strongbow being tag-team champions, because he hated Strongbow so much and couldn't stand travelling with him any more. Think about that: Strongbow was such a douche that someone would actually give up a run in New York with the tag belts rather than hang out with him.

 

Unimaginative: Strongbow pretty much only had one match that he worked over and over again. He had four standard spots:

 

- Criss-cross and then going under the legs

- Shitty wardance no sell

- Chop

- Standing up straight and sticking his moobs out

 

Never any variation, never anything new, never anything different. He even worked this match inside a shark cage.

 

Unambitious: He was just content to play gatekeeper for Bruno or Backlund. I think he only had 2 feuds in 6 years in WWF between 75 and 81 (with Patera "for running Billy Whitewolf out of town" and with Valentine for the leg-breaking angle).

 

Lazy: Strongbow didn't give much to his opponents but as I've outlined never did much in the way of offense either. His job for arch-conman Vince Sr was to fill up time on lazily-booked cards while people went to get drinks or take a shit while they were waiting for Bruno to come on OR to wrestle the boring-ass curfew draw tag match while people shuttled off home.

[SteveJRogers]

LOL! No, those are pretty vaild, but as I've been saying are pretty meaningless to someone looking back fondly at something they enjoyed in their past, and don't care all that much about how the sausages are made, and look at wrestling in the "its all popcorn entertainment."

[Matt D]

LOL! No, those are pretty vaild, but as I've been saying are pretty meaningless to someone looking back fondly at something they enjoyed in their past, and don't care all that much about how the sausages are made, and look at wrestling in the "its all popcorn entertainment."

 

Alright, I guess there's no point to any of this anymore. Let's all just go home.

 

[SteveJRogers]

Parv's question is why so many notable former fans, or fans of that era at least list Strongbow among their favorite wrestlers.

 

I'm answering THAT point.

[Loss]

No way Strongbow could get over somewhere where Wahoo had already worked and gotten over. I think the reason he is remembered fondly is because most people who were really into him hadn't seen an Indian gimmick before. And there's nothing wrong with that - being different is more key in getting over in wrestling than being good.

 

Just wanted to post this again. I really think it's as simple as the bolded part.

[Matt D]

If this was Johnny and not Parv doing this, we could be talking about F-Troop instead.

[JerryvonKramer]

What it was, was kids -- kids who don't know any better, kids who lack critical judgement and taste, kids who are basically little idiots -- cheering for a man in a colourful outfit, marking for the dancing and then maybe doing the wardance around their living room. Same reason that Brutus Beefcake was over. Anyone who was an actual grown up thought Beefcake was lame, and I'm sure the same is true of adults seeing Strongbow. From what I've read from the old guys over on Kayfabe Memories, the only people who had good stuff to say about him were kids at the time.

 

But are we kids? No, we're hardcore fans who analyse stuff and make assessments. Since when does a guy like Strongbow get a pass? Beefcake sucked hard, and Strongbow sucked even harder.

 

I particularly object to Johnny's argument that "he was over, therefore he was [charismatic / a good worker / doing something right]". It's to confuse cause and outcome / correlation. Logical fallacy 101.

 

My take then on WHY Strongbow got a good reaction was that it was kids and their parents trying to appease their kids. "Hey Timmy, look it's Chief Jay Strongbow, yayyyy". Little Timmy pops cos last week he was dancing around his own room doing the wardance. It's a pop but it's the hollowest variety of pop.

 

Bottomline: sometimes kids are idiots, and sometimes shitty stuff gets over and sells. Not a single part of it was down to Strongbow being good at any aspect of his performance.

[Ricky Jackson]

The MSG fans who were going nuts for Strongbow on the two 1975 cards we've looked at were made up almost exclusively of adults. Look at the crowds. The main reason for this is that children under 14 were technically banned from going to wrestling shows at MSG stemming from the 1957 riot. The ban wasn't always strictly enforced, but it seems like if you looked too young they wouldn't let you in. Plus, MSG shows were held in Manhattan on Monday nights starting at 8pm, not exactly a prime time and place for children. Appears the ban was lifted around the time Backlund won the strap.

 

Another thing is that we have next to nothing of 1970-74 WWWF Strongbow to assess, which would likely help explain his appeal. 75 Strongbow is clearly in decline, and 79 Strongbow is close to being ancient. It would be cool to see how Strongbow originally got over in 1970. Clearly he was someone coasting on past glory even by 1975.

[JerryvonKramer]

Kelly, watch that match with Mr. Fuji I reviewed from 1972.

[Matt D]

Have you ever seen the Pedro vs Fuji match from the mid 70s, Parv?

[JerryvonKramer]

No, I haven't. Fuji seems to be genuinely awful from what I've seen of his from that era.

 

From what I understand though, Pedro's whole deal was getting his ass kicked from pillar to post before pulling out a flash pin, or something like that. Some old-time WWWF fans complain that Pedro was booked far too weak. I might watch it, therefore, to see if that's true and to see what Fuji does with all that offense time.

[Matt D]

Watch it when you get a chance. It's not hard to find and what's online is just an extended clip so it's only a few minutes. It's interesting though and would show you a bit of what you were looking for in that regard.

[Al]

Regarding the indian gimmick, the WWWF had Chief Big Heart and Chief White Owl in 1965-66. Those guys were more blatant indian stereotypes than Wahoo McDaniel. Big Heart last wrestled at MSG in March of '66, while Strongbow debuted in July of 1970. So there was really just four years in between babyface indian gimmicks.

[Ricky Jackson]

Kelly, watch that match with Mr. Fuji I reviewed from 1972.

 

I did (it's actually 6/30/73) and I saw a ridiculously heated match where Strongbow was basically as over as any wrestler past or present.

[JerryvonKramer]

Yeah, my mistake 73 it was. See my review on the previous page. You'll see that I do give credit where it is due. Incidentally, fact fans, we identified the name of the MSG ring announcer on the last Titans show: Bob E. Lee.

[Loss]

Regarding the indian gimmick, the WWWF had Chief Big Heart and Chief White Owl in 1965-66. Those guys were more blatant indian stereotypes than Wahoo McDaniel. Big Heart last wrestled at MSG in March of '66, while Strongbow debuted in July of 1970. So there was really just four years in between babyface indian gimmicks.

 

How much do you think matches airing on MSG Network played a part in getting wrestlers over in the NY market? Does anyone know what kind of ratings those shows drew?

[W2BTD]

Strongbow would have to be in the conversation as possibly the worst "major league" wrestler of all time. I'm not going to repeat Parv's points, but they're all spot on.

 

I think he's memorable and comes up a lot because he had a memorable name and was a star when the people who bring him up were kids. Non fans don't bring up Tony Garea, they talk about Chief Jay Strongbow & Killer Kowalski because they had cool names.

[KrisZ]

MSG shows always drew good ratings for HBO & MSG Network when they aired.

 

Strongbow was pretty shitty in that gimmick but supposedly when he worked under his real name Joe Scarpa when he was younger he was pretty good

[Johnny Sorrow]

This was Scarpa literally mocking Cherokee people by depicting them as being almost sub-human.

home.

Lol, Holy shit, you stink. hahaha.

[Kronos]

Parv, you're taking this Strongbow bloke very personally, and it's liable to affect your blood pressure.

 

But keep it up, please. It makes for terrifically entertaining reading!

[garretta]

The ring announcer mentioned earlier in the thread was actually named Jack E. Lee. He not only was a ring announcer at MSG, hut he also called harness races at Roosevelt Raceway out on Long Island at the same time.