Chief Jay Stongbow

[JerryvonKramer]

Listen to any guy who grew up in the 1970s watching WWWF TV and one of the first names they'll come out with is Chief Jay Strongbow, and usually they love him. Vince Russo mentioned him recently on Austin's show. Members of the Wu-Tang Clan like him. Jimmy Fallon. Seemingly anyone who grew up in that area has fond memories of Strongbow and loved him.

My question is: WHY? I don't understand why the fuck anyone cheered for this complete douche.

This guy is one of the shittiest wrestlers ever and as far as I can see has no redeeming features. I've seen him mid- and early-70s too and it's not like he looks or works any better. Let me breakdown the areas of shit:

His look - Strongbow was not in shape and had saggy old skin, even mid-70s he looked like that. Just a horrible-looking individual that doesn't scream "top wrestler" on any level.

His complete lack of charisma - horrible, boring promo in which he shows no emotion, no excitement, not much of anything at all, and on top of it, he ususally says the wrong thing too. He's excrutiatingly bad on the mic. But even beyond that, his face is non-expressive.

 

His complete lack of wrestling ability - Strongbow couldn't work. Everything he does is shitty. He's poor at selling, he's poor on offense, he throws weak chops, he has an extremely limited range of both action and moves. Woeful in every sense.

 

His awful war dance - You could say that I'm being offensive, but I think it's genuine native Americans who'd take the strongest offense at Strongbow's pisspoor excuse at firing up. Every time he does this spastic epilectic fit of a comback I'm left thinking WHAT THE FUCK? He's just the worst thing ever, THE WORST. Fans are there gobbling it up every time.

 

This is why I'll never concede to Johnny's argument of "did he get over, could he control the crowd in the palm of his hand? Then he was a good worker". No. Not on any level was Strongbow a good worker. None. I'm not even convinced he was controlling the crowd, they just cheered him regardless cos they were fucking idiots.

 

I've never had a disconnect on someone as bad as with Strongbow. Usually, even if I think someone is lame, I can understand what the fans were cheering. I HATED Warrior as a kid, but I get why he popped crowds. Strongbow though? What the fuck?

 

 

 

 

[Al]

I never saw much in Strongbow either. But in his defense, he was born in 1928. That means he was 44 years old before any of his WWWF run surfaced on tape, and in his mid 50s when he held the tag titles for the last time. Given that he had a 20 year career before he even adopted the gimmick, he must have been a decent worker at some point.

[funkdoc]

chief jay strongbow is perhaps the strongest argument that the death of kayfabe was a good thing

[Loss]

No way Strongbow could get over somewhere where Wahoo had already worked and gotten over. I think the reason he is remembered fondly is because most people who were really into him hadn't seen an Indian gimmick before. And there's nothing wrong with that - being different is more key in getting over in wrestling than being good.

[funkdoc]

yeah, my father (from upstate NY) has a bit of nostalgia toward strongbow. even as a kid he could tell the guy was italian, and he didn't care!

 

i'm with loss, he just stood out as such a cartoon character in that time and maybe that was seen as fresh.

 

also, wasn't he an investor in the WWWF or somesuch? would explain why he was always booked so strong and put in such great positions to get over there

 

EDIT: an interesting thread would be "completely useless in-ring workers who drew money". strongbow, tiger jeet singh, big daddy...

[Kevin Ridge]

I love Jerry to really tackle more Strongbow matches and his career in general. Maybe make a case for booking him to win both WWF and NWA World Titles in 1978.

[JerryvonKramer]

I've searched hight and low for pre-70s Strongbow, but it simply doesn't exist. Certainly the grainest match of his I could find was this one:

 

The Sheik vs. Chief Jay Strongbow (??/??/7?)

 

This was obviously from Detroit but when is anyone's guess. Results for Detroit seem to be very incomplete, despite the fact that there's relatively speaking quite a lot of 1960s footage out there. That footage looks of interest in general to me, The Funks show up a few times, The Kangeroos can be seen; I wanted to take Titans to Detroit but Pete vetoed it. That 1960s stuff still looks of general interest I think.

 

Anyway, Strongbow with his shitty war dance to start. This is incredible grainy, no sound, and bit "jumpy". And even through all that, I can tell that Strongbow's dancing is woeful.

 

A few lame-looking chops on Sheik's head. Turnbuckle shot. Sheik knows the ref out. And goes to work with the foreign object. Strongbow manages to get the object, Sheik juices, Strongbow bites the cut. This is all extremely clipped. Eventually Strongbow grabs a chair and lays in a feather-light shot with it. Follows it up with more chair shots. Sheik comes back but Strongbow gives him the dancing knees. But Sheik wins anyway.

 

Could only really get the gist of what was going on, but it looked shoddy nonetheless.

 

 

The Sheik vs. Chief Jay Strongbow (??/??/77[?])

 

The US belt has been held up and this is going to be a no DQ match with two refs for it. Shithead Strongbow is very over and wearing the feathers. He prancing around the ring looking like a complete idiot as he is introduced. I'm assuming this is mid-70s by the look of the clothes, Sheik's hair and Strongbow's gut. Eddie Creatchman is also Sheik's manager, so Grand Wizard is already in WWF, which puts this after 1972. I'd guess at around 1977, that's when he had the shark cage match.

 

Strongbow's dancing is flat-out ridiculous. He's fucking awful. He looks like the Pillsbury Doughboy wearing a wig. He's jogging around with his moobs going all over the place. Fucking start wrestling already you dick. I hate the fans cheering this.

 

Sheik has already cheapshotted him with the foreign object. I don't know why he's trying to conceal it, they said it's a no DQ match. Strongbow grabs the foreign object but instead of laying any shots with it, instead decides to celebrate the gaining of the object by hopping up and down like a bunny rabbit. You're a grown man, Strongbow, stop doing this shit already. Also, terrible psychology, Ventura would have been all over him for failing to capitalise.

 

He lays in a shot. Then dances some more. Then lays in a show, and dances some more. Worst fucking wrestler ever. This is atrocious. He's giving Sheik an awfully long-time to recuperate between these shots.

 

Now Strongbow goes and grabs the ring bell, but taps Sheik with it so lightly that he couldn't possibly have felt it. Now some chops before some more fucking dancing. Seriously, he looks like a spastic penguin. He needs to be stopped. He needs to be shot.

 

Sheik has colour. Strongbow with the worst fistdrop of all time now. Turnbuckle shot. Strongbow moobs up now some more. As if he hasn't done enough already. Forearm and a knee. Face into the mat. Weak chop. Jab to the throat. Creatchman hits the ring and Strongbow chokes him out, but Sheik gets the object and lays Strongbow out.

 

Woeful match. DUD.

[JerryvonKramer]

Mr. Fuji vs. Chief Jay Strongbow (6/30/73)

 

Depending on the date of the first Sheik match, this is likely the earliest Strongbow match I could find. Vince calls Strongbow "one of the most popular wrestlers to ever put on a pair of tights". Yes, but WHY? Vince calls him a "real credit to his race". This is before The Fink was the ring announcer at MSG, and I don't know who the ring announcer is.

 

Even in 1973, Strongbow's body doesn't look good. Fuji throws the salt over his back and a cleaner woman, apparently a fan who would often do this, comes over to clean the ring of the salt. She is not happy with Fuji. The cleaner woman doing much better character work there than Strongbow would manage in his entire career. During Fuji's ritual, Strongbow stands looking impatient with his arms folded. What a total hypocrite. And now he starts he's stupid dancing. WOW!!! Headscissors.

 

Flying headscissors by Chief Jay Strongbow.

 

Holy shit! And again! Moob shake. Arm drag. Nice one too. And again. Maybe Strongbow was the Ricky Steamboat of his day after all. This is the best I've ever seen him so far.

 

Some schtick now, as Strongbow goes to the ropes but then grabs it and Fuji points to his head knowingly. The Devious One knows. Crab-like motion now as both men are super tentative. Strongbow goes to all four ropes cutting in diagonally each time to avoid an attack by Fuji, Vince says he's "as quick as lightning".

 

More tentative stalling now. Fuji thinks about using the salt. Fuji with some chops now. He doesn't look like a particularly great worker either. He misses a knee drop from the top rope. Strongbow with the bodyslam. Backdrop. Shitty dancing. Eye rake! And again. Strongbow using the heel tactics, and now he blinds him with his own salt.

 

We're ten minutes in now and after a promising start, this match has started to falter badly. Just so much schtick and stalling. Fuji, because he's blinded with the salt starts doing some very erratic things, such as going for blind flying forearms. Now why would he do that? Almost midget-match levels of comedy.

 

Fuji gets back on top with the double nipple clamp. I have to say, it's pretty got psychology to target Strongbow's moobs. This is a very very poor heat segment, but it's been very effective in generating heat, so shows what I know. I'm going to say it again: the fans are idiots. Strongbow has a hope spot now where he runs the ropes and goes through Fuji's legs, but Fuji gets the nipple clamps back on. This is bad, but the fans are loving every moment.

 

The ref is actually checking Strongbow's arm to see if he's been knocked out from the pain of the nipple clamps. He starts his spaz out, but again just a hope spot and Fuji goes back to the clamps. I look at the clock and to my horror it's only 13 minutes in. Only three minutes have passed in what seems like 10.

 

Chop by Strongbow, but Fuji goes back to the clamps. Strongbow with several more chops, but Fuji is relentless and holds on some more. It's almost like he's determied. *This.Match.Must.Suck*.

 

Eventually, finally, he breaks the hold, Strongbow hits the ropes and Fuji hits a chop for 2. And again, cover gets two but Strongbow's leg is in the ropes.

 

More weak chops and things now from Fuji. Awkwardly gets onto the top rope. Now Strongbow starts his comeback. Fans are going crazy. Tomohawk chop gets the three.

 

*1/2

 

This is the only match of Strongbow's I've seen that has suggested that once, in the distant past, in a galaxy far far away, he was something resembling a good worker. His head scissors was good, his arm drags pretty crisp, and he showed some genuine agility at the start. Fuji was very poor here though and the nipple clamp segment of the match went on forever. I guess it was getting over though, so who can blame them if that's all it took?

 

Still, pretty bad match.

[JerryvonKramer]

Don Leo Jonathan and Otto Van Heller vs. Andre the Giant and Chief Jay Strongbow (4/29/74)

 

Strongbow is billed and announced as "Indian Jay Strongbow". Von Heller has the German Cross on his cape, as in the Iron Cross that Hitler used to give out. Von Heller keeping those Nazi gimmicks going into 74. Don Leo is big but not as big as Andre and he jaws at him.

 

Since we last saw him in 1973, Strongbow looks like he's aged about 15 years. His moobs are that bit saggier, his face a bit more haggered, his hair a bit more thin and greasy and straggly. And he looked like shit in 1973.

 

Don Leo is pissed off. He wants a French ref to come because Andre doesn't speak English. He thinks that Andre doesn't even understand the rules. Seems like an excellent heel to me. Character work is superb.

 

Nobody moves. Very tentative, but it's the prancing idiot Strongbow against Von Heller to start. Strongbow basically tags out immediately and Andre gives him a side slam. He tags out and Don Leo Jonathan comes in. He struts around the ring a bit. This is exciting. The two big men lock up. Elbow and collar tieup.

 

Strongbow and Andre keep doing double high-fives. Strongbow comes in the ring to do it again. And he's off on one now, spazzing out and generally acting like an over-sized turkey. I couldn't hate the guy more. He's actually disrupted what was looking to be a great encounter between Andre and Jonathan. Why don't you just fuck off Strongbow and let the match happen? Fans loved it though, as you can imagine.

 

Andre applies a big headlock. Don Leo reverses it into a arm lock. Andre powers out. Crowd is going nuts. Big headbutt to the top of Jonathan's back. Strongbow in. Dancing again. Twat.

 

Jonathan gets him into a bearhug. As this goes on Andre starts stomping the ring to get the crowd going. Andre is actually out-working Strongbow here from the apron. Eventually Strongbow hits a kneelift but it's just a hope sport and Jonathan goes back to the bearhug. EXCELLENT moustache on the referee.

 

Eventually Strongbow sneaks under Jonathan's legs and tags Andre who now bearhugs Jonathan. Roof comes off. This crowd is really hot for Andre. Sleeper now by Strongbow on Jonathan, sloppily applied. Von Heller comes in to break it up.

 

The bell rings. That's the first fall. Faces get it. Vince: "there's no explaination given as to why the fall is awarded to Strongbow and Andre ... probably it was because of the interference by Von Heller". That is an exceptionally harsh DQ ref.

 

Strongbow vs. Jonathan to start the second fall. Strongbow literally never stops his weird dancing shit does he. Vince calls him a "fiesty Indian". Under the legs by Strongbow again -- this is like the one spot he can do seemingly. Jonathan gives Strongbow a forearm and Von Heller chokes him with the tag rope. Heel doubleteaming now. Go on Von Heller, potato that fucker!

 

Under the legs and Andre tags in. Crowd is wild. Big slap. Big chop to Jonathan. Bearhug on von Heller. Jonathan breaks it. DQ again? No. Inconsistent ref! Another bearhug. Jonathan breaks it again. Big boot by Andre, big splash. And that's the three count.

 

**

 

Andre's interactions with Don Leo Jonathan were worked very well. Von Heller didn't do a lot and didn't look particularly good. Strongbow's performance really brought the match down. He sucked badly here.

[JerryvonKramer]

Johnny Rodz vs. Chief Jay Strongbow (some time in 1979)

 

By my calcualtions this was from Allentown, some time in 1979. Joe McHugh the ring announcer. Strongbow has his knee in the brace which means this is most Valentine leg breakage. Rodz ever unpredictable goes straight in with an attack and catches Strongbow off guard, who then bails. Strongbow comes back with his weird shuffle dance thing. He know works an armbar. During this armbar Rodz clenches his fist and the ref tells him off for it. That's very strict enforcement of the no punching rule, not even allowed to FORM a fist!

 

Rodz gets back on top and attacks the injured knee. But Strongbow comes back with tomohawk chops for the win.

 

DUD, Rodz did his best but Strongbow is worthless.

[JerryvonKramer]

Kamala vs. Chief Jay Strongbow (8/25/84)

 

I'm going to finish up my mini-review of Strongbow shite with his match with another of my favourite workers, Kamala. This is from MSG. Hayes and Monsoon on commentary. Alfred calls Gorilla "Gino" throughout. Blassie is managing Kamala and is in a snazzy gold number tonight. Alfred postulates that Friday and Kamala speak Swahili. Monsoon thinks that Blassie has zero control over Kamala. Strongbow is getting impatient. I've noticed that Strongbow is disrespectful to other cultures, yet another in a long litany of black marks against him.

 

Strongbow is just ancient at this point. He still does his four ropes diagonal crossing routine. "Look at the quickness of Strongbow as he comes off those ropes at a 100 miles a minute", says Monsoon. Who said that he doesn't get people over? Kamala is unphased by Strongbow's offense.

 

But Kamala misses a turnbuckle charge which allows Strongbow to try to apply a sleeper, but he can't get it on. Kamala with chops now. Strongbow takes a bump to the outside, badly. Chops now by Kamala. Dancing from Strongbow now. He nosells some chops. And two chops of his own and a knee lift. But it's all for naught, Kamala hits the big splash for 3. "You could have counted to fifty."

 

DUD

 

Strongbow, unlike Wahoo, had nothing at all left in the tank by this stage in his career. Completely terrible. Kamala was almost as bad.

[Ricky Jackson]

Strongbow is the anti-DiBiase for you Parv. While Ted can do no wrong, Jay can do no right.

[Johnny Sorrow]

You do realize that none of this is going to change the fact that Jon Stewart, Fallon, and a generation of people will always have fond childhood memories of him? :lol

[MikeCampbell]

Did any of his Florida work as Joe Scarpa make it on tape? The Legends Roundtable episode about Southern Wrestling shows a Gordon Solie interview with him.

[Al]

 

 

Eddie Creatchman is also Sheik's manager, so Grand Wizard is already in WWF, which puts this after 1972. I'd guess at around 1977, that's when he had the shark cage match.

Ernie Roth (the Wizard) worked multiple territories along with the WWWF at the same time. "I Like To Hurt People," which was filmed around 1977, featured an angle where Creatchman replaced the Wizard temporarily and cost the Sheik a match, leading to Sheik (with Wizard) against Ox Baker (with Creatchman).

[SteveJRogers]

You do realize that none of this is going to change the fact that Jon Stewart, Fallon, and a generation of people will always have fond childhood memories of him? :lol

 

LOL!

 

Here is the key part that Parv is forgetting, the cartoonish aspect of wrestling is probably what appeals to the "noted" people that throw Strongbow's name out there. A generation later its Jim Duggan, and eventually Ultimate Warrior, Undertaker, etc.

 

Throw in characters like The Road Warriors, Sting, hell even a strong "work rate" guy with crazy stringy hair and neat beard but gave rambling promos and called himself "Macho Man" and you see why the general audiences (many of whom lapsed in their fandom no doubt) have more of a fondness for the over the top cartoon characters than say a good technical wrestler that was just another name on the roster to them.

 

HELL PARV, what is the ONE THING that your Teddy Boy is know for the most?

 

Not the guy Patterson feuded with when Ted's title got transferred to the IC belt or Hogan's first WWF opponent.

 

Not for taking "sick" piledriver bumps in Georgia and was in the hospital for months.

 

Not for being a great heel in MidSouth.

 

Its when he became a cackling, over the top Scrooge McDuck like cartoon character as The Million Dollar Man, and even then if you asked any general/causal fan back then, they probably would recall more his promos, skits, Andre handing him the title, etc more so than his in ring prowess at the time.

 

JBL used the gimmick as well, but the point of both DiBiase and JBL was the gimmick and that they weren't perceived as "talented" as in ring wrestlers as their opponents. THAT was the point of the Million Dollar Man and the JBL gimmicks (though JBL had a title run and DiBiase didn't). All that despite both being good workers and performers in the ring.

 

Its the GIMMICK that matters to a lot of general/causal fans, especially to those recounting memories of long ago. THAT'S exactly why Strongbow is over when people are waxing nostalgic about 1970s WWWF.

[JerryvonKramer]

That would be a good argument if Strongbow wasn't such an awful promo and generally uncharismatic douche bag. Ted is one of the best workers of skits ever, Strongbow is one of the very worst, if not THE worst.

[Matt D]

There's something to that. You can watch late era Duggan or JYD and see what they do well and effectively and how they relate to the crowd and how and why the crowd relates to them. I think anyone on this website can easily explain why people were behind Warrior and it's even easier if you go back and watch the matches and pull out bits of evidence. Parv is doing this with Strongbow and the well seems empty. I imagine Parv is actively looking for something to cling on to and not just trying to further damn the guy here. He wants it to make sense.

[Johnny Sorrow]

uncharismatic

This is blatantly not true, since he's over like crazy with the crowds. He may be uncharismatic to you in 2014, but that's totally unimportant.

[JerryvonKramer]

The guy has zero charisma. Watch the Pow Wow skit from TNT or Ernie Ladd desecrating his feathers from Georgia -- both of which I know you've seen. I've seen fucking rocks with more charisma. Don't talk shit now Johnny.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlation_does_not_imply_causation

 

"Cum hoc ergo propter hoc" -- that's you talking about Strongbow that is. That's right I said "cum"! "Oooh Strongbow, cum propter, all over me".

[funkdoc]

not sure if there was a strong native american gimmick in that promotion prior to strongbow. if not, i could see all that "corny" stuff getting over since it may have felt fresh to that audience at that time. i particularly like the comment from loss (i think) on him working a territory that never had wahoo, and how that was probably a major reason he got over.

 

also, we *did* have iron eyes cody around this same time period...i wonder if people just really wanted "Good Indians"

[Ricky Jackson]

The best part is we haven't even got to Strongbow's return in 82 in a tag team with Jules where he is really, really washed up. Can't wait.

 

Wahoo did work for WWWF in 1965 when he was playing for the Jets

[SteveJRogers]

The best part is we haven't even got to Strongbow's return in 82 in a tag team with Jules where he is really, really washed up. Can't wait.

 

Wahoo did work for WWWF in 1965 when he was playing for the Jets

 

WHILE he was a Jet? Geez!

 

LOL, wonder if any WWWF marks wondered why he didn't don the head dress gimmick on the sidelines!

 

Okay, granted it would be some time before Joe Namath donned his classic fur coats on the sidelines but still =

[Ricky Jackson]

What's cool is the name on the back of his jersey was "Wahoo"

[SteveJRogers]

PROOF that Rod Smart was NO innovator!

 

Though...MAYBE he was the start of the Haters Gonna Hate reverse-trolling!