Johnny Sorrow Posted July 17, 2014 Report Share Posted July 17, 2014 I love Parv immediately going into full Dibiase defense mode when it's brought up that the Duggan/ DiBiase angle didn't do huge business. LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted July 17, 2014 Report Share Posted July 17, 2014 What sort of worker is Happy GoodGuy? It varies from territory to territory. It doesn't really matter. The type of worker never really mattered. What kind of worker was Andre (great)? He was a special attraction. The world champ is a special attraction. You are popping a gate, not creating a revolution in the territory. Lets look at some top babyfaces from different territories, late 70s or early 80s. Mid South - JYD Portland - Roddy Piper or Billy Jack Haynes Memphis - Jerry Lawler AWA - Rick Martel / Hulk Hogan Florida - Dusty World Class - Kerry Von Erich Georgia - Tommy Rich Mid Atlantic - Ricky Steamboat We picked JYD as the most extreme example on the show but I have no doubt that every single one of those guys could go to another territory, have a great match or a fun match or a bloody match with the other guys. JYD vs. Tommy Rich, Steamboat, Martel, Piper? Sure. JYD vs. Kerry? Kerry could have great matches with bad wrestlers. Lawler vs. JYD? Entertaining at least in 1980 even though it was rough in 1990. JYD vs. Dusty? Maybe a little rough... attach a gimmick. JYD and Dust could work a gimmick match. It simply isn't that hard to do. This sounds ridiculous, but it matters. If Happy Goodguy is a worker like JYD, then it's going to be difficult to keep coming up with scenarios like you've just outlined while keeping it interesting. Why? Because unless Dastardly Von Evil is a super worker in each and every territory, your main event is going to blow. And then, if you do get to the Jolly McHappy vs Happy GoodGuy, face vs. face blowoff, unless Jolly McHappy is a very very capable worker, your big marquee match for the year is going to suck. Now, lets look at the other guys who are better than JYD that were on top. Lawler vs. Piper? Sign me up Steamboat vs. Martel? I'm down. Hogan vs. Piper? Box office. Proven fact. Dusty vs. Tommy Rich? Babyface blood on blood. This might be the greatest brawl in NWA history. Steamboat vs. Piper? Another classic matchup. Steamboat vs. Rich? Another happy Will smileyface. Dusty vs. Martel? Never honestly thought about it until I typed it right now. JYD worked in Mid-South because Watts was a master at promoting around him, at protecting him, at putting him in spots where his limitations were well hidden and where guys like DiBiase or The Midnight Express could bounce around the ring for him literally working the proverbial broomstick, JYD would have worked anywhere in the country. Hell, after the national expansion and Vince took over the territories, he was the 2nd most over face in the WWF, past his prime and jobbing to guys left and right. JYD had charisma, he could sell a beating and the people loved him. I am not factoring in drug use or any of that shit. Just on pure charisma alone, JYD could have gone as far as the promoters wanted to take him because the people loved him. If, in your scenario, Happy Goodguy is a worker like JYD, then you need to count on EVERY promoter not only booking him as smart as Watts did, but also having the workers of the calibre of those Watts had at his disposal. Even if you assume the NWA President is booking the finish of the match, a lot of the time the details were left up to the night. If it's Ric Flair, he can work 60 minutes in his sleep with no plan. If it's JYD and his opponent is ... Bulldog Bob Brown, then ... oh. What if his opponent is Dusty? Oh. Suddenly the main events across the country are looking truly terrible from an in-ring point of view and you don't have a Bill Watts protecting him. If you don't protect your gate, you are an idiot. Many promoters were idiots but JYD would have been fine from 80-83. We haven't even been accounting for the fact that the champ could be involved with Heel A while Local Hero is involved with Heel B. If you look at the other babyfaces who weren't JYD (the most extreme case) all of them would have been fine in any territory anywhere in the country. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted July 17, 2014 Report Share Posted July 17, 2014 I need to listen because for whatever reason, I've read this a few times and can't figure out what is being debated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoe Posted July 17, 2014 Report Share Posted July 17, 2014 Will I liked the Flair/Patterson comparison . I thought Dibiase took a lot of his stuff from working with Pat. In this match Pat used a brass knuckles, Dibiase used the black glove. Along with lot of their mannerisms . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted July 17, 2014 Report Share Posted July 17, 2014 I need to listen because for whatever reason, I've read this a few times and can't figure out what is being debated. Brother, you and I have talked about this before. It is about the travelling heel NWA champ. My argument is that a face could have been the travelling champ and the NWA would have been fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoe Posted July 17, 2014 Report Share Posted July 17, 2014 On the talking point about Duggan/Dibiase not drawing in Watt's book he mentions houses were down because Duggan was guzzling Dibiase up in towns. So the rematches weren't drawing it seems . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoe Posted July 17, 2014 Report Share Posted July 17, 2014 Some other great feuds that climaxed in a big payoff was on Christmas Night with Hayes in the cage which paid off the Christsmas cage match in 82. Another was Von Erich 's vs. Dynamic Duo in the hair match . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimmas Posted July 21, 2014 Report Share Posted July 21, 2014 Thanks to everybody for their enjoyment of this show. Part two will be up on Wednesday and the matches are: 4. vs. Ric Flair (11/06/85) 5. vs. Randy Savage (6/25/88), MSG, WWF 6. Toshiaki Kawada & Akira Taue vs Stan Hansen & Ted DiBiase (9/3/93) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgrblue Posted July 24, 2014 Report Share Posted July 24, 2014 There is a reason that watts had to build gimmicks around JYD. Michael hayes "blinding" the dog, was the hottest thing they had in mid-south, set records and the like. For JYD, it would not have worked in other territories, because blacks were not seen as top stars. Dog was pushed by Watts, and he had success with him, because he was playing to his audience. Unlikely, Ole anderson would have booked JYD to go over, on TBS. So, JYD had the backing of the office, and his being hugely over with the crowd made for big money. JYD, however, needed go be carried, he could not do,it on his own. It's not to,say that he only popular in the mid-south, but also in wwf, but vince had no idea what to do b with him, and was pushing hogan as top, so JYD was bever getting too billing. I ha e to agree with Parv, travelling champs need to be a heel, or the tweener, to work fully. JYD would be to difficult to boo, and generally, heels,call the matches, and JYD strikes me as a more off the cuff guy, rather than a planner. He could make a transition champ, one month or what not, but not full time, he's just not,a good enough worker to,facilitate it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgrblue Posted July 24, 2014 Report Share Posted July 24, 2014 I need to listen because for whatever reason, I've read this a few times and can't figure out what is being debated. Brother, you and I have talked about this before. It is about the travelling heel NWA champ. My argument is that a face could have been the travelling champ and the NWA would have been fine. I believe that it could have worked, it would have just been more work to make things smooth out, in the end. Probably, would have made some promoters happier, and some less than, to have a face champ. Look at Tommy Rich, or Kerry Von Erich, both huge faces, both got about two weeks as champ, although, Kerry, perhaps was not ready to be champ, like david was. Kerry and flair headlined the texas stadium show that drew over 40,000 in 84. I saw someone posted a booking sheet for,dates that Kerry was to wrestle, they sent him to Florida, then took the belt off of him. Could it have been done, a face traveling champ? Yes, but it was easier to run the dastardly heel out of town with his belt, when it was over with. Even the harlem globetrotters lost, occasionally. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoe Posted July 24, 2014 Report Share Posted July 24, 2014 I think the main problem with a face NWA champ would I'd be afraid it would make the areas baby faces less important, and in the long run hamper the day to day drawing if the faces in the territory. For this to work I think the booking would have to be really creative. I'm not sure this could have been sustained. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted July 24, 2014 Report Share Posted July 24, 2014 There's a nuance being lost in the discussion. On the show, I talked specifically about why JYD couldn't be NWA champ. It was less about him being a face, and more about the type of worker he was. The point was less that the traveling champ HAD to be a heel, and more than he had to be a great worker who could work a variety of different styles against any opponent you could put in there with him. The prototype for the babyface NWA travelling champ was Jack Brisco, and he drew well. But as we said, Jack could come in as the conquering babyface, or play the subtle heel, or just go flat out face vs. face. He could go broadway if he needed to. He could wrestle, he could brawl. My contention was mainly about Will claiming that guys like JYD or Dusty could have been put in that role. Will said that it was more the promoters and that the fans would follow, but I maintain that fans in some areas wouldn't have bought a guy like JYD as champ, and he just didn't have the skills required for the role. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted July 24, 2014 Report Share Posted July 24, 2014 Another, more concrete way of putting all that ... Ricky Steamboat could have absolutely been a travelling NWA champ as a babyface, because he was a great worker. It doesn't matter if he beats your local hero and then shake hands with him because 1. Hey Steamer's a great guy and the girls want to fuck him, 2. the fans will just buy the idea that he's be best wrestler in the world and that's why he's the champ. Done. Easy. Steamer can pop the gate when he's in town, and it doesn't really damage the local babyface, and he can wrestle your top local villain. And, in the process, Steamer can put on a wrestling clinic for you and then the fans are "fuck me, he's a GREAT wrestler, what a guy". And then the champ is gone. You can't do that with JYD, because none of it rings true. And you can't do it with Dusty. I'd probably argue you couldn't do it with Lawler either, because the fans (and promoters) didn't perceive Lawler as a "great wrestler" like that; wrong style of worker. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted July 24, 2014 Report Share Posted July 24, 2014 I thought the NWA champ took on both roles as needed anyway. Jack Brisco was a babyface champ, and I presume if he was facing a local top babyface, he just played subtle heel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted July 24, 2014 Report Share Posted July 24, 2014 I stumbled across this earlier looking for a Dory Funk Jr match: http://wrestlingclassics.com/.ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=14;t=000499 Matt Farmer's list of Brisco's 10,000+ gates: 1970 JUN 29 Dory Funk Jr vs Jack Brisco- NWA Title Charlotte Coliseum, Charlotte NC 12,000 1971 MAR 05 Jack Brisco vs Blackjack Lanza w/Bobby Heenan/ Dick the Bruiser vs Baron Von Raschke- Texas Death Match Kiel Auditorium, St. Louis MO 11,766 1972 NOV 23 Dory Funk Sr, Dory Funk Jr vs Jack & Jerry Brisco Greensboro Coliseum, Greensboro NC 13,000 (Record Crowd) 1973 MAY 25 Bob Armstrong vs Bobby Shane- Shane’s Cadillac vs Armstrong’s $8,500/ Pedro Morales vs Paul Jones- WWWF Title/ Mr. Wrestling I & II vs Jack Brisco, Bill Watts Omni Coliseum, Atlanta GA 11,000 JUL 20 Harley Race vs Jack Brisco- NWA Title/ Paul Boesch vs Gary Hart Sam Houston Coliseum, Houston TX 10,223 SEP 23 Jack Brisco vs Eric the Red- NWA Title/ The Sheik vs Tony Marino MLG, Toronto ONT 10,000 NOV 22 Jack Brisco vs Dory Funk Jr- NWA Title Lou Thesz Ref Greensboro Coliseum, Greensboro NC 10,000 DEC 02 Jack Brisco vs John DaSilva- NWA Title Carlau Park, Aukland New Zealand 10,000 16 Jack Brisco vs Johnny Valentine- NWA Title/ The Sheik vs Billy Red Lyons- US Title MLG, Toronto ONT 10,500 28 Jack Brisco vs Mr. Wrestling (Tim Woods)- NWA Title Omnic Coliseum, Atlanta GA 10,300 1974 MAR 29 Jack Brisco vs Wahoo McDaniel- NWA Title Sam Houston Coliseum, Houston TX 11,000 APR 21 Jack Brisco vs Johnny Valentine- NWA Title/ The Sheik vs Dewey Robertson MLG, Toronto ONT 10,244 JUN 14 Jack Brisco vs Dory Funk Jr- NWA Title Joe Higuchi Ref Kiel Auditorium, St. Louis MO 10,669 JUL 21 Jack Brisco vs Tony Parisi- NWA Title/ The Sheik vs Eduardo Carpentier- US Title MLG, Toronto ONT 10,000 SEP 16 Jack Brisco vs Jerry Lawler- NWA Title Mid South Coliseum, Memphis TN 10,125 22 Jack Brisco vs Billy Red Lyons- NWA Title/ The Sheik vs Bulldog Brower- US Title MLG, Toronto ONT 10,000 NOV 21 Jack Brisco vs Terry Funk- NWA Title Jacksonville Coliseum, Jacksonville FL 10,000 25 Jack Brisco vs Johnny Valentine- NWA Title Charlotte Arena, Charlotte NC 11,700 28 Jack Brisco vs Wahoo McDaniel- NWA Title Greensboro Coliseum, Greensboro NC 11,268 1975 JAN 03 Jack Brisco vs Dick the Bruiser- NWA Title Kiel Auditorium, St. Louis MO 11,314 20 Jack Brisco vs Steve Kovac- NWA Title/ Jerry Lawler, Dick the Bruiser vs Danny Hodge, Ron Fuller Mid South Coliseum, Memphis TN 10,260 FEB 03 Jack Brisco vs Jerry Lawler- NWA Title Mid South Coliseum, Memphis TN 10,395 07 Jack Brisco vs Dory Funk Jr- NWA Title Joe Higuchi Ref Kiel Auditorium, St. Louis MO 10,087 APR 14 Jack Brisco vs Ron Fuller- NWA Title Mid South Coliseum, Memphis TN 11,300 28 Jack Brisco vs Ron Fuller- NWA Title Mid South Coliseum, Memphis TN 10,400 AUG 29 Jack Brisco vs Bob Backlund- NWA Title/ The Sheik vs Abdullah the Butcher- Cage Match Omni Coliseum, Atlanta GA 12,000 SEP 01 Jack Brisco vs Gene Kiniski- NWA Title PNE Coliseum, Vancouver BC 10,000 29 Jack Brisco vs Mongolian Stomper- NWA Title Mid South Coliseum, Memphis TN 10,500 NOV 27 Jack Brisco vs Wahoo McDaniel- NWA Title No Dq Match/ Paul Jones vs Terry Funk- US Title War Memorial Coliseum, Greensboro NC 12,102 1976 JUN 25 Jack Brisco vs Dory Funk Jr/ Antonio Inoki vs Muhammed Ali- Boxer vs Wrestler CCTV/ Andre the Giant vs Chuck Werpner- Boxer vs Wrestler CCTV Omni Coliseum, Atlanta GA 11,700 AUG 09 Jack Brisco vs Jerry Lawler- Southern Title Mid South Coliseum, Memphis TN 10,098 16 Jerry Lawler vs Jack Brisco- Southern Title Mid South Coliseum, Memphis TN 10,962 1977 JUN 17 Harley Race vs Jack Brisco- NWA Title/ Billy Graham vs Sgt. Slaughter- WWWF Title Kiel Auditorium, St. Louis MO 10,000 1978 NOV 23 Dory & Terry Funk vs Jack & Jerry Brisco- $15,000 Tag Tourn Finals/ Ole Anderson vs Thunderbolt Patterson Omni Coliseum, Atlanta GA 17,000 1979 JAN 01 Harley Race vs Andre the Giant- NWA TItle/ Dory Funk Jr, Terry Funk vs Jack & Jerry Brisco- NWA Tag Title/ Mr. Wrestling II vs Masked Superstar- Georgia Title Omni Coliseum, Atlanta GA 12,300 SEP 11 Jack Brisco vs Ken Patera- Texas Death Match/ Harley Race vs Kerry Von Erich- NWA Title Keil Auditorium, St. Louis MO 10,985 NOV 22 Austin Idol, Masked Superstar vs Jack & Jerry Brisco- Tour Finals for vacant Georgia Tag Title/ Mr. Wrestling vs Mr. Wrestling II/ Tommy Rich vs Bobby Heenan- Loser Leaves Town Match/ Ole Anderson, Thunderbolt Patterson vs Ernie Ladd, Ivan Koloff- No Dq MatchThe Omni, Atlanta GA 12,000 1980 JAN 25 Bruiser Brody, Dick Murdock vs Andre the Giant, Dick the Bruiser/ Kevin Von Erich vs Jack Brisco- Missouri Title/ Wrestle Royal: Dick the Bruiser & Andre the Giant Kiel Auditorium, St. Louis MO 11,053 MAR 07 Ric Flair vs Jack Brisco- Pat O’Conner Ref/ Bob Backlund vs Dick Murdock- WWF Title Keil Auditorium, St. Louis MO 10,000 1981 MAY 15 Jack Brisco vs Dory Funk Jr Orlando FL 15,651 SEP 11 Harley Race vs Kerry Von Erich/ Jack Brisco vs Ken Patera- Texas Death Match Kiel Auditorium, St. Louis MO 10,985 1982 JUN 27 Ric Flair vs Jack Brisco- NWA Title MLG, Toronto ONT 12,000 1983 AUG 06 Jack, Jerry Brisco vs Ric Flair, Ricky Steamboat- NWA Tag Titles Charlotte Coliseum, Charlotte NC 10,000 1984 JAN 27 Dusty Rhodes, Pez Whatley vs Jack & Jerry Brisco/ Tag Tourn Cleveland OH 14,000 APR 07 Ric Flair vs Jack Brisco- NWA Title Baltimore Arena, Baltimore MD 10,000 This bears out what we've been saying. Obviously, he wasn't champ for all of these matches. Point remains though that you can plug in a guy like Steamboat or -- DiBiase from 81 perhaps -- into those slots. You can't plug in a JYD or a Dusty. Not the right type of worker. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted July 24, 2014 Report Share Posted July 24, 2014 Bullshit... in 1985 and 1986 when Dusty went national, are you going to claim he didn't draw any gates? It was all about his opponent? Dusty wasn't a draw? Hell, Dusty was probably even more popular in the late 70s and early 80s. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted July 24, 2014 Report Share Posted July 24, 2014 It wasn't that he wasn't a draw, it's that the NWA World Title matches were expected to be "scientific", which wasn't Dusty's style. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted July 24, 2014 Report Share Posted July 24, 2014 Completely different situation. JCP in 1985/6 is not the same thing as all of the NWA territories in the late 70s and early 80s. It's a completely different role. I said on the show, JYD or Dusty could have been good company champs, COMPANY champs. There's a world of difference between a company champ and the NWA traveling champ. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoe Posted July 24, 2014 Report Share Posted July 24, 2014 Exactly Loss. Dusty is a draw no doubt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted July 24, 2014 Report Share Posted July 24, 2014 It wasn't that he wasn't a draw, it's that the NWA World Title matches were expected to be "scientific", which wasn't Dusty's style. It's a legitimacy issue. They wanted a guy who any fan could look at and say, "yes, that guy is the best wrestler in the world". With the best will in the world and the best possible booking, Dusty was never going to get over as that. You also can't book Dusty like Hogan (i.e. Superman) because he didn't have the look for it. I think a more interesting question would be to think about Hogan himself. THE quintessential national company champ. There the company was built around Hogan and everything was geared towards Hogan. That can work because Vince has total control over the WWF. Could Hogan work as the NWA traveling champ with 15 different promoters to appease? How do you book it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted July 24, 2014 Report Share Posted July 24, 2014 Re-reading your "nuance being lost" post, we used JYD as an extreme example. My point is that anybody could be in that role if they had enough charisma and people rallied around them. My main contention was that it didn't matter if they were face or heel, it was in how they could be booked in the different territories. I even listed a ton of great working babyfaces who could have traveled around the country. What the fuck? You guys are arguing specifically against JYD but not against my initial argument that Parv now agrees with? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted July 24, 2014 Report Share Posted July 24, 2014 Hey, Will, maybe we should be pushing part 2. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted July 24, 2014 Report Share Posted July 24, 2014 Shit, what did we talk about on Part Two? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted July 24, 2014 Report Share Posted July 24, 2014 Well, gee, I guess people will have to tune in to find out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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