Where the Big Boys Play #65 - Great American Bash 91

[JerryvonKramer]

http://placetobenation.com/where-the-big-boys-play-65-great-american-bash-1991/

 

 

In this bumper edition, Chad and Parv welcome Will to celebrate the two-year anniversary of Where the Big Boys Play taking an in-depth look at a show with the reputation of being one of the worst PPVs of all time: Great American Bash 1991 aka the We Want Flair show.

 

- [8:33] Wrestling Observer and PW Torch roundup: who wrote into PW Torch in 1991?, Dr Zahorian and Hulk Hogan, PN News: behind-the-scenes disaster zone, and all of the details surrounding Ric Flair's firing by Evil Jim Herd, the fallout and fan reaction.

 

- [58:12] Review of Great American Bash 91: more discussion of Flairs firing, PN News in a scaffold match, DDP: a dedicated follower of fashion, reassessing Morton vs. Gibson, El Gigante and some gothed-up midgets, Tony Schiavone as colour analyst, Parv puts forward an alternative way of booking the world title match, and, of course, the burning question: is this the worst PPV of all time or even in the conversation for that title?

 

- [2:59:18] End of show awards and question for the listeners: would you have fired Ric Flair in 1991?

 

AND be sure to check out Matt D's great companion piece at PTBN: placetobenation.com/the-great-amerid-of-spartacus/

 

The PWO-PTBN Podcast Network features great shows you can find right here at Place to Be Nation. By subscribing on iTunes or SoundCloud, you’ll have access to new episodes, bonus content, as well as a complete archive of: Where the Big Boys Play, Titans of Wrestling, Pro-Wrestling Super-Show, Good Will Wrestling, and Wrestling With the Past.

[Matt D]

First off, glad to be on board, especially for the start of year 3. It's like you guys ended a season and crashed right into Great American Bash 91 in your season premiere. A whole new threat.

 

Other thoughts as I go. That Studd/Flair match isn't hard to find, btw. Flair being managed by 1991 DDP is something to see.

 

Also, the in ring Danger Zone with PN News is way better than the Hervey one since News makes Heyman do it and it's a hilarious performance. That's harder to find but I think I saw it on a WCW Pro Chicago.

[shoe]

The Flair talk early was good. The booking of the champion in late 90/91 was terrible. In 90 Sting the t.v was built on building to a Black Scorpion match. Yet had to go on the road and draw against Flair, and Sid. Then he'd start facing some jobber under the hood. Which for sure wasn't going to draw on rematches.

 

In 91 it seemed Flair didn't have an opponent they built up enough for him. Just a merry go round of opponents. We saw Pillman, Steiner, Eaton, Sting, and Gigante.

 

Luger in 91 at 1st had Simmons who really had no cred yet. Windham who was shoved into the spotlight. They build a match on t.v with Sting, but the houseshows had Luger vs. Rick Steiner. It seemed they didn't 't know how to book the t.v to build houseshows and ppv at the same time.

[dgrblue]

In 91, the book made a match to push scott steiner, but he got hurt, with the arm injury. Herd just did not want Flair, and wanted him to go away. Flair would not take a pay cut. So what we are left with is the shit of GAB 91. Who thought PN News should be on a scaffold?

[soup23]

Who thought PN News should be on a scaffold?

 

Same person that thought the Ding Dongs were revolutionary.

[Matt D]

The Sting in the main event bit is interesting. It's hard to extrapolate back because obviously they weren't putting Windham in that match instead of Sting for no reason. I know it's giving them a ton of credit, but it really does feel to me that Sting vs Luger at Superbrawl was the plan all along. Luger was revealed relatively early as the force behind the packages. Now, there were ways to make that work still, but you'd have to rethink a lot of stuff. I think they wanted to create multiple programs instead of just one. They wanted to have Sting as a draw in a match and they wanted to have Luger in a draw in a match, both of them having titles, so they could promote multiple big matches at a time?

 

I'm not sure if it worked but I get the mindset of what they were trying to do at least.

 

Also, neither here nor there, but I thought Will's positivity on the podcast was great, even when he was just goofing.

[Evil Jim Herd]

Fuck you

 

Same person that thought the Ding Dongs were revolutionary.

[JerryvonKramer]

I would like more responses to the question for the listeners, because I'm really interested to know what people would have done in Jim Herd's spot. The Flair situation in 91 is one of the most interesting cases we've covered in these shows I think -- probably since we did the review of the JCP: Good Old Days documentary and went in-depth on the causes of JCP's decline back on WTBBP #47.

[Matt D]

I would have never been in that spot because I would have had Eddie Gilbert as the Black Scorpion and ended Starccade with Windham as the SECOND Black Scorpion during a ref distraction and picking up the win after Sting gutted Gilbert and then done my Sid/Windham/Doom vs Flair/Arn/Sting/Luger Horsemen war.

[bradhindsight]

Re: the listener question, I had a question. So Flair had an out clause in his contract, which is why this negotiating was happening when it did. Did WCW end up paying him the remaining amount due on his contract or was it a case where Flair opted out to renegotiate and then they just let him go?

[shoe]

The whole Flair leaving put the company in terrible position. The chess pieces on the board was really limiting compared to 6 months later. They were clearly doing a slow build to Sting/Luger. It seems WCW had so many timing issues and then not having anyone in place. We saw it in 90 when Sting got hurt. Heck WWE didn't do any better when Danielson got hurt.

[thebrainfollower]

I wouldn't have fired Flair but I'm not sure I would have kept him around either. He wasn't drawing anymore and his face run in 89 produced poor box office as well. I think Flair become an albatross in that nobody would get over as the new top guy as long as Flair was around with THAT crowd, but THAT crowd was dwindling and was no longer enough to make a company solvent.

 

Here's another question, given what Flair did here is there ANY justification to his condemnation of Bret Hart at the screwjob other than blind dislike? You know the guy who DIDN'T show up at his competitor with their world title.

[UKWildcat]

I'm about halfway through and just a note on the Gibson-Morton match. Gibson was coming off ACL surgery, which is the reason for the brace (not sure if it was mentioned, may have missed it)

 

Additionally, Morton completely ruined his time in the York Foundation. Granted, these days I'd cry if I went to watch a Morton match and he didnt have his mullet, but he should have ditched the mullet and bandanas and went with a yuppie look. Him keeping the mullet was saying "Yeah, this angle isn't going to last, so I'm keeping my old look when they turn me back"

[Loss]

I think it worked better with him keeping the mullet. I think the whole idea was that these guys were trying to go corporate yet had no idea how to do it because they were such clueless washouts who didn't realize times had changed. At least that's what I told myself.

[Matt D]

The bandanas felt like more of an issue to me.

[bradhindsight]

Pretty sure Loss can file a copyright infringement report on Will for totally stealing his wardrobe shtick on this pod. STAY IN YOUR LANE PAL.

[Matt D]

On the other hand, just imagine the tag team potential.

[UKWildcat]

I think it worked better with him keeping the mullet. I think the whole idea was that these guys were trying to go corporate yet had no idea how to do it because they were such clueless washouts who didn't realize times had changed. At least that's what I told myself.

That's an interesting look at it. Are you saying they should have done "Blue Blood skits" with Rich and Morton? Admittedly, I'd like to have seen it now that I'm thinking about it. Would have had some entertainment and fans (maybe) would have cared.

[goodhelmet]

I wouldn't have fired Flair but I'm not sure I would have kept him around either. He wasn't drawing anymore and his face run in 89 produced poor box office as well. I think Flair become an albatross in that nobody would get over as the new top guy as long as Flair was around with THAT crowd, but THAT crowd was dwindling and was no longer enough to make a company solvent.

 

Here's another question, given what Flair did here is there ANY justification to his condemnation of Bret Hart at the screwjob other than blind dislike? You know the guy who DIDN'T show up at his competitor with their world title.

[Loss]

There is criticism toward Flair you can find in all of that, namely not just agreeing to do the job at the Bash on the way out. But Flair had agreed to drop the title to Barry Windham on a house show. He was just fired before the show. He only left without dropping the title because Herd made the call that he wanted him gone.

[JerryvonKramer]

In addition he technically owned the belt, WCW didn't have any right to it. In addition Flair is the GOAT and Bret is a twat.

[Matt D]

True or false(I'm not 100%): Bret was drawing in 97 and Flair was not in 91?

[Loss]

Yes, that's true. The WWF was actually doing pretty well in most categories in 1996-1997, with television ratings being the big exception to that. Bret was their biggest PPV draw in 1997. Flair probably was for WCW too, but WCW business was still in the toilet.

[JerryvonKramer]

What difference does it make? Flair was fired by Herd for not accepting a paycut of 50%! He didn't refuse to job to anyone, he was fired. Flair didn't do anything wrong, he was fired.

 

Bret walked out on WWF for more money, and refused to job to Shawn. We all know the details of the Screw Job. Vince was in the right.

 

Why is Bret discussion infecting our WTBBP threads?

[Loss]

Because Montreal is a good analogy in terms of dropping the belt on the way out.