JerryvonKramer Posted November 23, 2014 Report Share Posted November 23, 2014 I reviewed five more 70s Jumbo matches here vs. Dory Funk or tagging with Baba vs. the Funks. He was just excellent in all of these matches, including the one from 1973 when he's *really* young. Great on offense whether working holds, throwing bombs and in strike exchanges, great at selling, great at showing fire and emotion, great intensity. He was in there with three real pros and didn't look out of place at all. The '75 tag match is a masterpiece. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeCampbell Posted November 24, 2014 Report Share Posted November 24, 2014 Is that from the Jumbo Legend commercial tape? If so, have it but don't think I've ever watched it. Something else for the agenda. I'm not sure of the source, but the date is what jumped out to me. It's right between two of the matches often listed as being the best of the '70's. Jumbo/Terry from 6/11/76 and Baba/Robinson from 7/24/76. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoe Posted November 24, 2014 Report Share Posted November 24, 2014 How is the Jumbo/Robinson 6/17/76 match? I remember liking it. I'll be revisiting pretty soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Childs Posted November 24, 2014 Report Share Posted November 24, 2014 It's actually a really clipped up version of a match that went 65 minutes. There's some very good stuff in there, as you'd expect from those two, but it's not as satisfying as the '77 matches. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted November 24, 2014 Report Share Posted November 24, 2014 What do you make of that 75 tag with the Funks, Childs? Might be the best match I've seen from the 70s so far, apart from those Abbey-Sheik tags I love so much. I'd have it ahead of the Brisco vs. Baba match I also put at ****3/4. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Childs Posted November 24, 2014 Report Share Posted November 24, 2014 You know, I haven't watched it or the tag league matches from '77-'79 in years, so they've run together a bit in my mind. I plan to take a spin through those matches when I'm deciding on a final placement for Jumbo. But I was always a fan of the series, even if there are dry patches in a few of the matches. When I looked at my AJPW rankings yesterday, I was struck by how many Jumbo matches filled the upper ranks and by the wide range of opponents in those matches. Put another way, I think I've been taking Jumbo for granted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NintendoLogic Posted November 24, 2014 Report Share Posted November 24, 2014 I recently came across a Jumbo/Fritz Von Erich match on Dailymotion. Truth be told, it's not much of a match, but it's interesting to see how Jumbo carries himself in an all-out brawl as opposed to an NWA-style technical match. It also reminds me that Fritz needs a thread of his own. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DR Ackermann Posted April 23, 2015 Report Share Posted April 23, 2015 I've been watching a lot of early 1990 AJPW before Tenryu left. In a number of tags and 6 mans, Jumbo is the 4th or 5th best guy. A lot of times there's really no rhyme or reason to what he does save for the important spots where he hits his marks very well. Tenryu is able to get SO MUCH more out of guys like Inoue and Takagi than Jumbo gets out of Fuyuki and Kawada. Jumbo just seems like he's on cruise control, he does the same bland moves over and over puts on a submission and then tags out before doing it all again when he gets back in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timbo Slice Posted April 23, 2015 Report Share Posted April 23, 2015 Jumbo has become a guy I've seriously considered as replacing Flair as my #1. I think he's the most enjoyable wrestler I've ever watched, and his three distinct periods (70's up and comer, 80's ace, 90's old man badass) offer so many different perspectives on him. I was trying to think of career arcs that were as good as his and I think the only guy I could come up with was Lawler. I know some people will say Funk, but Jumbo as The Man and Lawler as The Man are different compared to Funk as Grizzled Tough Old Outlaw. Right now, I'm thinking Flair and then a tough choice for me between Lawler and Jumbo. Funk 4th, probably Hansen 5th. But it's pretty much splitting hairs at this point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benjaminkicks Posted April 23, 2015 Report Share Posted April 23, 2015 Jumbo has become a guy I've seriously considered as replacing Flair as my #1. I think he's the most enjoyable wrestler I've ever watched, and his three distinct periods (70's up and comer, 80's ace, 90's old man badass) offer so many different perspectives on him. I was trying to think of career arcs that were as good as his and I think the only guy I could come up with was Lawler. I know some people will say Funk, but Jumbo as The Man and Lawler as The Man are different compared to Funk as Grizzled Tough Old Outlaw. Right now, I'm thinking Flair and then a tough choice for me between Lawler and Jumbo. Funk 4th, probably Hansen 5th. But it's pretty much splitting hairs at this point. Ha, you basically just named my working top 5 as well, though not in the same order. I would be super surprised at this point if my top 5 didn't end up being some combination of: Jumbo, Flair, Funk, Hansen, and Lawler Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DR Ackermann Posted April 23, 2015 Report Share Posted April 23, 2015 Replace Flair & Jumbo with Tenryu & Fujinami and that would likely be mine as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timbo Slice Posted April 23, 2015 Report Share Posted April 23, 2015 Tenryu and Fujinami are gonna be in my Top 10, but I'm not sure where. I don't think I can put Tenryu over Hansen and I like Tenryu a bit more than Fujinami. The overall top 10 is probably going to be uniform save one or two names and it's going to be close all the way down. It's really crazy to think just how close a bunch of these guys are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted April 23, 2015 Report Share Posted April 23, 2015 Jumbo > Tenryu without doubt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimmas Posted April 23, 2015 Author Report Share Posted April 23, 2015 Jumbo > Tenryu without doubt. How much older Tenryu have you seen? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted April 23, 2015 Report Share Posted April 23, 2015 Not enough, I'd like to see a selection. I can already rule him out being better than Jumbo though because that's not happening. I was one of the few people who preferred Jumbo to Tenryu even in the 86 Choshu tags. I actually didn't like Tenryu that much until the Jumbo feud itself after which he he amazing sure. But I don't see Tenryu in my top 10. And even if he does make my top ten, he's not going ahead of Flair or Jumbo. I do see people who are anti-Flair or anti-Jumbo as being "contrarian", but you'll always get that with establishment GOAT picks. Also, Jumbo in the 70s > young Tenyru and then some. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DR Ackermann Posted April 23, 2015 Report Share Posted April 23, 2015 Based on what I've seen, if Tenryu's career ended when Jumbo's did then Jumbo would be miles ahead. But it didn't, and Tenryu goes on, in my mind, to blow Jumbo away. I place a big premium on how well a wrestler performs outside of the 'big' matches. I like to see what they do with the stuff that isn't top tier. All of it matters though.To me Jumbo is a big match guy. A lot of his throwaway matches bore me. A lot of his praised ones do too, though. Tenryu on the other hand makes most of his matches feel more important than they are. His minifeud with Isao Takagi in early 1990 is really good. All the stuff he's doing with Jumbo's underlings during that time is so much fun to watch and the best parts all happen when Jumbo is on the apron. Thank god Misawa and co. stepped up so much when they did in 1990. I don't like either Misawa/Jumbo match from that year, but the tags and six-mans are great. As far as being anti-Flair or anti-Jumbo, thats simply not the case. Flair is a GOAT candidate without a doubt. At the end of the day wrestling is supposed to be fun and while Jumbo can be great, more often than not I'm bored watching him wrestle. I used to think the Phil Schneider Jumbo/Terry Taylor line was just silly, but it actually really fits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DR Ackermann Posted April 23, 2015 Report Share Posted April 23, 2015 I don't think I can put Tenryu over Hansen and I like Tenryu a bit more than Fujinami. I go back and forth on this all the time. I'd normally put Hansen right above Tenryu, just barely, but then I'll watch Tenryu wrestle and realize how much I discount his ability. If only his execution was just a bit better... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted April 23, 2015 Report Share Posted April 23, 2015 That Schnieder line is baffling to me. I don't understand the people who think Jumbo is dull. He's a guy who performs every fucking move like it's a finisher that can kill you. His basic bodyslam is probably the best basic bodyslam in the history of wrestling. For me Jumbo excels in almost every area. All round performance, charisma, psychology, timing. His FACE is great. If you want to go the Great Match Theory route, he's got a metric ton from 72 to 92. Twenty years of quality matches against a variety of opponents across three different generations. Are you saying we should play that down because he occasionally phoned it in during random tags? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DR Ackermann Posted April 23, 2015 Report Share Posted April 23, 2015 I don't understand the people who think Jumbo is dull. He's a guy who performs every fucking move like it's a finisher that can kill you. His basic bodyslam is probably the best basic bodyslam in the history of wrestling. That's not really true. He has horrible punches, a horrible piledriver. For me Jumbo excels in almost every area. All round performance, charisma, psychology, timing. His FACE is great. If you want to go the Great Match Theory route, he's got a metric ton from 72 to 92. Twenty years of quality matches against a variety of opponents across three different generations. Are you saying we should play that down because he occasionally phoned it in during random tags? I'm just not seeing it that way. Yeah he seems angry and does these really intense moves, but then what? He has this intensity in the moment and then it's gone. He hits a monster knee, hits a monster bodyslam then puts on a single leg crab and then just stops. He is a very good wrestler, at times great, but the argument that he has tons of great matches doesn't mean anything to me when I personally don't feel like a lot of them are all that great. Certainly there are great ones, but he was also working with the cream of the crop for 20 years. I'm not saying he phoned it in necessarily, I just don't think he was dynamic enough to bring much more than what he brought in a lot of those tags or singles matches for that matter. I see him mostly as a guy that worked an oldschool NWA style with big high spots that meshed with certain people and didn't with others. It comes down to this: Do I enjoy watching him? Usually no. Why not? He's boring. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted April 23, 2015 Report Share Posted April 23, 2015 I am planning on writing a long full length article sometime in the next month on the process/art of list making and Jumbo will be a person I talk about some in that piece. For now I will just say that I am beginning to struggle more and more with how to rank someone like Jumbo. On the one hand I agree with the consensus argument that Jumbo was a great pro wrestler. While some of his highly pimped matches I think are pretty overrated, you can say that for almost any great worker, and he has plenty of matches and performances that I think are clearly outstanding. On the other hand I just cannot stand watching him wrestle at all. To a degree this gets into the "my favorite" v. "the best" debate, but it goes a bit beyond that because my reaction to Jumbo is a sort of visceral contempt at this stage. I react to his presence in a match the same way Cena-haters claim they do with one difference - where most Cena haters will still watch Cena work, I have gotten to the point where I will avoid a Jumbo match at all costs. This is not an exaggeration. I watch tons and tons of wrestling, probably as much or more than anyone on this forum. I have watched lots of shit for the purposes of this project. I don't think I have watched a single Jumbo match for it and have actively avoided watching matches of his that have come up in playlists and sets that I have been watching for the purpose of this project. This presents two problems. The first is that it is pretty damn hard to reevaluate/assess a wrestler relative to others when you aren't watching him. That said I have watched tons of Jumbo in the past so I find this to be more of a minor problem than a major one. The far worse problem is that over time I struggle more and more with the notion that someone can actually be great if I'd rather wash dishes, do the laundry, hit my testicles with a hammer, than watch him wrestle. One can make the "be objective!" argument all they want, but the fact remains that there are probably a thousand wrestlers I'd rather watch work than him. There are other people I am sick of to one degree or another, but with Jumbo it's not that I'm sick of him - I cannot even stand the idea of watching him. And it's increasingly hard for me to believe that I should ignore that reality when rating him relative to others. As for the point Parv makes at the end of his post above, I don't necessarily think Jumbo phoning it in (cue JDW coming in to argue against Jumbo being lazy) on house shows is more important than the great matches, but in a head-to-head assessment against other all time greats I find the argument that it shouldn't matter at all less than persuasive. Ideally you have someone has lots of great matches and is super consistent. If not I suppose you try to strike a balance when assessing people who excel more in one area than the other. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted April 24, 2015 Report Share Posted April 24, 2015 I do see people who are anti-Flair or anti-Jumbo as being "contrarian", but you'll always get that with establishment GOAT picks. How boring is this? Shows no forward thinking since 2006. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted April 24, 2015 Report Share Posted April 24, 2015 I do see people who are anti-Flair or anti-Jumbo as being "contrarian", but you'll always get that with establishment GOAT picks. How boring is this? Shows no forward thinking since 2006. Is the point of GWE to be accurate or novel? I have a major disconnect with people like Dylan, Ackerman and Schneider on Jumbo. I just don't even get the criticisms. I'll post all the matches of his I've given ****1/2+ to later on. Not yet done with his 70s because there are bouts against Billy Robinson and Bock to come. But based on what is on tape, Jumbo is probably a top 10 worker for that decade as well as the next and in 90-2. Only Terry Funk can make a similar claim. Flair has a later start, Baba drops off in the 80s, Fujinami is done by the 90s and has a late start. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted April 24, 2015 Report Share Posted April 24, 2015 Fujinami has a late start, but based on what is available I think he was clearly better in the 70's than Jumbo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted April 24, 2015 Report Share Posted April 24, 2015 Wait until the list later, but I'd be interested to see how you justify that claim. I should mention that from what I've seen of Fujinami so far, he is one guy I can see making my top 10 easily. And I've only done 80-81. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted April 24, 2015 Report Share Posted April 24, 2015 I think his work as late 70's junior ace is outstanding and amazing considering the variety of opponents he was working against. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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