Stan Hansen

[ohtani's jacket]

I quite liked the 8/92 Triple Crown match. It was a nice blend of an older, more traditional build mixed with slightly more modern elements, and decidedly different from anything Hansen was doing with the other kids. Whoever raised the point about Hansen's matches against Misawa being deliberately different than against Kawada or Kobashi is spot on. The only thing I didn't love was the finish. Misawa knocking Hsnsen out with his elbow is a bit of a hard sell, but I really wish Misawa hadn't gone down afterward and teased the double knockout and rolled him over straight away or fallen on top of him after hitting the elbow. Everybody "feels" finishing stretches differently, but to me the pause before rolling him over was a false note. I can understand trying to milk the moment for all it's worth, but I would have bought the knock out blow more if Hansen hadn't stayed down for so long.

[ohtani's jacket]

I liked how the 1993 Champion Carnival final was worked as a slugfest. There's some serious suspension of disbelief needed when watching Hansen vs. Misawa. You have to buy that Misawa is a tougher opponent for Hansen than anyone else and that his bionic elbow hurts Hansen more than any other strike. At least by working a slugfest there was an accumulative effect to all those strikes. The lariat vs. elbow collision was a nice spot and Hansen's selling was money. Whoever laid out the finishing stretches to these matches didn't do as good a job as usual as Misawa vs. Hansen matches aren't half as dramatic as a typical Hansen bout; but Stan in Peril was nicely done, the not-quite-underdog-ish victory was well earned, the "fuck yes!" celebration a classic bit of lipreading material, and the sling made out of streamers a nice post-match touch. Not too many mentions of Misawa there. He was solid in this, but IMO he'd reach a whole 'nother level in 1994.

[ohtani's jacket]

I thought the 5/93 Misawa/Hansen match was set-up really well even if the finishes to the 8/92 and 4/93 bouts hadn't been as well laid out as they might have been, but talk about the worst, most boring, uninspired build in their feud. The stretch run was better than their previous bouts, but by that stage it was too late. If ever a match deserved its disappointing rep this is it. My prevailing memory of this is going to be Misawa applying the face lock and getting absolutely no purchase on it.

[ohtani's jacket]

The 7/90 Misawa/Hansen match isn't very good, but I'll cut Misawa some slack here as he was trying to be the "new hero" and I don't think he had much clue how to do that only a month after beating Jumbo. Plus it wasn't much of a 90s "King's Road" bout (to borrow a term I kind of hate.) There were a couple of times when Misawa used a chair and he even tried to use Hansen's bull rope, which was a throwback to old-school All Japan and not what I'd call progressive in terms of the King's Road style. Even Hansen wasn't that great in this, but it's really early in his program with the kids.

[ohtani's jacket]

I talked myself into watching Hansen's entire run with Spivey, but gave up about two matches in. I'm sure it got better at some point, but Hansen's work wasn't at all good in the matches I saw.

[JerryvonKramer]

The 1996 Hansen/Kobashi match was... not very good. I was surprised by how many people liked this on the '96 Yearbook. It seems obvious to me that they didn't know how to work a match where Kobashi was the champion and Hansen the challenger. The commentator wouldn't stop mentioning how young Kobashi was, how he was the new champion and the fact Hansen was 47 and yet Kobashi looked worse here than he did in 1991-93 and the match was devoid of any new ideas.

I rewatched the '96 Hansen-Kobashi, expecting that I'd want to make a full-throated defense. But I have to confess I didn't enjoy it as much this time around. Hansen's performance was excellent. I liked the way he relied on a lot of cheap little counter shots early in the match, because he could no longer bull his way through Kobashi. And he made the second half of the match with his selling of the posted lariat arm. He really captured the wounded old bear vibe. But there was something off in Kobashi's performance. He sold being knocked silly by some of Hansen's early shots, which left him nowhere to go when Stan hit his real bombs down the stretch. And he was all over the place with his attack. I thought the basic premise of the match--that Hansen no longer had Kobashi outgunned--worked. So I don't agree they had no idea what they were doing. But the match needed a more commanding performance from Kobashi to go from good to great.

Will be reviewing this match on AJ Excite later tonight, just wanted to say that I appreciate OJ's willingness to be a voice of critical dissent because it makes for a richer discourse.

 

This is a great example of it in action.

[InYourCase]

Hansen will be my #1 when I submit my ballot. I had seen very little of him going into this project. The famed '93 Kobashi match for sure and only a handful of others. Everything from Japan, Puerto Rico, and America that I watched of Hansen was all new to me and it blew my mind.

 

I put value into non-Japanese workers succeeding in Japan. There's something there that I just can't ignore. Hansen, more so in All Japan, was treated as royalty and feared like the monster that he was. It was a thing of beauty. Outside of the 4/3/1980 match with Inoki, the infamous Andre match, and a fun, six minute sprint with Fujinami, Hansen's run in New Japan doesn't wow me. It's good, with the Andre match being out-of-this-world great, but that run is just a minor blip of what made him so great. From the beginning of his All Japan run, though, he turns it up to a level that I didn't know existed.

 

DiBiase was a bubble guy for me, but he fell off after underperforming in nearly all of the tags I've seen with Hansen. He looked awkward and uncomfortable while Hansen fit like a glove. Brody, Spivey, DiBiase, Vader, and Gordy were all, at times, very good when teaming with Hansen, but not once did I ever feel like Hansen was the weak link. In a lot of my notes for 80s tags, I remark about how well Hansen controlled the ring. Everything seemed to revolve around him in one way or another. If he was in the ring, he was dominant. He may have gone down, but it wasn't without a fight. In matches like 12/12/85 (Hansen & Ted vs. Choshu & Yatsu) everything is so much more calm when Hansen is not in the ring. It was his aura that made the match exciting.

 

One thing I really appreciated about Hansen's singles matches, especially in Japan, was the violence he portrayed while brawling on the outside of the ring .I hate walk-n-brawls. Jeff Jarrett has never done anything for me. Same with Dreamer. But when Hansen is on the outside, the match feels so much more dangerous. You don't know what he's going to do or what body part he is going to target, but it's going to hurt. The 10/21/86 match with Jumbo is probably the best example of this.

 

1990's Hansen is another animal. I don't know if there's ever been a greater contrast than 1991 Kobashi and 1991 Hansen. LOVE their 9/4/91 encounter. The Kawada match from February 1993 is one of my favorite matches of the decade. It's perfect. It's exactly what it needed to be and it's both guys and their very best. The 9/3//1994 Akiyama singles match is another fun one. Akiyama is so plucky, so full of life, and so ready to thrive, but Hansen is simply not in the mood for that shit. I can't really call it a squash match, but it's one of my favorite one-sided matches ever. The amazing thing is that even when he slowed down towards the end of his All Japan run, he still looked great. I love the Vader/Hansen duo. The 12/5/98 match with those two vs. Kobashi & Akiyama is a blast. Even going into post-Baba era, I think Hansen is incredible in the 7/23/00 tag. There he is noticeably slow and actually looks really bad on the outside with Tenryu at one point, but in between the ropes, he was awesome.

 

The one major knock I have against Hansen is that he never had a match with Misawa that I liked. I couldn't get into any of them. I respected what they were trying to go for, more so in the 7/27/90 match than any of their other encounters, but I could never get fully invested in them. Even with that, he pulled watchable stuff out of Baba and Inoki, which I value a lot. Inoki rarely is involved in stuff I like and I think Baba's best work was against Hansen.

 

Moving away from Japan, I direct everyone to JvK's comments about the Colon vs. Hansen feud. I echo his thoughts. The Colon feud sets Hansen apart from the rest of the pack. From an in-ring standpoint, Kobashi, who is currently my #2, has a higher peak and while he offers a different set of assets in-ring compared to Hansen, is probably even in terms of skill, but Kobashi wasn't involved in anything like the Colon feud. I love it. I don't think I'll have time to go back and rewatch the feud before ballots are due, but I'm going to soon. I loved it.

 

The Bruno cage match, Backlund singles match from 1981, and his pimped stuff from AWA is all really good. I wish he had a chance to shine in WCW against Sting and/or Flair, because then I think he'd be a runaway #1 with a lot of people, but his AWA run shows that he could thrive in the US. The Leon White match is a blast. I hate the finish, but I'm a huge fan of the Bock match from 4/20/86. All of that is just padding to his greatest wrestler ever case.

 

I've enjoyed very few people's selling more than Hansen. It's like a don't poke the bear thing. He's always angry, but little things can happen throughout the course of a match, whether it be one too many kicks from Kawada or a chop that was just a little too stiff from Tenryu that will set him off. Still, I've never seen him blowoff limb work. Even when his arm is worked over, there is a sense of pain there that not many people can portray.

 

Hansen is going to be my #1. His offense is too good, his peak is too high, he was great for too long, and his selling was too outstanding for anyone to touch him.

[JerryvonKramer]

Out of interest, did you watch his WWF, Memphis or AWA runs? And if so, do you think "reall good" adequately covers them?

 

Cos I feel Hansen gets a bit of an easy ride in general in all three.

[InYourCase]

Out of interest, did you watch his WWF, Memphis or AWA runs?

I mentioned both the WWWF and AWA runs. Only thing I saw from Memphis was the Bunkhouse match with Austin Idol, which I thought was fine. Is there anything I should check out from Memphis?

[Childs]

Out of interest, did you watch his WWF, Memphis or AWA runs? And if so, do you think "reall good" adequately covers them?

 

Cos I feel Hansen gets a bit of an easy ride in general in all three.

I don't think he gets an easy ride on Memphis as much as it was just a short run that wasn't significant to his career.

 

His AWA work certainly got a good look from a lot of people so I'm not sure how he got off easy there. Either people liked his stuff or they didn't.

 

Your point is best taken on WWF and really on his '70s work in general, which wasn't as good as his '80s and '90s.

[JerryvonKramer]

Nah it's just the Idol run. But it struck me pretty much as an exact carbon replica of the Luger WCW run from years later. Both are pretty Hansen-by-numbers. And both are less than inspired performances from him coming in to pick up a cheque. I mean, it's not a huge problem, Terry Funk seems a bit like that in Southwest footage (for example), but it's there and is kinda glazed over as stuff that adds to rather than detracts from his case.

 

I don't like the Backlund matches much, cos I think Backlund gobbles him too much. But other workers -- supposedly lesser workers -- had better matches with Backlund. And the AWA stuff was good, but I felt it should be BETTER given increased expectations. I mean he was working Martel and Slaughter. Those should have been pushing all-time status, you'd have hoped.

 

I have Hansen pretty damn high on my list, and he is likely gonna finish #1 in the collected project result. But I do think he has disappointing performances and matches that don't live up to what you'd hope, on several different occassions. The Jumbo series could have been better, for example.

 

Like Hansen is awesome don't get me wrong, but he's had a habit of riding out nitpicking of this sort while other candidates haven't really been given such a pass. So while Bret is being hauled over for his house shows, or Ted is being questioned for having disappointing matches with the Ultimate Warrior Japan, or old-man Flair is being accused of being the worst worker in the world in 2004, Hansen has a very different narrative pushed about him. The closest I've seen is Matt D asking why no one criticises his work in the Brody tags.

 

I can see him as a solid #1 pick and he has a lot of the right goods to make a really strong case. But y'know, I think he has flaws like any other candidate.

[goc]

I had Hansen in my #1 ranked match on the AWA set. He didn't get an "easy ride" on his work in AWA while the set discussion was going on. He had some stuff people really liked and some stuff people thought was disappointing because they could have been better (mostly the Slaughter matches which most people put more on Slaughter wanting to be lazy than Hansen)

[JerryvonKramer]

I kinda do want Hansen to finish #1 overall, just cos I think it'll be interesting to see.

[funkdoc]

yea, to speak more to what goc said, outside-the-ring issues contributed to some of Hansen's disappointing US matches.

 

i think i posted about this elsewhere, but the Backlund feud had backstage politics factoring into it. and that directly impacted the match structure in at least one case (the MSG cage blowoff). it may be interesting to argue whether Hansen deserves blame for holding up Vince Sr. and leading to that, and if that's something you should factor into your GWE metrics.

[Dylan Waco]

I think the idea that Hansen hasn't been scrutinized is bizarre. Matt D's critique of him was probably the most detailed critique I've seen anyone make of a number one contender not named Flair.

 

To me Memphis is by the numbers but certainly not bad. I've barely seen the WWWF stuff so I don't have a fixed opinion on it.

 

I struggle with the idea that the AWA should be seen as anything other than a massive positive. I don't know that I saw him have a single bad match there, and he had legitimate great ones v. green as grass Vader, young babyface Curt Hennig, and waning days of physical usefulness Blackwell. The Bock match is very good and probably couldn't have been much better. I'll buy the Martel stuff as disappointing, though it's hard to render major judgment there because of the nature of the feud. I don't see the Slaughter feud as disappointing really - yes they don't have a true all time classic, but I think the matches range from good to bordeline great.

 

There are criticisms you can throw at Hansen, just as you can throw them at any wrestler. But we may not agree on those criticism or how much they should be considered in a ranking like this. That's not giving anyone a pass.

[JerryvonKramer]

I'd like people to talk more about Stan Hansen and consistency.

 

So less about whether or not particular runs were good, and more about what Hansen was like on your typical random tour match or RWTL match vs undercarders.

 

Not convinced it is an especially strong suit for him.

[Childs]

He was consistent in the sense he was very much himself in every match. That led to him rolling right over a lot of lower card opponents, but if you find the Hansen storm compelling, he usually brought it. I guess it depends what you're looking for.

[InYourCase]

I'd like people to talk more about Stan Hansen and consistency.

 

So less about whether or not particular runs were good, and more about what Hansen was like on your typical random tour match or RWTL match vs undercarders.

 

Not convinced it is an especially strong suit for him.

I've seen very few Hansen performances, if anyone, where he's looked actively bad or less than good. Even if he spent a night hanging around the apron, I still feel like he made his presence felt in a way that someone like Misawa didn't. You could say that's what Baba wanted from his ace and that's cool, but Hansen's tag performances blow away someone like Misawa's on a night-to-night basis.

[JerryvonKramer]

He was consistent in the sense he was very much himself in every match. That led to him rolling right over a lot of lower card opponents, but if you find the Hansen storm compelling, he usually brought it. I guess it depends what you're looking for.

This is sort of what I was getting at the with the Abby comment I guess. Like Abby was Abby every night, so that means he's as consistent as Hansen? If not, why not?

 

 

 

I'd like people to talk more about Stan Hansen and consistency.

 

So less about whether or not particular runs were good, and more about what Hansen was like on your typical random tour match or RWTL match vs undercarders.

 

Not convinced it is an especially strong suit for him.

I've seen very few Hansen performances, if anyone, where he's looked actively bad or less than good. Even if he spent a night hanging around the apron, I still feel like he made his presence felt in a way that someone like Misawa didn't. You could say that's what Baba wanted from his ace and that's cool, but Hansen's tag performances blow away someone like Misawa's on a night-to-night basis.

Well, to be honest, I'm not really buying the "Misawa was inconsistent in tags" talking point for the reason I've outlined,

 

"Blow away" seems like genuine hyperbole to me, as someone who has watched an awful lot of both in tag settings over the last five years.

[Childs]

For me, it comes back to: Do you find basic Hansen compelling? I do. The Japanese fans did. But you have to make that decision for yourself. I wouldn't describe him as inconsistent though.

[GOTNW]

I just roll my eyes whenever people say Misawa was the "worst" performer in 6/9/95 or something like that. You have this entire match built on the narrative of Kawada finally beating Misawa and Kawada/Taue finally beating Misawa/Kobashi (both of which Misawa's ace status was crucial in), the entire finishing stretch is built on Misawa's superhuman ability to come back from devastating beatings and him breaking his ace character by showing vulnerability (like when he rolled out of the ring which may be the best spot in wrestling no one ever talks about), he sacrifices his Frog Splash so Kobashi can finally hit his Moonsault, Kobashi does all in his power to ruin the match in the end when he tries to make it about himself yet somehow HE is the best performer in it. Yeah. Ok.

[JerryvonKramer]

Guess an easier way of putting it is: do you think he's a perfect 10 on consistency or more like a 7?

 

I think I'd say he was a 7 where someone like Arn was a 10.

[JerryvonKramer]

I just roll my eyes whenever people say Misawa was the "worst" performer in 6/9/95 or something like that. You have this entire match built on the narrative of Kawada finally beating Misawa and Kawada/Taue finally beating Misawa/Kobashi (both of which Misawa's ace status was crucial in), the entire finishing stretch is built on Misawa's superhuman ability to come back from devastating beatings and him breaking his ace character by showing vulnerability (like when he rolled out of the ring which may be the best spot in wrestling no one ever talks about), he sacrifices his Frog Splash so Kobashi can finally hit his Moonsault, Kobashi does all in his power to ruin the match in the end when he tries to make it about himself yet somehow HE is the best performer in it. Yeah. Ok.

I think Misawa does so many routinely awesome things that it's easy to take them for granted a bit.

 

I've been watching out especially for what he does in tag matches recently and he was just an exceptional pro wrestler. I don't quite understand the point about him not being consistent during the peak run. He lets the partner shine sometimes, but everything he does within the context of those matches is on point.

[Childs]

Guess an easier way of putting it is: do you think he's a perfect 10 on consistency or more like a 7?

 

I think I'd say he was a 7 where someone like Arn was a 10.

Yeah, you took the words out of my mouth. If I were doing a consistency rating, Stan would not be at the very top. More like a 7 or 8. Among the All Japan guys, I'd give Kobashi a higher score for sure. I'd have to think more about Misawa, Kawada and Jumbo.

[InYourCase]

Kobashi

Kawada

Hansen

Jumbo

Misawa

 

That's the way I'd rank it. I've seen Misawa have too many lame singles matches. I don't know how we all zoned in on his tag performances. I've seen him have a ton of lackluster singles matches while analyzing him in this project.