Blue Panther

[Grimmas]

Discuss here.

[Matt D]

I'm probably not the guy to start this, but I do have some thoughts.

 

I've actively watched quite a bit of Blue Panther over a large span of time recently. He is absolutely a guy who can get pushed to the back in trios matches, especially when he has someone like Fuerza Guerrera in front of him. That said, being placed in the role of "mat-worker in the primera caida matched up against another mat-worker" isn't a mark of shame, especially when someone can implement such effortless work, whether it be complex or just competitive.

 

Where I've been especially impressed, however, is seeing him in different roles. He's tremendously effective when matched up with someone for a fiery/heated brawl, and almost amazingly so when he's there to do the comedy and shtick and character work, in that Fuerza role. I think he's also wrestled very well as an aged tecnico and transitioned strongly after losing the match to where he puts on strong performances with more emoting even if he's lost some of that mystique.

 

And from what little I've seen of him in singles matches (no apuestas matches and just a few title matches), I do think I've seen evidence that he's more than able to put all of these complicated roles together into a total package.

 

I have a lot more to see, though.

[Goodear]

I cannot goddamn stand Blue Panther to the point I am starting to become concerned that I may be going mad since so many people like him so much. I just don't see this all time great. I see a guy who has a high number of holds stored in his memory bank and nothing else. I've watched primarily current stuff as I'm trying to keep reasonably timely on lucha so I understand I'm seeing a guy well past his prime. But he just doesn't do anything to make me think he understands what he is doing out there. I watched a match with Averno turn on Panther seemingly not understanding how rope breaks work and that's just poor construction. I keep watching this guys matches thinking it is going to click with me at some point and it never does.

[shoe]

He's not the best Lucha guy, but he may be my favorite . I love him on the mat. My dream match of his was Blue Panther vs. Jim Breaks.

[DylanZero]

I'm kind of in agreement with shoe. Really loved his style and even his recent old man run has yielded some very good performances and that's to me where he evens the gap a bit against some of these other guys. I would probably say there are at least two guys firmly ahead of him in Lucha Libre and at least 1 or 2 more I thought were better in their primes. His high marks are longevity & versatility in the roles he's good-great at moreso than just a long list of amazing matches (though he has a few).

 

Top 5 Luchador? Top 20 overall? High vote? None of those are out of the question on my ballot though besides the last one they're a bit unlikely.

[W2BTD]

Probably my favorite mat based lucha guy from back in the 90's before lucha lost my full attention. I still enjoy his old man stuff today, although he's showing serious signs lately of being washed up.

[DylanZero]

Really? I thought he was the man of the match in the 6-man at Aniversario, and that was while teaming with two really good wrestlers, and against two really good wrestlers. (Felino was okay too) Also last year he had arguably the best match of the show vs Averno. No doubt he takes some nights off nowadays but when it's time for a big performance? My man always delivers.

[ohtani's jacket]

I've seen so many disappointing Blue Panther matches that I sometimes wonder if he's overrated or if my expectations for him are simply too high. I don't think he's a great singles match worker, which would be my big knock on him.

[Exposer]

I love Panther on the mat. He will be on my list. Don't quite know where yet. Still have things to see.

[Yo-Yo's Roomie]

Lock city, and I imagine he will place somewhere between 30 and 50. I saw too many disappointing matches from him to where I'd consider him an absolute upper-echelon luchador (the Art Barr matches in particular were disappointing as hell, the Octagon matches, vs. Super Astro), but his highs are so high that he is just right below that. As good as he was on the mat, I actually prefer him using cheap heel tactics, or as a brawling old man. Great fire and emotion, and sold way better than he did when he was younger. The mask match against Villano V is a must-see. One of my favourite matches.

[Jimmy Redman]

Looking at who hasn't had any discussion in the last 12 months or so, this guy stood out.

 

He'll definitely be on my ballot somewhere, but I'm having trouble placing him (like a lot of luchadors). He's one of the few lucha guys that I enjoy watching run through their mat routine, and he's also good at rudoing it up, stooging and brawling. Am I out on a ledge in saying that he's far better as a rudo?

 

Where are we on Panther?

[ohtani's jacket]

I don't think Panther is a great rudo. In fact, I find a lot of his rudo trios work to pretty weak in comparison to guys like Satanico, Emilio Charles Jr, Fuerza Guerrera or Fiera. As a singles match worker, I guess he was better as a rudo, but he was never really booked in apuesta feuds so it wasn't a big part of his character.

[Matt D]

I don't think Panther is a great rudo. In fact, I find a lot of his rudo trios work to pretty weak in comparison to guys like Satanico, Emilio Charles Jr, Fuerza Guerrera or Fiera. As a singles match worker, I guess he was better as a rudo, but he was never really booked in apuesta feuds so it wasn't a big part of his character.

 

The multiman rudo performances of Panther I liked the most were ones where he didn't have Fuerza (or someone of that ilk) with him and he had to play that more dickish role, if that makes sense.

[ohtani's jacket]

I don't even think he was impressive at that, but honestly being the foil, or supporting act, in a trios match is such an important part of a rudo's role that it's still a fail in my book.

[Matt D]

I also feel like his mainstream CMLL Work hasn't popped up from between 00-05 as much as other people for some reason. That might just be my perception though.

[Jetlag]

I don't think Panther is a great rudo. In fact, I find a lot of his rudo trios work to pretty weak in comparison to guys like Satanico, Emilio Charles Jr, Fuerza Guerrera or Fiera. As a singles match worker, I guess he was better as a rudo, but he was never really booked in apuesta feuds so it wasn't a big part of his character.

 

I think not being on the same level as the best rudos ever isn't a big knock against someone. It really may be your expectations. I'm not very familiar with Panther's rudo work but I really enjoyed his amusing bumping and stooging while working in Hamada's UWF.

 

As far as placing Panther goes, he'll be about in my Top 20-30. He's had a loaded career with great mat performances, quality singles matches and that really great late career feud with Casas. And he's still been damn good in the last couple years. I guess you could make the argument that he's a bit of a one trick pony but when your trick is hitting the mat hard and being as awesome as he is I simply don't care.

[cad]

Yes, for whatever reason Blue Panther not only seems to get a pass for not being well rounded but gets people saying that he actually is. When I see his name in a six-man my thinking is "If I get Panther showing off his holds, great, and if not... ?" In a lot of contexts I don't have a good idea of what he brings to the table above and beyond any other capable rudo. To me he ranks with someone like Jerry Estrada, another wrestler with spectacular skills and big holes in his game. Panther's skills are more impressive and harder to hone, Estrada's are more practical. It about evens out.

[Jingus]

I'll say this about Panther: he's probably the only luchadore on my list whom I never saw work in American promotions. There's just something special about that guy, far beyond his ability to do some wacky matwork. To me, he had the ephemeral It~!, that certain Special Something which made everything he did feel more important and credible. I know that's the lamest and vaguest compliment you can ever give any performer because you're basically saying "I don't know why I like this guy so much", but I do indeed like him that much. There's just something about him which feels like pure, unfiltered greatness.

[ohtani's jacket]

I think not being on the same level as the best rudos ever isn't a big knock against someone. It really may be your expectations. I'm not very familiar with Panther's rudo work but I really enjoyed his amusing bumping and stooging while working in Hamada's UWF..

If the discussion is about whether he was a great rudo then of course I'm going to compare him to other great rudos, especially his peers. Being a capable rudo seems a fair way off what Jimmy was implying. I think Panther was good as the third guy in a rudo trio with two other charismatic performers but never that good as the second guy, and I can t remember him ever having a great lead performance In a trios bout. Having said that, I really don't like mask ripping in trios matches and that was often a staple of Panther's rudo work.

 

I agree that he gets a free ride. He's a guy that was always known as that great lucha worker and mat worker that everyone talked about who never got much scrutiny. I admit I have an idealised version of Panther and that many of my disappointments are because he didn't match my ideal, but I don't see why his bad work should be brushed under the carpet just because he's Blue Panther and a luchador and lucha needs all the support it can get.

[Matt D]

I thought I remembered a match where he took that first rudo role because no one else who normally would was with him where I thought he did a good job with it, but the best I could find was the

 

2004-10-8 - Arts Exhibition "Arena Mexico" University of Essex

 

match vs Hijo del Santo which was a weird one given the audience so he was playing it more broadly than usual. Not even a trios.

[Jimmy Redman]

A lot of the trios that I watch all blend together, so I can't really point to any specific Panther performances off the top of my head. I just know that after my watching the impression of Panther that I got is that I like him both as a tecnico mat wizard, and as a rudo. As a rudo I find that in singles matches his role is less out-and-out rudo and more a guy who can hang with the tecnico on the mat and then be a base for him as it opens up. More base than rudo, if you will. He's more of a stooge in trios matches, but at the same time his role in them often seems to be a guy who works the mat with a secondary tecnico, as opposed to out-and-out dicking it up or being featured prominently. I don't find his trios work to be a major selling point, but I do enjoy him when I see him in one.

 

In any case, his rudo work (or "work on the rudo side" I guess) sticks out to me a little more. Maybe because I have a hard time getting into matwork, so that side of him appeals to me less than it does to others. I don't know. This is all just my first impression, which is why I posed the question to the class in the first place. It's lucha, I don't know what the hell I'm talking about.

 

 

To me his major selling point is his big singles matches. Atlantis in 1991 and 1997, Super Astro in 1992, Villano V in 2008...he delivers.

[ohtani's jacket]

I think he's hit and miss in singles. Not really a fan of the Super Astro match. I remember the Angel Azteca bout from the same year being flawed but interesting and disliking the Ultimo Dragon bout. The Love Machine apuesta match is awful. The Octagon bouts as well. If you haven't seen the two Monterrey bouts from 2000, I really love both of those. And the El Mariachi bout I remember liking, but I have a dreadful feeling it wouldn't hold up these days.

[Matt D]

OJ,

 

They're off youtube, but this is one of the Monterrey ones, right?

 

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x1c12z8_el-hijo-del-santo-vs-blue-panther-5-28-00_sport

[ohtani's jacket]

Looks like that's both of them. The April one is linked to the side.

[Matt D]

Cubsfan posted this comment yesterday:

 

6) Ephesto, Luciferno, Mephisto © bBlue Panther, Blue Panther Jr., The Panther [MEX TRIOS]
13:24. Hijo del Infierno took 2/3 in a very good match. Hijos del Infierno 3rd defense

Main event is the match worth watching; they worked very hard and they had the usual Blue Panther creativity in match layout.

Someone actually on twitter should try to get him to expand those thoughts a little. It's not something that's been talked about here at all.