Daniel Bryan

[Jimmy Redman]

I actually like the first match of the series, the Pure Rules one from April 2006 the best.

[MJH]

I would need to re-watch the San Antonio (?) Raw match to determine a true comparison, but the '08 Bryan/Cesaro match told me both were better in the WWE. It's not that the ROH match is bad, per se, though it's nothing special certainly, but there's really not a lot to recommend it on. The opening mat-work doesn't establish anything though it's - in the main (there's two notably loose/weak spots: first when Cesaro grabs an arm/Fujiwara out of a bow-and-arrow attempt and Bryan gives himself/rolls over far too easily; the second where it's clearly Bryan bumping off the knucklelock rather than being powered/thrown down) - generally worked fine, and I can accept the rolling knucklelock sequence as a cheap pop; Claudio/Cesaro's strength doesn't come into play at all until the (weak) spot to set up Claudio's control (I'd say "cut off"/transition normally but it's not like Bryan was dominant beforehand). The work on the back is OK, even if Bryan's selling the lower-back and most of the offence is upper-back/neck, and they do a good job working the surfboard (it would've been nice had it not come so easily for Bryan later on), but the control is nothing exceptional or even above routine. Things escalate (noticeably) quickly for a couple of near falls and then Bryan counters the post-up->uppercut with a backslide to win. They're clearly just winging something decent - think run-of-the-mill house-show match - but whereas in the WWE system you're guaranteed a tighter structure, the putting-together of this match is very loose and half-arsed. Like I said at the start: it's not that either guy, nor the match, is actively bad, but it's also not the half-arsing of finished products/performers either, and that this and the Nigel match are from 2008, not 2002/3 (when Bryan already had quite the rep but you're to expect him being lesser), isn't reflecting well on him, nor making me think I was harsh/being contrarian/underrating him in his earlier run.

[W2BTD]

Completely disagree that Bryan is better in WWE. Daniel Bryan is a dumbed down, sanitized, "lazy" version of Bryan Danielson. I put lazy in quotes, because I'm not saying he doesn't work hard in WWE, he most definitely does, but alot his matches are the super structured WWE style where anybody posting in this thread can call the spots before they happen. Very little variety, very little deviation from the formula. He's so good that he overcomes it, but creatively his stuff in WWE doesnt sniff what he was doing in ROH, particularly around 2006.

 

He does what hes asked to do and does it very well, but I have no doubt he'd tell you privately he was doing better stuff from an artistic standpoint pre-WWE.

 

And don't get me started on his character work, which while brilliantly handled on his part, is a total hiderance on having the kinds of matches he's best at.

 

All of that said, probably a lock for my top ten. Maybe higher. He overcomes a style that annoys me, a giimick that annoys me, and a look that annoys me, and is still one of the best around.

[Eduardo]

I'm a big fan of Danielson's work from that 2006 period, but while yes it's different stylistically, I don't see how it was less predictable than his WWE work. Let's not forget fans chanting "same old shit!" at Danielson in 2006, during his title run. Yeah the fans were being pretty annoying, but you could call what he was going to do next during that period (not that I hold this against him). That's why the 2007 run felt fresh, since he tweaked his work, and changed up what he was doing.

[W2BTD]

I'm a big fan of Danielson's work from that 2006 period, but while yes it's different stylistically, I don't see how it was less predictable than his WWE work. Let's not forget fans chanting "same old shit!" at Danielson in 2006, during his title run. Yeah the fans were being pretty annoying, but you could call what he was going to do next during that period (not that I hold this against him). That's why the 2007 run felt fresh, since he tweaked his work, and changed up what he was doing.

 

Those were also playful chants while he was doing a subtle heel gimmick and being repetitive by design.

[Matt D]

I think most indy guys are hugely helped by going through the WWE system, but I'll listen seriously to the idea that Bryan is the exception.

[anarchistxx]

Let's not forget fans chanting "same old shit!" at Danielson in 2006

 

This wasn't a serious thing - it was Danielson as heel playing up to a stereotype and playing with the crowd, and them loving it. The crowd were just playing their role as part of the gimmick and feeling like they were involved in the product.

[Graham Crackers]

The positive thing about Bryan in WWE as opposed to Bryan on the indies is that it limits what his opponents can do.

 

I loved Bryan on the indies and I think that we got to see a lot of great things from him on the indies that we will probably never see him do in WWE, especially during that 2007 run which may be the best single year of his career. That being said, there are times where he probably could have reined in his opponents a bit more. He worked long matches with guys who were exposed in long matches, worked even with guys he shouldn't have, or allowed his opponents to engage in some of the masturbatory stuff that gives independent wrestling a bad name.

[Childs]

My only real criticism of his '06 is that he went long for the sake of going long a bit too often. But the crowd interaction stuff was a big part of his title reign, even if it was too wink wink for people who prefer a classic heel. Gabe tried to have him go more overtly heel by betraying ROH at Cage of Death. But it really didn't change the dynamic, and I'm not sure it needed to. Danielson had a special relationship with the ROH fan base.

[Tim Cooke]

A match I haven't seen mentioned that I absolutely love is his match against Low Ki in ECWA with Ricky Steamboat as the special ref. I enjoyed the way it was worked & its my favourite match for Danielson until his WWE run.

 

Super under rated. If they didn't have their ROH match in March 2002, this would be remembered a lot more. I don't even necessarily think the ROH match is better - it's just that more people have seen it and both guys were overall better 9 months later. May try to upload this tonight for more people to see.

[Tim Cooke]

My only real criticism of his '06 is that he went long for the sake of going long a bit too often. But the crowd interaction stuff was a big part of his title reign, even if it was too wink wink for people who prefer a classic heel. Gabe tried to have him go more overtly heel by betraying ROH at Cage of Death. But it really didn't change the dynamic, and I'm not sure it needed to. Danielson had a special relationship with the ROH fan base.

 

That's the big 2000 US Indy problem - going 10-20 minutes too long for almost every match depending on the matches length.

[Grimmas]

This is for Daniel Bryan, the other crowd chanting argument has been moved to the pro wrestling section.

[Venegas]

 

A match I haven't seen mentioned that I absolutely love is his match against Low Ki in ECWA with Ricky Steamboat as the special ref. I enjoyed the way it was worked & its my favourite match for Danielson until his WWE run.

 

Super under rated. If they didn't have their ROH match in March 2002, this would be remembered a lot more. I don't even necessarily think the ROH match is better - it's just that more people have seen it and both guys were overall better 9 months later. May try to upload this tonight for more people to see.

OMG PLEASE!!!! I've been looking for that match for so long, it would be much appreciated.

[Jmare007]

I second that thought. Would love to watch that match. The Round Robin Challenge match with Low Ki is one of my favorite ROH matches ever, if their submission match is on that level then holy shit.

[Matt D]

I'm actually severely holding Bryan's 2015 against him at this point.

[Jimmy Redman]

Because he isn't working in a way that would prolong his shelf life as a wrestler? Or because you don't like the matches? (Only asking because this seems to be a follow up to your post in his other thread about Austin's comment)

[Matt D]

Because he's working stupid when he's theoretically good enough not to. Understanding pro wrestling well enough to adapt is a thing for me.

[pol]

I don't think Bryan's 2015 showcases an inability to adapt so much as a lack of desire to, though. Penalizing him for that is tantamount to penalizing him for poor life decisions, imo.

[BillThompson]

I don't think Bryan's 2015 showcases an inability to adapt so much as a lack of desire to, though. Penalizing him for that is tantamount to penalizing him for poor life decisions, imo.

 

If the matches are still great I personally won't care. It's his body and it's his decision to do with it what he pleases. However, I too am high on inability to adapt, and if Bryan is delivering lesser work because of an unwillingness to adapt, for any reason, then that is definitely something that should be held against him.

[Matt D]

 

I don't think Bryan's 2015 showcases an inability to adapt so much as a lack of desire to, though. Penalizing him for that is tantamount to penalizing him for poor life decisions, imo.

 

If the matches are still great I personally won't care. It's his body and it's his decision to do with it what he pleases. However, I too am high on inability to adapt, and if Bryan is delivering lesser work because of an unwillingness to adapt, for any reason, then that is definitely something that should be held against him.

 

 

He had a terrible match with Barrett at Extreme Rules. I'd mark it a 0.*

 

*This may be a joke.

[Steenalized]

He completely changed his style and look for that match, playing an entirely new character. Doesn't seem like a lack of adaptability to me.

[pol]

 

I don't think Bryan's 2015 showcases an inability to adapt so much as a lack of desire to, though. Penalizing him for that is tantamount to penalizing him for poor life decisions, imo.

 

If the matches are still great I personally won't care. It's his body and it's his decision to do with it what he pleases. However, I too am high on inability to adapt, and if Bryan is delivering lesser work because of an unwillingness to adapt, for any reason, then that is definitely something that should be held against him.

 

 

I agree with that. I should have mentioned in my last post that I don't think the quality of his work has dropped.

[InYourCase]

Because he's working stupid when he's theoretically good enough not to. Understanding pro wrestling well enough to adapt is a thing for me.

I don't think he's adapted poorly with his injury at all. He still has to get over and as much as I like some of his grappling work, that's not going to get over with the WWE audience. Plus, I think Bryan's a smart enough guy to know what style he can work and what style he can't. The only reason he's out of action currently is because of a concussion, which I believe was at the fault of Sheamus.

 

I actually came to the thread to bring up how Bryan is able to adapt so well. Currently going through his best-of from wXw and it's amazing how he adapts in front of every crowd. I'm probably not as high on his early ROH stuff as most people. Something about him from 2002-2003 just never clicked with me the way it did with others. That said, since then, he's been able to do so many different and great things with his in-ring style and his character. He's an elite brawler (Morishima and Sheamus matches), obviously a tremendous technical wrestler as shown during his entire ROH title run, and his later years on the indies when he adapted more of a shoot-style has been very fun to watch recently. Not to mention the fact that he got over in NOAH during a time when no gaijin were pushed or really over, for that matter, and while much of Europe is a big blank spot for me, he's been over there for what seems like a million tours and his wXw work has been tremendous thus far.

 

Bryan, now that I've been thinking about who the greatest wrestler of all-time is, comes to my mind immediately. Especially because he's worker such a variety of styles better than anyone else that I know of. I don't think you can hold the 2015 run against him. His match quality was still high when he was healthy and I don't doubt that *if* he returns, his matches will continue to be great.

[stomperspc]

I think it’s a slippery slope.

 

Misawa, Kobashi, Austin, Mysterio, Eddie Guerrero, Benoit and plenty of others could have extended their careers had they adjusted their physical ring style at some point. Do all of those guys get penalized? Do some get more penalized than others? What’s the criteria?

 

As others have said, I am also not sure why it would matter if the quality of the work is still high. We are judging how good wrestlers were the ring by examining their bodies of work. If the work is good, it is good. When we start getting into intent and hypotheticals, an already subjective exercise becomes really subjective and muddy. I’d rather stick to the output and not get into whether a certain wrestler could have theoretically been better off by doing something differently.

 

If Bryan has to retire now, there is definitely a discussion about whether his early retirement would hurt his overall resume (since he wouldn’t have the longevity that others have) but that feels like a different topic.

[Dylan Waco]

I think Matts point is about the unwillingness/inability of Bryan to adapt to reflect his physical condition. To Matt this indicates a sort of narrowness of a workers range. I don't think it has anything to do with hypotheticals.