[SPLIT TOPIC] Today's wrestling vs wrestling from the past (From Lawler GWE thread)

[W2BTD]

Recommend me some matches and I'll watch and review them. That's a promise.

 

btw, I'm getting to this. Haven't had time. Not blowing you off.

[concrete1992]

 

 

Yea well, the jerk store called and they're running out of you.

YES!!! Top level banter.

[dawho5]

It's coming across to me as rovert trying to find reasons not to do the project or back up his opinions. My question is this. Until you've reviewed matches for and started a bunch of threads for more modern guys that you like, how do you know? I've reviewed more than 3 Tanahashi matches that I know of during the 2000s and I know there are more than 3 in his microscope thread. I'm fairly certain that you could find 3 match reviews for every major NJPW guy just based on this year's G1. Which by the way got more than it's share of support around here if I'm not completely wrong.

 

Basically what I'm saying is that you should review some matches if need be and nominate people who you think deserve a look. My feeling is that people will at least go back a few years and youtube things just to see if there is something there worth seeing. Yes, there will probably be negative responses. I get down on Kobashi a lot and read how that goes in his nomination thread. And I will absolutely look at some things again when I go through 90s AJPW again. You can't take that as "nobody here is giving my ideas a chance" though. If a few are dismissive of your views and direct about it, too bad for them. They don't make your experience here (or they don't have to), that's up to you.

[rovert]

But some unfriendly replies are gonna keep guys from sending a ballot??? I guess sometimes people take the internet too seriously...

I am not the one hounding people across forums here posting bizarre anti-Irish slurs like Matt D was and dismissing my opinion just because Fergal and myself share the same nationality.

 

Also it isnt the unfriendliness necessarily it is the undercurrent of close mindedness to modern indie Wrestling (and Japanese Wrestling.)

 

I hope the Greatest Ever is an actual attempt at not doing a "PWO representative" poll and not something that is widely considered a farce like the WKO list was/is. Maybe I should take a serious second look at the Greatest Ever subforum and listen to project podcast. But given some of the players involved and some of the early nominees I have justifiable reservations.

[pol]

I do think that if the intention of the GOAT project is to poll from a true cross section of smart wrestling fans then that's a pretty naive goal when the discussion is hosted on this site. Yeah you can vote without signing up but how many people will? I would be surprised if the final results are not very skewed towards the PWO consensus (and no, the site isn't a monolithic entity, but there are trends).

[NintendoLogic]

If I'm remembering correctly: you said that Devitt was well respected but when you were asked to post your opinion of Devitt or write something about matches of his you liked you acted as if you were being attacked.

 

You're not remembering correctly. rzombie1988 said that European fans only liked Devitt because he was Irish and funny on Twitter. rovert replied that Devitt is well respected within the industry. This led to goodhelmet jumping down his throat and demanding to know what he liked about him even though he (rovert) never said that he personally was a fan.

[BillThompson]

I'd say those reservations are unfounded. I've already nominated Matt Hardy, Timothy Thatcher, and the Hardy Boyz. I'll be voting for Kurt Angle and Matt Hardy fairly high on my lists, etc. There are a lot of differing opinions being delivered in the nominations and who people say they will be voting for.

[rovert]

Well I just did some searches for "WKO wrestling forum top 100" on Google and seeing the various reactions to the list on different forums reminded me what awful places the vast majority of them are.

 

Look at the quality of discussion here and here, for example.

 

Now think about what PWO is like in general.

I wouldn't argue those places are havens for great Wrestling discussion. Which begs the question why people from WKO would post on similar forums across the internet to get a reaction? I never got the sense they were soliciting members or out to create productive discussion on the particular forum they were posting on.

 

I am glad places like Voices of Wrestling don't do that. They are far more positive, inclusive and interactive. Just look at VOW's Wrestling Observer Hall of Fame coverage.

[JerryvonKramer]

It's coming across to me as rovert trying to find reasons not to do the project or back up his opinions. My question is this. Until you've reviewed matches for and started a bunch of threads for more modern guys that you like, how do you know? I've reviewed more than 3 Tanahashi matches that I know of during the 2000s and I know there are more than 3 in his microscope thread. I'm fairly certain that you could find 3 match reviews for every major NJPW guy just based on this year's G1. Which by the way got more than it's share of support around here if I'm not completely wrong.

 

Basically what I'm saying is that you should review some matches if need be and nominate people who you think deserve a look. My feeling is that people will at least go back a few years and youtube things just to see if there is something there worth seeing. Yes, there will probably be negative responses. I get down on Kobashi a lot and read how that goes in his nomination thread. And I will absolutely look at some things again when I go through 90s AJPW again. You can't take that as "nobody here is giving my ideas a chance" though. If a few are dismissive of your views and direct about it, too bad for them. They don't make your experience here (or they don't have to), that's up to you.

I agree.

 

Those 70s guys I'm looking at (e.g Dory Jr, Brisco, Race) arguably have a bigger up hill battle because there are lots of people who just don't give a shit about the 70s. And some posters (i.e. Will) have shown open hostility to Dory. I'm not really letting it put me off. The Dory thread has had a grand total of 7 replies. I'm just carrying on, not sulking off.

 

I think the 00s and 10s people will have an easier time of it than the 70s people -- the period is closer, more footage is available, it's perceived as being less "boring", the guys will come to mind more readily for people who have been watching. There are a lot of natural advantages for the modern wrestlers over their 70s counterparts in a vote like this.

[BillThompson]

They probably post at those places to get the word out, drive viewership of something they are proud of. I don't pimp my blog all that much, but I like to think I'm doing good work with my reviews so I make sure it's in my sig at any wrestling forum I may post at from time to time.

[rovert]

They probably post at those places to get the word out, drive viewership of something they are proud of. I don't pimp my blog all that much, but I like to think I'm doing good work with my reviews so I make sure it's in my sig at any wrestling forum I may post at from time to time.

You are a fair man for giving them the benefit of the doubt but in the link that Jerry posted for example:

http://forums.thesmartmarks.com/index.php?showtopic=94292

 

The WrestlingKo forum wasn't linked to.

 

You also had threads like this there:

http://z11.invisionfree.com/wrestling_ko/ar/t4271.htm

 

WKO had some plus points like it was a place to discuss Lucha for English speakers and offshoots so to speak like the Segunda Caida blog and podcast but ultimately they are/were really childish, close minded and insecure people. While Alan and Rob are extremely well like by the Wrestling Community and have really gone on to do things.

[Venegas]

Not sure why some people seem to think that there's some sort of anti-indie agenda on PWO/WKO. All anyone really does is point out the obvious fundamental flaws in a lot of the guys who work the super indies.

[rovert]

Not sure why some people seem to think that there's some sort of anti-indie agenda on PWO/WKO.

Feel free to disagree but don't play into the close mindedness point by making it sound like I am talking to a wall. I felt I was being redundant in the points I was making and you come out with this statement.

 

All anyone really does is point out the obvious fundamental flaws in a lot of the guys who work the super indies.

Cringe.

[Dylan Waco]

 

Excluding all of that, why claim DVDVR as not being open minded while saying that the Jacobs pick is bizarre and nonsense. Isn't that more close minded than the other indy fans from the time frame including someone like Joe who flat out said he wasn't seeking a brawl in the middle of an ROH show.

Not close minded I have watched a lot of Jimmy's work over the years and most likely more of his recent work than anyone here.

 

Will you be submitting a ballot/nominating people rovert or are you just here to cry about perceived injustice toward unnamed favorites?

It isn't perceived though it is an actuality.

 

The Devitt experience along with other stuff leads me to believe that it would be a pretty pointless exercise due to the biases and close mindedness of some prominent posters. Not interested in another hounding due to be posting a well heeled or largely held opinion outside of the general PWO bubble either.

 

 

You wouldn't even give an actual opinion on what you thought of Devitt as I recall, so I haven't the foggiest notion if he's a favorite of yours or not. You generally cower in fear at the idea of expressing an actual opinion on anything, so it's hard to imagine what opinions you would feel are worth presenting in any public forum, here or otherwise

[Grimmas]

I wouldn't argue those places are havens for great Wrestling discussion. Which begs the question why people from WKO would post on similar forums across the internet to get a reaction? I never got the sense they were soliciting members or out to create productive discussion on the particular forum they were posting on.

 

I am glad places like Voices of Wrestling don't do that. They are far more positive, inclusive and interactive. Just look at VOW's Wrestling Observer Hall of Fame coverage.

 

There hall of fame coverage I agree with, their podcast? Seriously?

 

I love the show and listen to it the moment I see it has arrived. However, every podcast Joe calls everyone who disagrees with him either a liar or an idiot. That is the furthest thing from positive and inclusive that I can think of.

[rovert]

You wouldn't even give an actual opinion on what you thought of Devitt as I recall, so I haven't the foggiest notion if he's a favorite of yours or not. You generally cower in fear at the idea of expressing an actual opinion on anything, so it's hard to imagine what opinions you would feel are worth presenting in any public forum, here or otherwise

I give my opinions all the time across internet other people call me over opinionated and a know it all. As Nintenologic says Will jumped down by throat. I saw the same thing happen before and I decided it wasn't worth time. Something that proved correct as Will made a separate thread goading me into replying. I wasn't cowering in fear. Although the idea he was jumping down my throat and him being a mod is intimidating. As I like it here and don't want to be banned from here I decided to back off. Not mention Matt D being Matt D and rzombies odd homophobic language adding a whole bunch of weirdness to the thread.

 

I love the show and listen to it the moment I see it has arrived. However, every podcast Joe calls everyone who disagrees with him either a liar or an idiot. That is the furthest thing from positive and inclusive that I can think of.

I take your point but I was primarily talking about when they advertise or link to their site.

[Dylan Waco]

Since you enjoy giving your opinions (allegedly), why aren't you nominating people for GWE project?

[rovert]

Since you enjoy giving your opinions (allegedly), why aren't you nominating people for GWE project?

For reasons already stated at length and like I said I will reconsider.

[Childs]

There are already 250 or so nominees. How could they possibly all represent the consensus of some hive mind?

 

I'd love it if there was more discussion of current indie wrestling on the site. It would give me ideas about what to seek out. Bill's enthusiasm toward Thatcher, for example, has him on my list of workers to investigate. I have fallen out of touch with the indie scene over the last five years as my favorites have moved to WWE and life obligations have piled up. But I'm always interested in great wrestling, no matter where it comes from. I think most of the regular posters here are as well, even if there's some skepticism when something like this year's G-1 gets the "best thing ever" hype.

[W2BTD]

Who am I calling a liar & an idiot on every show? Genuine question. I am outspoken and probably not for everyone, but I believe I am fair.

 

I called Pat Buck a liar. Privately he admitted he was lying. And they lied again last weekend, claiming a rise in attendance despite less seats available in the same building. Neat trick if they pulled that off.

 

I sort of called Gabe Sapolsky a liar, but not really, as I framed it more as he probably had a bad memory, as I don't think he was purposely lying.

 

Who else? If I called someone else a liar, its probably because they lied. Like Leslie when he deleted his "bitch move" tweet and then denied saying it.

 

I probably throw around the term "idiot", but that's my style and people who listen likely understand my tone.

 

I can't think of anybody else.

[Grimmas]

If you don't like dragon gate ...

[KrisZ]

It's funny how everything has shifted in people's eyes. I can't say much for DVDVR because I don't read it much anymore other than in the lucha forum but I remember all the shit that DVDVR got 2001-04 for overrating the US indies and the fact that it supposedly shits on them now is interesting. A lot of the old guard from that era don't post there no more (or really watch wrestling in general) and there are a lot of posters who obnoxious jerks although not nearly as bad as the F4W board.

 

I freely admit I don't watch a lot of US indies any more because I don't have time to fit it in with other stuff but I still keep up with it and to compare it to the scene pre-ROH is tough because back then you didn't have a lot of overlap between workers. The Northeast guys stayed there, the Midwest guys stayed there, the West Coast guys stayed there, the Southern guys stayed there so every region had their own style. Plus you had high profile guys in all of the regions.....it was a glorious time to be a fan.

 

Another thing was we had a distributor who was so key in exposing everyone to what was going on in my dear friend Wes Hatch. Wes would get shit from everywhere and we would procure from him so he was spreading the gospel while yes you have You Tube today but it's not the same.

[W2BTD]

I don't want to turn this into the VOW thread, but I think we preface every Dragon Gate discussion with "we understand its not everyone's cup of tea..." to the point km getting tired of saying it lol.

 

I've defended the style, but I don't recall calling people idiots if they don't like it. I think we bend over backwards to say we understand why people don't.

[Coffey]

I'd love it if there was more discussion of current indie wrestling on the site. It would give me ideas about what to seek out. Bill's enthusiasm toward Thatcher, for example, has him on my list of workers to investigate. I have fallen out of touch with the indie scene over the last five years as my favorites have moved to WWE and life obligations have piled up. But I'm always interested in great wrestling, no matter where it comes from.

 

My tastes have changed a lot over the years so nowadays, I get more out of good character work than I do good in-ring work. Like in WWE, Lana & Paul Heyman interest me a lot more than anyone wrestling.

 

For Indies, I really like Silas Young in Ring of Honor. I don't think he's a great worker but he makes me pay attention whenever he comes out. I'm interested in what he's doing. Also him looking like ex-Steelers NFL head coach Bill Cowher cracks me up.

 

On the other end of the spectrum, Grado is a hilarious comedy wrestler to me. He just recently came to the United States & he reminds me a lot of Colt Cabana. Also, his entrance made me mark out:

 

 

I like Enzo Amore. Although I fear his catchphrases will get old quick in he gets called up & can only see him working as a non-wrestler. I also like Bobby Fish (ROH) & Simon Gotch (NXT) quite a bit.

 

I guess I like things that are more fun nowadays than watching wrestling like I used to where it felt like I was looking for things to be critical about. I was way too negative & pessimistic. I got the point where I felt like I hated everything & I was questioning why I still bothered. Just had a bad mentality about it all.

[KrisZ]

Don't discount NXT either in this shift as WWE now has their own version of a territory or indie however you look at it and they mix it up plucking guys from the indie scene and their own homegrown guys. I know people that watch it that quit watching indies all together.