BillThompson Posted October 20, 2014 Report Share Posted October 20, 2014 I was watching Verne Gagne versus Red Bastien from the Chicago Film Archives today and I got to thinking about match length and a match being great. I'm not the biggest great match guy, it's not something I hold as vital to my perception of a wrestler. But, I made my blog about great matches because that's what I want to write about and I feel it will help keep my blog fairly positive which is a big deal to me for reasons related to my other writing. Either way, the reason I bring up match length is because I've always had this idea that a match has to be at least over ten minutes to truly be a great match. A sub ten minute match can be really good and have great work contained within, but it lacks something from not reaching that ten minute mark. I guess I'm just looking for thoughts on match length and how it effects your take on a given match, wrestler, wrestling in general, and so on and so forth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy Redman Posted October 20, 2014 Report Share Posted October 20, 2014 I've never been a match length snob. A great match is a great match no matter how long it takes. I've seen 2/3/4 minute matches that I've loved and would have no hesitation in calling great. I think a part of this is that I've always been a fan of Divas matches and they are generally short as hell. Whether it's them or any short match, I find seeing what they can fit into a very short space of time to be impressive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted October 20, 2014 Report Share Posted October 20, 2014 All of these 30-40 minute matches i'm trying to watch for GOAT are killing me. I rarely have more than 20-25 mins at a time to watch anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted October 20, 2014 Report Share Posted October 20, 2014 20-25 mins is ideal. I don't mind a shorter match so long as it doesn't feel too short. I'm in the same boat as Matt about caring about video length times. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted October 20, 2014 Report Share Posted October 20, 2014 There's a reason why the name "Nitro match" existed and why no great match is attached to it. Between 15 and 25, depending on the workers and style involved, is ideal. You can have a great 10 minutes match, but it will still be a great 10 minutes match, if you know what I mean. Lesser than that, yeah, it will be some great action of great angle driven stuff for a few minutes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted October 20, 2014 Report Share Posted October 20, 2014 Match size matters. You can have a really big match, but if you don't know how to use it, you're not going to be able to create an exciting climax for your fans. A match that's too big for his own good could accidentally hurt someone too. But a really big match does give wrestlers locker room bragging rights sometimes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NintendoLogic Posted October 20, 2014 Report Share Posted October 20, 2014 Match size matters. You can have a really big match, but if you don't know how to use it, you're not going to be able to create an exciting climax for your fans. A match that's too big for his own good could accidentally hurt someone too. But a really big match does give wrestlers locker room bragging rights sometimes. So HHH likes really big matches because he's compensating? That explains a lot, actually. Anyway, I don't think there's any reason for a match to go longer than 30 minutes. With that said, my three favorite matches of all time are all longer than 35 minutes, and two of them are longer than 40. So who knows. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRMD Posted October 20, 2014 Report Share Posted October 20, 2014 All of these 30-40 minute matches i'm trying to watch for GOAT are killing me. I rarely have more than 20-25 mins at a time to watch anything. I'm not actually doing the GWE voting, but I'm watching a lot of the matches guys post for certain wrestlers and I will not be watching anything longer than 40 minutes unless someone considers it one of the greatest matches ever. Don't want to get caught watching a match that I think is bad and seeing there is 23 minutes left. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted October 20, 2014 Report Share Posted October 20, 2014 There's a lot of stuff from Japan from the 70s that I really do want to see, but it's going to be a long road for me to get through them all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bradhindsight Posted October 20, 2014 Report Share Posted October 20, 2014 I think the crux of Bill's question is, can a sub 10-minute match really be considered great, or is it handicapped compared to great 20-30 minute matches? This is a good question. Is there a lack of psychology or narrative due to the time constraints which holds it back? Yes, you can tell a story in any length of match, but can you tell an all-time ***** story in that short amount of time? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillThompson Posted October 20, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 20, 2014 Yeah, that's my issue. Shamrock/Owen from Fully Loaded '98 is a great example. I love that match, and though it has a flawed ending with a few more minutes it easily would have been an all-time great match. But, at just a shade over five minutes I don't think I can say more than it's a really good match with a truly great Owen performance that I love. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted October 20, 2014 Report Share Posted October 20, 2014 This reminds me of an Ozaki vs Chiggy match on a big GAEA card in 99. It lasted about 5 or 6 minutes, and Oz was smart as hell during this and made it as good as it could. Yet, I would never call it a great match, although Oz was definitely having a great performance for what it was. On the other hand, Yoshida vs Fukawa going 10 minutes in the first round of the ARS Tournament that same year (how do I even remember this stuff when I didn't watch it in more than ten years ?) was the closest thing to a legit great fucking match I've ever seen. Yeah, I would call this one legit great. But a bit too short. Damn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRMD Posted October 20, 2014 Report Share Posted October 20, 2014 I think it's hard for me to say a short match is great, because one of my favorite parts about wrestling is the escalation of the beating the guy is taking and the story they are telling. It's hard for both guys to really take a beating in 10 minutes. Now, there are tons of matches I see where I say "Man, that was great for a 8 minute match." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Sorrow Posted October 21, 2014 Report Share Posted October 21, 2014 If a match is great, than it's great. Who cares how long it is? His Girl Friday is short and awesome, and Titanic is long and it stinks. The length of a performance has nothing to do with how great it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted October 21, 2014 Report Share Posted October 21, 2014 Many wrestlers like to exaggerate the length of their matches anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted October 21, 2014 Report Share Posted October 21, 2014 Don't you know that Ric Flair at one point worked 90 minutes matches every day against Steamboat, and twice on Sunday ? And they were different matches all the time too since back in the days bla bla bla… They sold out everywhere too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Sorrow Posted October 21, 2014 Report Share Posted October 21, 2014 Don't you know that Ric Flair at one point worked 90 minutes matches every day against Steamboat, and twice on Sunday ? And they were different matches all the time too since back in the days bla bla bla They sold out everywhere too.See, to the guys working I'd imagine it's a point of pride to talk about working long matches because anyone in any profession takes pride in working hard with a challenge like length . But the question as I take it here is if a match can be great if it's short. And of course it can, if a match is fucking four minutes long but delivers everything it has to and has the people going nuts, than it's great. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted October 21, 2014 Report Share Posted October 21, 2014 I will say that something like the Lawler-Snowman match that went four minutes in 1990 challenged everything I thought I knew about great matches and good presentation. A four-minute house show main event with a double DQ finish still managed to be pretty spectacular. It's a reminder that while we can come up with general rules that are usually true, there will always be noteworthy exceptions to every rule about how pro wrestling is supposed to be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NintendoLogic Posted October 21, 2014 Report Share Posted October 21, 2014 I do think that matches generally need at least ten minutes to really get cooking. Off the top of my head, the shortest match I can think of that I would consider great is Luger/Windham vs. Arn/Tully from the first Clash, which was 9:35. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted October 21, 2014 Report Share Posted October 21, 2014 What do people generally think of the Doom-Horsemen match at Starrcade '90? That one is pretty great too, and it only went 7:19. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted October 21, 2014 Report Share Posted October 21, 2014 What do people generally think of the Doom-Horsemen match at Starrcade '90? That one is pretty great too, and it only went 7:19. That it was a great 7 minutes match. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillThompson Posted October 21, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 21, 2014 What do people generally think of the Doom-Horsemen match at Starrcade '90? That one is pretty great too, and it only went 7:19. That it was a great 7 minutes match. Is that the street fight where Windham and Arn are the Horseman? I do remember it being pretty great. I'm not writing off short matches by any measure, I get a lot out of short matches. But, there's a part of me that can't get past the idea that a five minute match is only a smidgen of what could have been presented. The short film comparison doesn't really work for me either, as with a short film you know that's what you're getting before you get it, which isn't the case with a short match. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted October 21, 2014 Report Share Posted October 21, 2014 That crazy Bock vs Larry Z match from the AWA set was pretty short. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted October 21, 2014 Report Share Posted October 21, 2014 Hashimoto/Zangiev is the greatest short match ever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WingedEagle Posted October 21, 2014 Report Share Posted October 21, 2014 What do people generally think of the Doom-Horsemen match at Starrcade '90? That one is pretty great too, and it only went 7:19. That's wild. I always think of that as about 10-12 minutes, but apparently not. Always LOVED this one. Just a blazing brawl and great enough that I'm comfortable calling it my favorite sub 10. Almost great enough that it'd force me to rethink just how long a great match must be. I always ballparked 12-15 as a prereq for great, on the idea that anything less and you're basically a sprint without the ability to build much drama or tension to a finish, which I generally think of as necessary for great. But damn was this brawl GREAT. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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