Women's wrestling, could it ever be successful in the US?

[Strand Peanut]

Anything can be succesful in America with the right smile.. and the smell of money.

 

But what's the bar here ? Trish Stratus level of success ? Moolah ?

 

As a side note, WWE has sunk considerable time, money, and effort into woman's wrestling over the last ten years. You can judge the results over what was spent, but it's there and consistent.

[Grimmas]

Anything can be succesful in America with the right smile.. and the smell of money.

The bar is headlining special events with women's matches. All Japan Women made a lot of money with women has the lead acts. UFC has head lined pay per views which did huge business with women matches.

 

If the WWE can't do that, I don't see how you can blame the women. Push them right, sign the right ones, give them time and focus and it's worth a shot.

 

Sure the WWE has tried in certain ways, but not in a real let's make money and treat women as another legit draw way.

[jushin muta liger]

Rousey, to a lot of people, made WMMA feel legit. WMMA is filled with questionable striking games and padded records. Rousey transcended WMMA and people consider her one of the best fighters in UFC. Not only one of the best WMMA fighters, but one of the best fighters in the company. There is no female wrestler currently employed by WWE that I honestly feel is better than Cena, Harper, Henry, Bryan or Cesaro. There is none that are even close. Which Diva/Knockout/whatever changes the paradigm and makes you believe that she could stand toe-to-toe with Cena and it be a good match? Women don't have any credibility in the world of pro wrestling outside of their own bubble. There have been wrinkles in time, but nothing more.

 

So what do I think would need to happen? There will need to be a company like O (a woman's network) behind a company with the lead of someone like Scott Coker with a roster consisting of Sarah Stock, Awesome Kong, Gail Kim, Cheerleader Melissa, Shantelle Malawski, etc. This company will need to have Spike TV/TNA level of commitment and the major company backing this new wrestling company must know that this will be a 10 year thing. Characters like NXT's Bayley is a must. AJ Lee is a must. The Brie Mode shit (as much as I hate it) is OVER with the women and so is Total Divas. This is what the promotion will need to tap into.

 

This promotion cannot be the WNBA to the NBA. People like to see dunks and amazing shit that never happens (and in some cases can't happen) in The WNBA. This means that this all female promotion must have cage matches, ladder matches, 20 minutes mainevents, serious workrate, etc. Every woman from top-to-bottom should be a good worker. If the company wants to hire The Lacey Von Erichs, then that is fine as all as they are kept completely out-of-the-ring and kept in a position that better suits them (ring announcer, backstage interview, manager, time keeper, etc.).

 

The promotion must be booked toward women and be progressive. Romance and mystery novels are big with women. Women love Twilight, 50 Shades of Grey, The L Word, etc. All of this should be incorporated into the promotion. Save the fart jokes and lame comedy for WWE. Toss in some relevant female personalities doing bumpers for this promotion and credible commentators (someone like Marloes Coenen and Ivory [ I am pulling at straws here- but you know what I mean] ), and this promotion would be off to a pretty strong start. But this promotion will need to truly be pioneering not only in the front, but in the back. Majority women writing staff, A female director, A female lead in merchandises, etc. Just typing all of this has gotten me excited thinking of all the possibilities of a project like this getting off the ground.

You took the words out of my mouth.

 

I've been watching a lot of All Japan Women's from the 80s since I'm debating on the Greatest Wrestler Ever Project and I saw all of the matches Loss put in the Joshi thread. With AJW, they were booked in the own seperate world and had their own following and it was treated seriously.

 

With WWE, the seeds have been planted with Total Divas but it's not enough for all of them to get over. WWE needs to have them separate in order to get them really popular but they don't have to market it just to teenage girls. Grown women have a lot of spending power too, just look at all of the commercials that are placed during those reality shows that Bravo, Vh1 and E! have. Much more money in marketing to women than marketing to the demographic that Raw has currently.

[El McKell]

Women love Twilight, 50 Shades of Grey, The L Word, etc. All of this should be incorporated into the promotion.

You know 50 Shades of Grey is a pornographic book with bondage and shit right? How do you suggest incorporating it into wrestling?

[jushin muta liger]

Linda Miles was a dominatrix with the Bashams in WWE. It didn't work but it would be interesting if somebody tried that again.

[concrete1992]

Lets play the "Am I the only one?" game...

 

Am I the only one that thinks that Charlotte has the best chance of the current talent to be a future headliner IF WWE were to ever go that route? Oh, and that it would work of course. She is damn good and looks like an athlete. Which I would think would be less necessary if the women's scene was established in a positive way at all. She doesn't look like an AJ is very tiny. She isn't a Nikki Bella type body either. At 5'10" and the skill level she has, she would be my pick to be a potential female star.

I also want to fully admit I don't "get" most women's wrestling. I watch most hyped matches feeling rather empty and I don't why. There are some few and far between ones that get me pumped but someone like a Sasha Banks I just don't get. Someone like a Lufisto feels like a sorta Davey Richards type. Charlotte though...always feel like I was given the best wrestling effort. She doesn't wrestle wimpy and move-to-move doesn't feel slow and clunky which is probably my most often problem.

[fakeplastictrees]

 

Women love Twilight, 50 Shades of Grey, The L Word, etc. All of this should be incorporated into the promotion.

You know 50 Shades of Grey is a pornographic book with bondage and shit right? How do you suggest incorporating it into wrestling?

 

 

50 Shades IIRC is about some meek girl and her handsome lover who is all into kinky shit. How can we turn that into something with pro wrestling? Simple really. Look at the TNA Sam Shaw/Christy Hemme stuff, but instead of Christy getting all creeped out- she is into and wants to explore more. This is where good writing and subtlety comes into play. It's all about the promos, the fashion, the non-descriptive markings that appear on the male and female's bodies (is that a hicky? etc.). Vingettes done in the style of boudoir photography, etc. It can be done in interesting visual ways that do not flat out spell it out for you. Kind of like the Goldust/Marlena duo from the mid 90's. There are other things that can be added that would actually enhance the match such as the female loving when the man gets violent and vice versa. Arm locks? Dead pan reaction. Powerbomb through a table? Smiles all around.

 

 

 

 

Lets play the "Am I the only one?" game...

 

Am I the only one that thinks that Charlotte has the best chance of the current talent to be a future headliner IF WWE were to ever go that route? Oh, and that it would work of course. She is damn good and looks like an athlete. Which I would think would be less necessary if the women's scene was established in a positive way at all. She doesn't look like an AJ is very tiny. She isn't a Nikki Bella type body either. At 5'10" and the skill level she has, she would be my pick to be a potential female star.

I also want to fully admit I don't "get" most women's wrestling. I watch most hyped matches feeling rather empty and I don't why. There are some few and far between ones that get me pumped but someone like a Sasha Banks I just don't get. Someone like a Lufisto feels like a sorta Davey Richards type. Charlotte though...always feel like I was given the best wrestling effort. She doesn't wrestle wimpy and move-to-move doesn't feel slow and clunky which is probably my most often problem.

 

What you are describing is a person who isn't playing pro wrestling. A person who you believe is legit. Charlotte physically (and thus far in the ring) is something a division should be built around. When I look at AJ I see a girl who can't kick any guy's ass on the roster and in a shoot fight its hard for me to believe she could beat up the majority of the Divas. Charlotte isn't too cartoony and while she is trying too hard in some aspects of her game, she isn't trying TOO HARD ala AJ Lee and her 'Too Cool For School' shooty promos. Charlotte cosplays Ric Flair at times but I don't feel she is trying to be Flair and to a greater extent I don't feel she is trying to be anyone.

 

I feel I can write paragraphs on women's pro wrestling in the U.S. At the end of the day though, money talks. When Total Divas starts beating Raw and/or Smackdown in ratings and 2-3 of the Divas are within the top ten merch sellers within the company- THEN things will change because that means there is a demand. Going back to the steak analogy. You want steak? Sure. No problem. If it comes to you uncooked what do you do? You tell the waiter to take it back. Same thing with women's wrestling. You want it and are getting a product uncooked? Make your voice heard. The snarky "We Want Wrestling!" chants and the like can be very damning to the uncooked product and force WWE to take that shit back and bring it back sizzling. As far as years from now? Again, it would have to be a serious serious serious concentrated effort that forces women's pro wrestling into the zeitgeist. A true READY OR NOT approach that is backed by tons of social research, current bias, etc. A push like that would get women's pro wrestling further along in America then it has ever been, but it will hit a road block....women.

 

 

Women like to pretend they are smarter then men and like to pass themselves off as more sophisticated in public. Its going to be an up-hill battle. Though wrestling is now part of geek chic and the number of women comic readers and video game players are steadily increasing (some articles I've read state that the number of women and men comic readers are closer than we thought), perhaps it will gain some steam. Again, there are just so many levels here. It's a loaded question in my book.

[BillThompson]

But what about now? In 21st century America is there another who you can honestly say could give us a WM main event without tons of gimmicks involved? I'm talk about a straight up 20 minute match that works on all levels and that people would walk away from saying - "Damn I am glad I stuck around after HHH/Sting, Brock/Reigns, and Taker's retirement match to see that main event!"? I can't think of anyone.

 

In terms of talent there are a lot of women who I believe could do that right now. But talent and booking are different. I firmly believe that you put Sasha Banks and LuFisto in the ring and they can deliver a great match as the main event of any show because of how talented they are. However, if they don't have the booking behind them this won't happen, and that's the same that could be said for any wrestling really.

[bradhindsight]

I think NXT is doing great things around conditioning the fans to enjoy women's matches. All their specials have had the women's title co-advertised with the main event. I could certainly see a women's title match being a top 4 mania match in future years. The groundwork is there, as well as the new eyes on the product from Total Divas.

[Grimmas]

I think NXT is doing great things around conditioning the fans to enjoy women's matches. All their specials have had the women's title co-advertised with the main event. I could certainly see a women's title match being a top 4 mania match in future years. The groundwork is there, as well as the new eyes on the product from Total Divas.

What we are waiting for is a show like Night of Champions or No Way Out being headlined by a women's match.

[topropepodcast]

I think there's a decent chance of a NXT Takeover headlined by a Women's Title match in 2015.

[Strand Peanut]

 

 

I think NXT is doing great things around conditioning the fans to enjoy women's matches. All their specials have had the women's title co-advertised with the main event. I could certainly see a women's title match being a top 4 mania match in future years. The groundwork is there, as well as the new eyes on the product from Total Divas.

What we are waiting for is a show like Night of Champions or No Way Out being headlined by a women's match.

Anyone who's hoping for that is gonna be waiting a while, and understandably so. Has that ever happened in the history of pro wrestling ? Two women headlining a men's (or even inter-gender) promotion ?

 

Tho, granted, nothing moves the needle for wrestling in the US currently. I doubt putting two women on top, for the sake of it, would change that.

 

And the ghost of Joshi haunting this thread is scaring me..

[Grimmas]

 

 

I think NXT is doing great things around conditioning the fans to enjoy women's matches. All their specials have had the women's title co-advertised with the main event. I could certainly see a women's title match being a top 4 mania match in future years. The groundwork is there, as well as the new eyes on the product from Total Divas.

What we are waiting for is a show like Night of Champions or No Way Out being headlined by a women's match.

Anyone who's hoping for that is gonna be waiting a while, and understandably so. Has that ever happened in the history of pro wrestling ? Two women headlining a men's (or even inter-gender) promotion ?

 

Tho, granted, nothing moves the needle for wrestling in the US currently. I doubt putting two women on top, for the sake of it, would change that.

 

And the ghost of Joshi haunting this thread is scaring me..

 

UFC has done it. There was a Tokyo Dome show headlined by women that had men on it.

 

In the Olympics what is the main event of figure-skating? It's not the men's campaign, that is for sure.

 

I don't think you should put women on top for the sake of it, but I think you could strap a rocket to someone like Charlotte and make her as big as a star as Seth Rollins currently is.

[Strand Peanut]

I'll answer my own question.. Richter/Moolah on MTV "The Brawl To End It All." Thought it was on top, but had to check. The Lauper angle was built to lead to this match.

 

UFC is not pro wrestling. Not sure which Tokyo Dome card you are referencing, but we're talking about the USA. I don't think the context and culture that lead to the large draw AJW cards should be ignored.. or rather the thought that somehow pro wrestling success in Japan can be re-created in the USA.

 

AJW started in the 60's and closed doors in the early 2000's. Nothing even close to that in the history of the USA. Even in the intial TV period. Burke and Wolfe's central office during the 50's might enter the conversation. But they were not a promotion, just a booking office. And I think they mostly worked with Al Haft's promotion.

 

Women's pro wrestling has a huge up hill climb in the USA.

 

 

 

Sure, people don't enjoy how WWE pushes their female wrestlers, or their men either! That's a flaw that has little do with gender.

[Grimmas]

I'll answer my own question.. Richter/Moolah on MTV "The Brawl To End It All." Thought it was on top, but had to check. The Lauper angle was built to lead to this match.

 

UFC is not pro wrestling. Not sure which Tokyo Dome card you are referencing, but we're talking about the USA. I don't think the context and culture that lead to the large draw AJW cards should be ignored.. or rather the thought that somehow pro wrestling success in Japan can be re-created in the USA.

 

AJW started in the 60's and closed doors in the early 2000's. Nothing even close to that in the history of the USA. Even in the intial TV period. Burke and Wolfe's central office during the 50's might enter the conversation. But they were not a promotion, just a booking office. And I think they mostly worked with Al Haft's promotion.

 

Women's pro wrestling has a huge up hill climb in the USA.

 

 

 

Sure, people don't enjoy how WWE pushes their female wrestlers, or their men either! That's a flaw that has little do with gender.

So, what are you saying? They should never try to make a women a star at the level of the top men, because they haven't in the past?

[Tim Evans]

So should they put the women against the top men in the company? Like Charlotte vs Seth Rollins or Dolph Ziggler? That's the only way I see them main eventing a ppv.

[Matt D]

I think realistic asskicker is the opposite that they should be going for. They need to try to tap into the Monster High money instead. Bailey and Sasha and Tweens. Hunger Games AJ (collect all 8).

[Strand Peanut]

 

 

I'll answer my own question.. Richter/Moolah on MTV "The Brawl To End It All." Thought it was on top, but had to check. The Lauper angle was built to lead to this match.

 

UFC is not pro wrestling. Not sure which Tokyo Dome card you are referencing, but we're talking about the USA. I don't think the context and culture that lead to the large draw AJW cards should be ignored.. or rather the thought that somehow pro wrestling success in Japan can be re-created in the USA.

 

AJW started in the 60's and closed doors in the early 2000's. Nothing even close to that in the history of the USA. Even in the intial TV period. Burke and Wolfe's central office during the 50's might enter the conversation. But they were not a promotion, just a booking office. And I think they mostly worked with Al Haft's promotion.

 

Women's pro wrestling has a huge up hill climb in the USA.

 

 

 

Sure, people don't enjoy how WWE pushes their female wrestlers, or their men either! That's a flaw that has little do with gender.

So, what are you saying? They should never try to make a women a star at the level of the top men, because they haven't in the past?

No, I'm saying America can be sold anything. But the current conditions make it hard for pro wrestling to be succesful in the USA now. Which makes it even tougher for women in pro wrestling. It's tougher for women, because women's wrestling has traditionally not been promoted well, and often considered an after thought. AJW is not a comparable to the current wrestling landscape in the USA.

 

Successful? Sure could be, can be..

 

But talk like, "If they just pushed X, or promoted X better.." is not a gender related issue to me.

 

I think it's just systematic of having one top promotion for so long. Many wrestling fans feel under served. How else could WWE annoy so many over so very many things!

[Alucard]

When was the LAST woman's match where you said "OH SHIT! I can't wait to see that!"?

 

Gail vs Taryn in TNA for me as far as really looking forward to it, though Charlotte/Natalya and Charlotte/Sasha from the NXT specials had me feeling similarly afterwards