jdw Posted July 6, 2015 Report Share Posted July 6, 2015 A lot of this comes back to skills that are easily appreciated (the ability to hang 40 or make sensational passes) vs. more subtle stuff (anchoring a great team defense). It's the old Bill James argument: a guy who hits 40 home runs will often get more attention than a guy who does everything well but leads the league in nothing. Duncan was the ultimate guy who did everything well, and the amazing thing is he's still 80 percent of that for 28 minutes a game. I don't know who the (up through the 1980s*) baseball Jamesian equiv of Duncan would be. Probably a cross between Joe Morgan and Mike Schmidt. Morgan in the sense of someone who didn't lead the league in things that people paid a ton of attention to at the time, and someone who'd been the best player in the league for probably three seasons (1972-74) before they got around to giving a pair (1975-76) when it became pretty obvious. A lot of the greatness of Morgan became more obvious in the era of analytics. Schmidt in the sense of him also being an analytics guy. He did have the HR titles that grabbed attention, but people at the time didn't get how historically great he was due to the BA. Except that relative to his sport, Tim's career is better than both. His peak wasn't as good as Little Joe's. It's probably not terribly far removed from Schmidts at Mike's peak... might be pretty spot on, though. But in terms of careers, he tops both... and it's not like those two had short careers. It's hard to come up with a similar baseball player to Tim. * up through the 80s since it's the time when Bill was coming up with these concepts and he wrote the original Historical Abstract Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elliott Posted July 7, 2015 Report Share Posted July 7, 2015 The Sacramento Kings are TNA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted July 7, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 7, 2015 No... that has to go to the Clippers. Every time you think they have a new lease on life, they fuck it up. As last year proved, sometimes the shit taking place in the office is more important than the product on the floor. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if they took Elgin Baylor out of retirement and suited him up the way TNA brought back Jeff Jarrett. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WingedEagle Posted July 7, 2015 Report Share Posted July 7, 2015 Clips strike me more like WCW because they had higher highs than TNA. Now how about Chris Paul? Dude basically came into the league anointed the point god and lived up to that billing. Minus anything more than a second round appearance. Made his way to LA with Blake & Deandre...to the second round. Now it sounds like at worst he was a big reason Deandre bolted for Dallas and at best simply not a factor in keeping him in town. LAC will clearly take a step back this year with the question being whether its to the 7-8 range or if they slip to the lottery in a stacked west. Either way I'd sell any remaining CP3 stock. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted July 7, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 7, 2015 Higher highs? They were literally the worst franchise in sports for the majority of their existence. Even when they hit it right the last couple of years on the court, they didn't win anything, have never won a championship, and had the soap opera play out with Sterling. If TNA is the worst wrestling promotion of all time then the Clippers are TNA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WingedEagle Posted July 7, 2015 Report Share Posted July 7, 2015 Not arguing the history, but they had the Cassell/Brand squad that came close to knocking off the Nash Suns and then the last few years of CP3/Blake/Deandre. That'd be TNA moving to Monday nights and competing with WWE, not running for the hills as fast as possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted July 7, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 7, 2015 I liken any Clippers success to like 2005 TNA when they were having good PPVs and promoting Joe vs. Angle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WingedEagle Posted July 7, 2015 Report Share Posted July 7, 2015 Harsh! But fair. Post-Sterling should be like a clean break as though TNA were sold by the Carters to to Spike, but that ain't happening in this lifetime Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted July 7, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 7, 2015 It's scary that Dixie Carter is the Donald Sterling of wrestling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WingedEagle Posted July 7, 2015 Report Share Posted July 7, 2015 Dude the story writes itself (minus the slum lord chapter). Her V Stiviano is Vince Russo!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted July 7, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 7, 2015 That is awesome!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elliott Posted July 8, 2015 Report Share Posted July 8, 2015 When I read Will's initial post about Clippers TNA, my immediate thought was what WingedEagle said about Clips being WCW. Just an ass-backward run promotion that stumbled into a couple of years of big success and then it all fell apart because of stupidity. But I love Vince Russo as V Stiviano so I'm happy with that comp. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted July 8, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 8, 2015 They can't be WCW because even when WCW was horribly managed, they still had the workrate. Clippers success relative to the age of the franchise is percentage points closer to TNA having worthy matches. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elliott Posted July 9, 2015 Report Share Posted July 9, 2015 From the Flair thread... goodhelmet, on 07 Jul 2015 - 12:36 PM, said: If nothing else, what you could say is that Flair's detractors and Flair's supporters are more vocal than for any other wrestler. Flair is an important guy, no doubt. jdw said Exactly. As an analogy, no one spends this much time on the greatness / non-greatness of Cowens, Ewing, Robinson, or Reed. Even at the level of Moses or Hakeem, people don't spend this much time. Wilt and Shaq? People, both pro and con, work their asses off trying to figure out where they rank. I think Wilt and Shaq get talked about so much because they are clearly all time great top 15 players, and yet still disappointing considering their size and athletic ability. If they lived up to their potential and with their physical advantages, those guys SHOULD be 1&2 in some order. David Robinson doesn't get talked about much because he was in some ways a disappointment because of his size and athleticism but he was such an overwhelmingly good human that no one wants to talk negatively about him and his playing career just doesn't match up with Shaq/Wilt/Hakeem/Moses. Ewing was a big disappointment for sure. But he doesn't have the level of success of Wilt/Shaq and isn't a top 10 candidate like those 2. Very few people from my generation know jack shit about Reed except for the injury. They know ever less about Cowens. Cowens is hurt because he peaked in the post Russell pre Magic/Larry era that is just a dead zone of knowledge for people who didn't live through it or take the time to research it. Hakeem is in the Shaq range for me. Top 15ish guy. i usually rank them side by side with Hakeem above him. I wonder how many people blow off Hakeem because he won his titles when Jordan was playing baseball. Moses is in the Hakeem/Shaq range. He's not a GOAT candidate like some people pimp Wilt and people thought Shaq was gonna be but he's solidly on that next level. People go on and on about Shaq/Wilt because they had incredible careers while still being disappointments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WingedEagle Posted July 9, 2015 Report Share Posted July 9, 2015 So this Deandre Jordan story has entered a whole new realm. Some combination the Radicalz leaving WCW (factoring in the Konnans/Douglases/etc who tried but weren't welcomed), the Tod Gordon poaching ECW story and god knows what else. Pure madness. NBA 4 life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elliott Posted July 9, 2015 Report Share Posted July 9, 2015 It's like the reverse Bret Hart to WCW situation. DeAndre screwed Dirk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WingedEagle Posted July 9, 2015 Report Share Posted July 9, 2015 Yeah, not sure how I left Montreal all out. This is everything. Not as impactful as LBJ in '10 because neither team has more than 2nd round upside barring injuries, but today may have been more fun than that day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted July 9, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 9, 2015 Hah! I thouht it was like TNA getting kicked off Spike and getting resigned to Destination America. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WingedEagle Posted July 15, 2015 Report Share Posted July 15, 2015 Ty Lawson with another wellness policy violation. Should probably get out of Colorado but Nuggs can't trade him for a dime on the dollar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elliott Posted July 15, 2015 Report Share Posted July 15, 2015 I hope he ends up in San Antonio. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted July 16, 2015 Report Share Posted July 16, 2015 It's like the reverse Bret Hart to WCW situation. DeAndre screwed Dirk. Cuban screwed Cuban. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elliott Posted July 16, 2015 Report Share Posted July 16, 2015 Really Cuban screwed Dirk. Figuratively. Because literally... http://pointafter.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/dirk-nowitzki-mark-cuban-steve-nash-cowboy-hats.png Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elliott Posted November 6, 2015 Report Share Posted November 6, 2015 Pre TNA Sting is Ron Harper. Harper Burst onto the scene as a rookie in 1987 averaging 23ppg and 2.5 spg. Looked like a total stud who could long term turn into a future 10x all star. Unfortunately he got injured before he could follow up on his rookie magic. Showed flashes of brilliance on the court but couldn't really sustain it in a truly meaningful way. Carrying the Clippers to the 8th seed and losing in the first round a couple of times is probably the equivalent of Sting and Vader having great matches together in a poorly run promotion. Had the best and most memorable run of his career playing a limited, but still important role, alongside the GOAT who happened to be in the middle of a career redefining comeback. I like both of them and have fond memories of them both. But Ron Harper isn't a hall of famer and neither is Sting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted November 7, 2015 Report Share Posted November 7, 2015 It is amazing to recall that this trade happened: November 16, 1989: Traded by the Cleveland Cavaliers with a 1990 1st round draft pick (Loy Vaught was later selected), a 1991 2nd round draft pick (Joe Wylie was later selected) and a 1992 1st round draft pick (Elmore Spencer was later selected) to the Los Angeles Clippers for Danny Ferry and Reggie Williams. Because: * Ferry wouldn't sign with the Clippers * the Cavs decided it would be better to have Price+Ehlo in the backcourt than Price+Harper On the first, it shows how overrated Ferry was at the time. He wouldn't come to the Cavs until the 90/91 season, and then never amounted to a true quality player. On the second... Harper did seem to be going into Ball Hog mode: 22-7-7 with 20 shots a game (+6 from the prior year) and .442 shooting (minus near .060 from the prior year). I don't recall how focused he was on defense at the time, relative to the solid defender he became with the Bulls and Lakers. The Cavs being the Cavs, this worked out just great for them: - Ferry wasn't good - Harper blew out his knee in January - Price would blow out his knee the following November and wasn't quite the same after - Craig Ehlo was... well... Craig Fucking Ehlo Boy what a strange career Harper had. 20-6-5 in his last year with the Clippers, though his shooting was poor. There probably was some team in the NBA he could have conned out of good money. He wanted $20M for five years from the Clippers, but they balked. The Bulls gave him $19.2M over five years, but adjusted it around the cap with a backloaded deal. His playing time was cut in half, and he dropped to 7-2-2... and this was the year *before* Jordan came back. Or better to say, the year where Jordan came back later in the season. On some level it worked out. He got paid, and though he lost the ego-f of being a "big star" that he could have been somewhere else, he won 3 rings with Jordan, which earned him boned with Phil so that he was able to win 2 more with the Lakers (one as a starter, the other as a scrub because of his last major injury). 5 rings... not bad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted November 12, 2015 Report Share Posted November 12, 2015 This season feels like one big long coronation ceremony for Steph Curry and the Warriors. What dominant championship run does it compare to? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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