The NBA Playoffs are pro wrestling

[elliott]

I never said anything about Golden State being a Cinderella story or that they were the underdogs.

 

I mean it from a basketball standpoint.

 

To me, teams like Golden State, San Antonio, Atlanta, Orlando(in 3 years) etc represent the "good" to me whereas teams like LeBron's Heat, The LeBron/Kyrie/Love Cavs, the Kobe/Dwight/Nash Lakers, etc represent evil. Even teams like the Knicks represent evil to me even if they never win. So this isn't an "I hate LeBron!" argument (I don't, I think he's a doofus but as a bball player he's a genius).

 

I am not enamored by the "SuperStar" teams and when they get beat by actual Teams it is awesome. And actual "teams" can be filled with superstars. And SuperStar teams can be teams that were all drafted and grew up together. OKC is a small market team built around guys who were drafted and grew up together. But I found them to be very tedious to watch the last few years (admittedly I think a LOT of that is due to Scott Brooks).

 

I know you're going to throw back at me "but Kyrie and Love were hurt!" And you're right. THey were hurt. So yes, Cleveland was not a SuperStars Team in the finals. I'm not arguing that. We'll get there. I will point out that SuperStar teams tend to make really stupid personel decisions because they are constantly in win now panic mode. A lot of the time that's not playing young guys or trading future picks for that final veteran piece that will put them over the top. For the Cavs, maybe one of their stupid decisions was counting on Love and Kyrie to make it through 82 games and the playoffs every year? Who knows. But "these two guys with a history of injuries" got hurt is a pretty weak thing for Cavs fans to hang their hats on. Just saying.

 

Realistically, if the Cavs were going to win the Finals, I would have loved to see it happen with those guys hurt and LeBron having an all time performance. That would have been fucking awesome. But I've been a fan of this GS team since Curry came along (really I've always liked GS since they beat Dallas in 07) and I have been rooting against Cleveland all season. I'm not going to suddenly switch allegiances because unexpectedly 2 of the SuperStars on the SuperStar team are hurt and they don't have enough around them because they relied too much on the SuperStars during the season.

 

I like to watch unselfish, well coached, great offensive and defensive TEAM basketball. The Cavs haven't been that all season. The Warriors have been.

 

I think it's a WONDERFUL thing that the veteran who sacrificed to come off the bench in favor of a younger (and frankly not as good) player stepped up and had the series of his life and won the MVP (primarily for his defense I might add which is even better). That is a fantastic story and one much more interesting than "This guy took 30 shots a game and is therefore the MVP."

 

For me, I will always root for the team that grew up together and genuinely like each other over the team awkwardly slapped together around 3 superstars in "win now panic mode."

 

I say all of this and fully acknowledge and appreciate the incredible LeBron performance. He is a magnificent basketball player. Stupefyingly great. He's a pretty bad GM and says/does dumb things off the court. But on the court he's a genius and NOBODY else could have won 2 games against the Warriors with that supporting cast and that coach (I defended Blatt all year but he lost me forever when he benched Mozgov).

 

The Story of the LeBron/Love/Kyrie Cavs didn't start when the Finals began.

 

Good triumphed over evil.

 

Sorry I wasn't more clear when I originally posted.

[jdw]

I don't care for SuperStar teams, unless they happen to be "my" teams. Suspect you feel the same way: that recruiting class that got Ty Lawson, Brandan Wright, Wayne Ellington, Deon Thompson, Alex Stepheson & William Graves on the heels of getting Tyler Hansbrough & Danny Green & Co. the year before... I'm thinking you loved that.

 

I'm largely the same way. I have no love for the Heatles, though admit that I loved Jerry West working the deals that got Shaq and Kobe. I never had a problem with Manchester United being a super team relative to the rest of the EPL, even when I loathed Real Madrid when they took it to the next level in the early 00s. I never shed a tear that the Lakers were able to add #1 overall pick James Worthy to a Lakers team that just won the title with Jabbar, Magic, Nixon and Wilkes... thanks to fleecing the Cavs via the Don Ford Trade.

 

Because some of my teams over the past 40 years have been SuperStar Teams, I'm probably more tolerant of a team like the Heatles. I don't loath them, nor think they're evil. After all, the Draft and free agent restrictions as concepts are more evil. I get why they exist: if they didn't, teams like the Lakers or the Knicks would have gotten all the talent... or some billionaire buying a scrub team would.

 

I love the Warriors story, and pulled for them and the Spurs through the season and playoffs... especially since the Lakers were busy tanking. I like the team they put together, the staff, and the special advisor a/k/a Hall of Fame Player a/k/a Hall of Fame GM a/k/a Log. They had a great season, and I would have been a bit annoyed if they fell flat in the post season.

 

On the flip side, Lebron became compelling as the Cavs fell apart during the post season. Frankly, he was compelling in the regular season once the team got its shit together and you saw how much better guys like Mozgov & Shump & Smith were as role players with him than elsewhere, and we got more proof of what a good Waiters Island is. If they won the title, I think that you, Jag and me would have moved him up close to where Yohe had him ranked when we did our Top 50:

 

Lebron

#4 - Yohe
#9 - Jag
#10 - jdw
#11 - Elliott

 

There is something compelling and "good" about watching an all-time great play at a high level when the "possibilities" still exist on just how high he'd going to end up on that list. You get a player or two every generation who are Top 10 level, and rarer still where you get them and wonder how close they're going to get to Russell.

 

I'm happy how the series came out. The Warriors won which was awesome. By dragging a bunch of role players from 0-1 to 2-1, Lebron put another nail in the coffin of assholes like Skip Bayles who've spent a decade crapping on him.

[Jesse Ewiak]

Also, it's weird that when 'superstar' teams are created the 'right' way by bilking dumb owners out of draft picks via trades, ala the 80's Laker's that is all fine and good, but when three players dare not to want to be chained to the team they were randomly drafted too via lottery balls, they're horrible people who only care about winning.

 

I mean, I like the Warriors as a team too, but would their accomplishment be any less if say, Klay Thompson played for Minnesota or Sacramento his first few years.

[jdw]

The 80's Celtics were put together this way:

 

Larry Bird - the Celtics were willing to take a flyer that they would be able to sign him prior to the next draft even though he stayed in college. They were right.

 

Tiny Archibald - coming off an injury, the Celtics fleeced the Clippers.

 

Robert Parrish: fleeced the Warriors out of Parrish with the Joe Barry Car(es)roll draft pick.

 

Kevin McHale: fleeced the Warriors out of the McHale draft pick with the Joe Barry Car(es)roll draft pick. One of the greatest fleece job trades in NBA history.

 

Dennis Johnson: Just a stunning fleece job trade where PHX (much like Seattle before them) just wanted to get rid of him. The irony is that the "trouble maker" DJ became one of the great "teammates" in the league once he got to Boston.

 

Danny Ainge: the Celtics got him with the 8th pick of the 2nd round because Danny was playing baseball. In the event that he flopped at baseball, the Celtics were taking a flyer.

 

There's a lot of bullshit about the genius of Red. Some of the above was luck. But a lot of it was that other teams were stupid.

[elliott]

I'm about to head to work and don't have time for a meaningful response to John but I did want to reply to Jesse real quick...

 

Also, it's weird that when 'superstar' teams are created the 'right' way by bilking dumb owners out of draft picks via trades, ala the 80's Laker's that is all fine and good, but when three players dare not to want to be chained to the team they were randomly drafted too via lottery balls, they're horrible people who only care about winning.

 

I mean, I like the Warriors as a team too, but would their accomplishment be any less if say, Klay Thompson played for Minnesota or Sacramento his first few years.

 

I mentioned above that SuperStar teams created the "right way" don't always lead to a team that I'm a fan of. I pointed to OKC as an example.

 

I actually do think it's pretty great that GS didn't trade Klay for Love and then ended up beating the team that DID trade for Love while Love was hurt watching from the sidelines. If you're a GS fan and a Klay Fan that was really the final exclamation point on that whole argument.

 

You're too focused on guys being drafted to the same team and staying their whole career. This is about chemistry, team work, sacrificing, versatility, how the pieces fit together, etc.

[jdw]

I've enjoyed that pretty much every aspect of the Love story has gone in opposite directions.

 

The Dubs kept players who helped them win, which Love in their player probably would have been a headache because of his defense and oddball / inconsistent defense.

 

The Cavs traded away someone who would have been the perfect long term compliment to Lebron as a wing, letting Bron shift more over time to Point Power Forward. Said player also would have been on a rookie contract, freeing up tons of money. In his place the got a player who didn't fit in, and who will likely leave for nothing.

 

The Wovles botched the Rubio-Love contracts seven ways to Sunday, then screwed up their leverage on trade possibilities, and then damn near were going to be left without a suitor to get a building block player in return. They got extremely lucky that Bron went to Cleveland, decided he wanted to play with Love, wanted to win Now far more than he publicly talked about, and was incredibly short sighted on what he could do with Wiggins as his sidekick/protege. The Wolves are still a largely stupid team, including Flip. They got lucky that Wiggins fell in their lap. On the flip side... they're likely to botch that.

 

All of this has been funny. My laughter will likely end if Love signs with the Lakers and I'm stuck watching him defend 82 games a year. My nightmare is Okafor+Love = Two Bigs Who Can't Defend. Two years of tanking isn't worth that.

[WingedEagle]

I don't care for SuperStar teams, unless they happen to be "my" teams. Suspect you feel the same way: that recruiting class that got Ty Lawson, Brandan Wright, Wayne Ellington, Deon Thompson, Alex Stepheson & William Graves on the heels of getting Tyler Hansbrough & Danny Green & Co. the year before... I'm thinking you loved that.

 

I'm largely the same way. I have no love for the Heatles, though admit that I loved Jerry West working the deals that got Shaq and Kobe. I never had a problem with Manchester United being a super team relative to the rest of the EPL, even when I loathed Real Madrid when they took it to the next level in the early 00s. I never shed a tear that the Lakers were able to add #1 overall pick James Worthy to a Lakers team that just won the title with Jabbar, Magic, Nixon and Wilkes... thanks to fleecing the Cavs via the Don Ford Trade.

 

Because some of my teams over the past 40 years have been SuperStar Teams, I'm probably more tolerant of a team like the Heatles. I don't loath them, nor think they're evil. After all, the Draft and free agent restrictions as concepts are more evil. I get why they exist: if they didn't, teams like the Lakers or the Knicks would have gotten all the talent... or some billionaire buying a scrub team would.

 

I love the Warriors story, and pulled for them and the Spurs through the season and playoffs... especially since the Lakers were busy tanking. I like the team they put together, the staff, and the special advisor a/k/a Hall of Fame Player a/k/a Hall of Fame GM a/k/a Log. They had a great season, and I would have been a bit annoyed if they fell flat in the post season.

 

On the flip side, Lebron became compelling as the Cavs fell apart during the post season. Frankly, he was compelling in the regular season once the team got its shit together and you saw how much better guys like Mozgov & Shump & Smith were as role players with him than elsewhere, and we got more proof of what a good Waiters Island is. If they won the title, I think that you, Jag and me would have moved him up close to where Yohe had him ranked when we did our Top 50:

 

Lebron

#4 - Yohe

#9 - Jag

#10 - jdw

#11 - Elliott

 

There is something compelling and "good" about watching an all-time great play at a high level when the "possibilities" still exist on just how high he'd going to end up on that list. You get a player or two every generation who are Top 10 level, and rarer still where you get them and wonder how close they're going to get to Russell.

 

I'm happy how the series came out. The Warriors won which was awesome. By dragging a bunch of role players from 0-1 to 2-1, Lebron put another nail in the coffin of assholes like Skip Bayles who've spent a decade crapping on him.

 

#4?? This Yohe fella watches too much sportscenter Lebron probably makes my top 10 at this point. With a ring this year he would've been a no-brainer top 10, whereas now I'll still force myself to think about who's ahead of him even if he ends up there.

 

Who were the top 15 or so on eveyrone's list?

[elliott]

 

#4?? This Yohe fella watches too much sportscenter Lebron probably makes my top 10 at this point. With a ring this year he would've been a no-brainer top 10, whereas now I'll still force myself to think about who's ahead of him even if he ends up there.

 

Who were the top 15 or so on eveyrone's list?

 

 

Yohe:

1-Bill Russell

2-Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

3-Michal Jordan

4-Lebron James

5-Wilt Chamberlain

6-Jerry West

7-Oscar Robertson

8-Magic Johnson

9-Tim Duncan

10-George Mikan

11-Elgin Baylor

12-Larry Bird

13-Bob Pettit

14-Kobe Bryant

15-Hakeem Olajuwon

 

jdw

Okay... kind of winging this.

1. Michael Jordan

2. Bill Russell

3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

4. Tim Duncan

5. Magic Johnson

6. Larry Bird

7. Kobe Bryant

8. Wilt Chamberlain

9. Jerry West

10. LeBron James

11. Oscar Robertson

12. Hakeem Olajuwon

13. Shaquille O'Neal

14. Moses Malone

15. Elgin Baylor

 

Jagdip

1. Jordan

2. Kareem

3. Russell

4. Magic

5. Wilt

6. Kobe

7. Duncan

8. Bird

9. LeBron

10. Shaq

11. West

12. Oscar

13. Moses

14. Hakeem

15. Isiah

 

Elliott

1. Michael Jordan

2. Bill Russell

3. Tim Duncan

4. Kareem

5. Magic

6. Kobe

7. Jerry West

8. Oscar Robertson

9. Larry Bird

10. Wilt

11. Lebron

12. Shaq

13. Hakeem

14. Moses Malone

15. Elgin Baylor

 

Here's the thread

http://www.otherarena.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=2157&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

 

John pretty quickly jumped on me for ranking Duncan ahead of Kareem. I accepted this. But I think they're really close to each other and Duncan gets closer to surpassing him every year. John and I have the best top 15s.

[WingedEagle]

Awesome, thanks so much for posting these.

 

Very interesting that the same guy who has Lebron at 4 has Mikan at 10. Wouldn't expect to see that kind of pairing. Then again he didn't put Jordan 1 so I'd be inclined to dismiss the entire list

 

It warms the heart to see that you & JDW both showed proper respect for Duncan. While I know that generally being considered a top 10-12 all timer isn't anything to snuff at, it often seems as though he's an afterthought in these discussions.

 

We can all quibble about whether someone was slotted 1-2 spots too high or low, but the big variances are what make it interesting. Lebron at 4, Mikan 10, Bird 11, etc.

 

Russell is always the conundrum for me. You can't dismiss the rings, but I just don't know how to compare someone from that era against anyone basically post-Kareem.

[elliott]

Whenever people say "Duncan is the best PF of all time" its starting to seem like a backhanded compliment. I just don't see an argument to keep him out of the top 5. He has all the titles and accolades you could want. Peak, longevity, great offensively and defensively.

 

MJ and Russell are virtually interchangeable for me. I think Russell's accomplishments are just too impressive to even consider him for anything lower than 2. He's the best defensive player in history and his offense was much better than most people realize. He and Duncan are the best HOF teammates ever. He won titles as a player coach. A lot of people talk about "how good would he be in today's NBA?" as a negative for some of the older guys and as a way to prop up newer guys. I generally think dumb for a variety of reasons, but at the same time I think if Bill Russell was born in 1990, he would be an all time great player.

[WingedEagle]

Completely agree ab out the greatest PF of all time logic. Call him that if you like, or a top 3 Center (at worst) -- just make sure you call him one of the greatest players who ever lived. I have a tough time selling myself on Russell due to competition at the time but can't really argue with the jewelry.

 

Leaving Russ at or near the top gives Duncan a floor on my list at 6, behind MJ, Russ, Kareem, Bird and Magic, with cases to be made for slotting him above anybody other than Jordan and perhaps Kareem. I can easily settle for best post-MJ and a slam dunk member of the your all time 8 man rotation. What I can't fathom is how anyone could slot him below the 6-8 range.

[elliott]

Talk more about Bird over Duncan.

[WingedEagle]

I think the strongest case for Bird is the competition and taking out Erving, Magic/Kareem and Hakeem en route to his titles. I wasn't old enough to watch and appreciate him in his prime on a daily basis. He also had McHale, Parrish, DJ and a much deeper team on the whole than Duncan ever did, though Duncan had arguably one of the greatest coaches of all time with him.

 

You can't knock Duncan for sweeping a weak Cavs team in '07 or a post-prime Ewing-less Knicks in '99, but it seems as though people forget that he had to go through the Shaq/Kobe Lakes in '03, the '05 Suns (with a prime Amare that felt like a world beater at the time) and then a prime LBJ last year. That has got to count for something.

 

Bird also unquestionably has more standout offensive performances. Not going to dispute for a minute that he was a more prolific scorer, and while Duncan was never asked to carry that kind of load on a nightly basis, its not even worth trying to look for ways around that argument in his favor. I wouldn't fault anyone for putting Bird over him but think the case for Duncan is just as strong, especially when you factor in his work on both ends of the floor and a comparison of their supporting casts. That's also forgetting about durability and what may have been if Bird's back held up. Though we all know that happened at the perfect time so that he never had to take a fair loss to Jordan

[jdw]

#4?? This Yohe fella watches too much sportscenter Lebron probably makes my top 10 at this point. With a ring this year he would've been a no-brainer top 10, whereas now I'll still force myself to think about who's ahead of him even if he ends up there.

 

Who were the top 15 or so on eveyrone's list?

 

 

Yohe is 65+ and grew up watching Baylor and West when the Lakers first showed up in Los Angeles.

 

He admitted that perhaps he was jumping the gun by having him that high. But he also thought he's been clearly the best player in the NBA from 2008/2009 to 2013/2014. There aren't many players who were clearly the best in the NBA for six seasons, and I think in Steve's mind the only ones are the folks he has ahead of Lebron: Russell, Jabbar and Jordan. There is a certain logic to that.

 

He also places more weight in Mikan's dominance (5 titles in 6 years or 6 titles in 7 years depending on how you count it). Jag and I discount him because of (i) the era of Narrow Key & No Shot Clock helped him, and (ii) The Lack of Black Players. We agree he has to be in the Top 50 somewhere, but rate him way down. He would have been exposed in Russell's era.

[jdw]

I think the strongest case for Bird is the competition and taking out Erving, Magic/Kareem and Hakeem en route to his titles. I wasn't old enough to watch and appreciate him in his prime on a daily basis. He also had McHale, Parrish, DJ and a much deeper team on the whole than Duncan ever did, though Duncan had arguably one of the greatest coaches of all time with him.

 

 

I think one of the funny-odd things about Bird were those first four seasons:

 

Eastern Conference Champions

1980 Philadelphia 76ers (4-1 over Celtics)

1981 Boston Celtics (4-3 over 76ers)

1982 Philadelphia 76ers (4-3 over Celtics)

1983 Philadelphia 76ers (Celtics were swept by the Bucks in the ECSF)

 

People like to remember the 1981 series because the 76ers blew the 3-1 lead, but they tend to forget that Doc vs Bird in the ECF was 2-1 before Doc got Moses. Then the Celtics ducked the match up in the fourth season.

 

The Celtics in those four seasons were far from impressive. That's before taking into consideration that they won the 1981 title over the 40-42 team in the Finals thanks to the West melting down in the post season.

 

The 1984-87 Celtics were impressive. Though I'm not sold that coming out of the East in those years was as impressive as coming out of the West in the 2000s and 2010s.

 

 

You can't knock Duncan for sweeping a weak Cavs team in '07 or a post-prime Ewing-less Knicks in '99, but it seems as though people forget that he had to go through the Shaq/Kobe Lakes in '03, the '05 Suns (with a prime Amare that felt like a world beater at the time) and then a prime LBJ last year. That has got to count for something.

 

 

They went through Shaqkobe in 1999 as well, sweeping them.

 

They did have some issues with the Lakers from 2000-2004 losing in 2001, 2002 & 2004 while winning in 2003. But those transitional Duncan Spurs really weren't that great behind him. That they still won 53, 58, 58, 60 & 57 games in those years in the West is mind blowing and a sign of just how good Peak Duncan was in carrying them. Look at the 2004 Spurs:

 

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/SAS/2004.html

 

That is not yet a great team as Tony and Manu hadn't yet taken the leap. Yet they went 57-25 in the West.

 

Tim basically gets very little credit for how pedestrian his teammates were in those years, yet they kept winning. That they won it all in 2003 is pretty mind bending if you look at the roster.

 

I'd take Peak Bird over Peak Duncan, but Peak Duncan was a helluva played and pretty underrated. With Larry you get 1980-1988 as pre-peak and peak, 9 years. Timmy would be 1998-2007, which is 10 years. The thing with Tim is that you get another 8 years where the first few remained a very strong post-peak, and then the "fading" Duncan remained a foundational player on a very good team that was good enough to bag another title. It's just an amazing run.

 

I can't put him above Jabbar, who had an even longer and better pre-peak and peak, and then the same post-peak where he was a key player on some terrific teams. He really only faded in the last two years.

[WingedEagle]

 

#4?? This Yohe fella watches too much sportscenter Lebron probably makes my top 10 at this point. With a ring this year he would've been a no-brainer top 10, whereas now I'll still force myself to think about who's ahead of him even if he ends up there.

 

Who were the top 15 or so on eveyrone's list?

 

 

Yohe is 65+ and grew up watching Baylor and West when the Lakers first showed up in Los Angeles.

 

He admitted that perhaps he was jumping the gun by having him that high. But he also thought he's been clearly the best player in the NBA from 2008/2009 to 2013/2014. There aren't many players who were clearly the best in the NBA for six seasons, and I think in Steve's mind the only ones are the folks he has ahead of Lebron: Russell, Jabbar and Jordan. There is a certain logic to that.

 

He also places more weight in Mikan's dominance (5 titles in 6 years or 6 titles in 7 years depending on how you count it). Jag and I discount him because of (i) the era of Narrow Key & No Shot Clock helped him, and (ii) The Lack of Black Players. We agree he has to be in the Top 50 somewhere, but rate him way down. He would have been exposed in Russell's era.

 

 

Ha I kind of sensed Yohe may have been around a few more years than me. I kind of see the argument about LBJ being #1 from 09-14, but on the other hand you can point to Duncan being top 2/3 over a 10+ year stretch. With multiple rings. Without an all-time supporting cast. In a system and with a mindset not geared towards posting crushing individual numbers.

 

I'm with you you on MIkan -- great as he may have been, you can't discount those 2 huge, huge points. If we're being unfair to Mikan he'll have to live with his fistful of rings and status as a pioneer and legend but just not widely regarded as a top tier all-timer.

[WingedEagle]

 

I think the strongest case for Bird is the competition and taking out Erving, Magic/Kareem and Hakeem en route to his titles. I wasn't old enough to watch and appreciate him in his prime on a daily basis. He also had McHale, Parrish, DJ and a much deeper team on the whole than Duncan ever did, though Duncan had arguably one of the greatest coaches of all time with him.

 

 

I think one of the funny-odd things about Bird were those first four seasons:

 

Eastern Conference Champions

1980 Philadelphia 76ers (4-1 over Celtics)

1981 Boston Celtics (4-3 over 76ers)

1982 Philadelphia 76ers (4-3 over Celtics)

1983 Philadelphia 76ers (Celtics were swept by the Bucks in the ECSF)

 

People like to remember the 1981 series because the 76ers blew the 3-1 lead, but they tend to forget that Doc vs Bird in the ECF was 2-1 before Doc got Moses. Then the Celtics ducked the match up in the fourth season.

 

The Celtics in those four seasons were far from impressive. That's before taking into consideration that they won the 1981 title over the 40-42 team in the Finals thanks to the West melting down in the post season.

 

The 1984-87 Celtics were impressive. Though I'm not sold that coming out of the East in those years was as impressive as coming out of the West in the 2000s and 2010s.

 

 

You can't knock Duncan for sweeping a weak Cavs team in '07 or a post-prime Ewing-less Knicks in '99, but it seems as though people forget that he had to go through the Shaq/Kobe Lakes in '03, the '05 Suns (with a prime Amare that felt like a world beater at the time) and then a prime LBJ last year. That has got to count for something.

 

 

They went through Shaqkobe in 1999 as well, sweeping them.

 

They did have some issues with the Lakers from 2000-2004 losing in 2001, 2002 & 2004 while winning in 2003. But those transitional Duncan Spurs really weren't that great behind him. That they still won 53, 58, 58, 60 & 57 games in those years in the West is mind blowing and a sign of just how good Peak Duncan was in carrying them. Look at the 2004 Spurs:

 

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/SAS/2004.html

 

That is not yet a great team as Tony and Manu hadn't yet taken the leap. Yet they went 57-25 in the West.

 

Tim basically gets very little credit for how pedestrian his teammates were in those years, yet they kept winning. That they won it all in 2003 is pretty mind bending if you look at the roster.

 

I'd take Peak Bird over Peak Duncan, but Peak Duncan was a helluva played and pretty underrated. With Larry you get 1980-1988 as pre-peak and peak, 9 years. Timmy would be 1998-2007, which is 10 years. The thing with Tim is that you get another 8 years where the first few remained a very strong post-peak, and then the "fading" Duncan remained a foundational player on a very good team that was good enough to bag another title. It's just an amazing run.

 

I can't put him above Jabbar, who had an even longer and better pre-peak and peak, and then the same post-peak where he was a key player on some terrific teams. He really only faded in the last two years.

 

 

Don't know how to format this properly to mix quoting and responding so you'll have to bear with me. No arguments at all here on Bird, and without 84-87 producing the jewelry it did we may very well be talking about the before and after in the same fashion as do LBJ.

 

Maybe I'm not giving Shaq & Kobe enough credit but things got rolling there when Phil showed up so I'm not holding that against them. But you certainly can.

 

Peak Duncan is arguably the most underrated player we've seen. You highlighted Parker & Manu in '04, which is 12 months removed from the biggest talking point in the finals being whether the Spurs could land Kidd to replace Parker -- which they would've if Kidd was on board with their money instead of a larger payday in NY (and perhaps some ear wringing from Joumana, but that's for another day). It still boggles my mind that Parker took Finals MVP in '07 or even Kahwi least year -- he may have made Lebron work but that's a 50 win team if you take away any body other than Tim. Maybe even any 2 bodies. If Duncan isn't there its probably a playoff team due to Pop but you'd find some money betting against it.

 

Absolutely difficult to argue against Jabbar's run when Duncan's post-prime is such a huge part of his resume, but settling for something in the 4-8 range, the #2 big in my eyes and 5 rings is not too shabby.

[elliott]

 

Yohe is 65+ and grew up watching Baylor and West when the Lakers first showed up in Los Angeles.

 

 

I was gonna say that Yohe put Mikan that high because they were elementary school pals. But John is his good buddy so I figured I'd let him bring up the age thing. I appreciate Yohe's perspective though because he is a hardcore fan that got to watch everyone from Russell and West to Anthony Davis and Steph Curry. So I kid because I love

 

On LeBron at #4...I mean, if the Cavs had managed to steal the series, that's an argument I would listen to. I don't know that I could ever put him above MJ, Russ, Timmy and Kareem. But I would actually have been ok with leapfrogging him above Magic/Kobe/West had they won the title. If I did the list again right now I'd put him over Wilt, Bird and Oscar. I just don't have the heart to put him above Jerry West yet.

[elliott]

I think the strongest case for Bird is the competition and taking out Erving, Magic/Kareem and Hakeem en route to his titles. I wasn't old enough to watch and appreciate him in his prime on a daily basis. He also had McHale, Parrish, DJ and a much deeper team on the whole than Duncan ever did, though Duncan had arguably one of the greatest coaches of all time with him.

 

You can't knock Duncan for sweeping a weak Cavs team in '07 or a post-prime Ewing-less Knicks in '99, but it seems as though people forget that he had to go through the Shaq/Kobe Lakes in '03, the '05 Suns (with a prime Amare that felt like a world beater at the time) and then a prime LBJ last year. That has got to count for something.

 

Bird also unquestionably has more standout offensive performances. Not going to dispute for a minute that he was a more prolific scorer, and while Duncan was never asked to carry that kind of load on a nightly basis, its not even worth trying to look for ways around that argument in his favor. I wouldn't fault anyone for putting Bird over him but think the case for Duncan is just as strong, especially when you factor in his work on both ends of the floor and a comparison of their supporting casts. That's also forgetting about durability and what may have been if Bird's back held up. Though we all know that happened at the perfect time so that he never had to take a fair loss to Jordan

 

Duncan's defense sways this in a major way I think.

 

Duncan is probably one of the 10 best defensive players ever. He was 2nd team all defense his rookie year, behind Karl Malone and Scottie Pippen. He was 1st team all defense his 2nd year and finished ahead of Pippen and Malone. He's been 1st or 2nd team all defense 15 seasons. This aspect of his game literally has not fallen off and in some ways has gotten even better.

 

Bird was probably a league average defender. I know people will argue that he was a good "team defender" who would play "free safety" and gamble for steals and I can accept that. But the gap between the two is enormous. Duncan is/was a great offensive player and an all time defender. I just can't in good conscience put Bird above that.

 

I definitely agree that Bird is better offensively. Bird was more versatile offensively in the halfcourt and in transition because he could grab a rebound and sprint off running the fast break. Bird was a better passer overall, but Duncan is an excellent passing big man.

 

Duncan swamps him as far as longevity, durability, and overall team success. He won less MVPs, but Timmy still bagged 2 of them (and let's be real, if Tim Duncan was some white hick from Indiana he would have more than 2 mvps). More all star and all nba team appearances so Duncan beats him as far as awards/accolades as well.

 

You could build a team around Bird's offense and win titles. You could build a team around Tim's offense and/or defense and win titles. That's why I'm firm on Duncan in my top 3 or 4 and Bird is sitting at 9 and could fall out of the top 10 depending on what happens over the next few decades

 

Bird is great. I mean, top 9 out of 1000s great. His very best seasons are better. But I definitely think Duncan is a step above Bird.

[jdw]

I think what I love about Yohe is straight out of his Top 4:

 

1-Bill Russell

 

This is a guy who played from 1957-1969, who Steve watched when he was a pre-teen through his high school and Viet Nam years.

2-Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

 

Cap played from 1970-1989, with Yohe watching him from his Nam days into his late 30s. He's basically a few years younger than Cap.

 

3-Michal Jordan

 

Played 1985-1998, so this is Steve watching a guy from his mid-30s to later 40s.

 

 

4-Lebron James

 

Has played from 2004-2015, so you have someone Steve has watched from his mid-50s now into his mid-60s, and will watch into his 70s.

 

Steve's list covers guys he's watched across close to 60 years, and here he is willing to put someone who he's watched in his mid-50s through mid-60s above loads of guys he grew up watching and loved (Baylor & West), or were iconic at the time (Wilt & Big O), or guys who played in probably the peak of his fandom in the 80s (Magic and Bird). There's no doubt that Steve like all of us bring bias when doing such a list. But I always am truly amazed by how willing he is to put over people across all eras, from his youth to the present. We often get sentimental about the stars were grew up with. Steve is as well if we picked apart his list, but less so that one would think.

[elliott]

Who is the pro wrestling equivalent of Boogie Cousins?

[ohtani's jacket]

Something about Duncan being better than Bird doesn't sit right with me. I have a tremendous amount of respect for what Pops and Duncan have built since Timmy was drafted, and last year's Spurs were sublime in terms of ball movement and team basketball, but Game 7, who would you rather have, Duncan or Bird? Even in Duncan's prime where he was capable of putting up a quadruple double in a Finals game, it didn't seem like he could dominate a game like Shaq. jdw mentioned that 2003 side, but Duncan only carried them in terms of being the lead scorer. He needed help winning that title. He's a great, great player, but I don't think you could put as much on his back as you could Bird. Bird just seems so much more competitive to me even though Duncan is obvious competitive in his own stoic way, but Bird was at a Jordan level of competitiveness. The list of guys who were as competitive as Bird during Bird's prime NBA years (and even in his post-prime) would be a fairly short list. I get the longevity argument, though.

[WingedEagle]

Duncan couldn't dominate a game offensively like Shaq or Bird. Throw in defense and his ability to dominate a game is arguably on par with them.

 

What super teams was Duncan on? The '03 Nets team was no all timer and certainly no match for the Spurs, but he went through the West -- including the Shaq/Kobe/Phil Lakers and the final Dirk/Nash Mavs without another all star on the roster. '99 was also post-prime Robinson. Bird's teams were a hell of a lot more loaded than any Duncan title team.

 

I know Bird and Jordan get a lot of love for their competitiveness. I'd argue Duncan holds up fairly well there given the 2 biggest losses of his career ('06 vs. Mavs, '13 vs. Heat) were both followed by title seasons.

[WingedEagle]

Who is the pro wrestling equivalent of Boogie Cousins?

 

Maybe, maybe Jeff Hardy? But without the ability to play a heel? Doesn't quite feel right but I'm grasping here.

[elliott]

Something about Duncan being better than Bird doesn't sit right with me. I have a tremendous amount of respect for what Pops and Duncan have built since Timmy was drafted, and last year's Spurs were sublime in terms of ball movement and team basketball, but Game 7, who would you rather have, Duncan or Bird? Even in Duncan's prime where he was capable of putting up a quadruple double in a Finals game, it didn't seem like he could dominate a game like Shaq. jdw mentioned that 2003 side, but Duncan only carried them in terms of being the lead scorer. He needed help winning that title. He's a great, great player, but I don't think you could put as much on his back as you could Bird. Bird just seems so much more competitive to me even though Duncan is obvious competitive in his own stoic way, but Bird was at a Jordan level of competitiveness. The list of guys who were as competitive as Bird during Bird's prime NBA years (and even in his post-prime) would be a fairly short list. I get the longevity argument, though.

 

Look at that 2003 team again. There's not a lot of help there.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/SAS/2003.html

 

We can presume that Bird could have carried a group of scrubs like that but there's no real evidence of it. With Duncan there is. Look at that team. I came across this great quote a couple of days ago actually about the 2003 team.

“Stephen Jackson’s our second-best player. And the Nets cut him.” (Chicago Tribune)

-Anonymous Spurs staffer on Duncan's 2003 MVP case.

So I would reject the idea that he couldn't carry teams.

Longevity is the key thing though. I admitted peak Bird is better than peak Duncan.