[Thought experiment] Imagine if the territories stay intact ...

[JerryvonKramer]

Imagine a scenario whereby none of the promotions try to expand or go national, and all of the territories persist into the 1990s intact. In this scenario, let's go back to the landscape of 1975. Detroit, LA and San Francisco all still active. GCW and Mid-Atlantic separate promotions. WWF run in the Vince Sr style. AWA doing well in its major markets but not expanding beyond them. Canadian promotions viable places to work. That's the landscape.

 

What sort of star do you think the major stars of the 80s and 90s would have been? How would it have affected their careers? Where do you see certain guys homesteadding? Who is a bigger star as a result? Who is a smaller star? Why?

 

This is just a fun thing to think about. Just a random example: do you think guys like Barry Windham or Mike Rotunda would have just stayed in Florida, or would they have travelled? What would a guy like Sid's career have looked like?

 

Important note: I do not want people coming in and talking about whether any of this was possible or even plausible. We all know that the territory system probably would not have persisted. This is not the point of this thread. If you want to state the obvious, make another thread in which to do it. I specifically do not want this to become a debate about how likely or unlikely it would have been. This is purely imagining what guys' careers would have been like had the territories been intact.

[van_Fair]

One thing I always thought is that a guy like Randy Orton would benefit so much from this. Here is a guy with pretty much all the talent needed to become an all time great. But because he spent all of his career in one place in a comfortable spot in the card he stalled out big time. If the territories would still be there, he would have been sent on a seasoning tour early on to hone his craft. Afterwards he would have the opportunities to leave and freshen up his act. As Cornette is saying "We can't miss you if you aren't gone." I'd say in a territory system Orton could be one of the top 5 workers in the business today.

[JerryvonKramer]

One thing I always thought is that a guy like Randy Orton would benefit so much from this. Here is a guy with pretty much all the talent needed to become an all time great. But because he spent all of his career in one place in a comfortable spot in the card he stalled out big time. If the territories would still be there, he would have been sent on a seasoning tour early on to hone his craft. Afterwards he would have the opportunities to leave and freshen up his act. As Cornette is saying "We can't miss you if you aren't gone." I'd say in a territory system Orton could be one of the top 5 workers in the business today.

 

I agree that Orton is one guy whose development seems really stunted from the current era guys.

 

But what sort of role do you see him playing in the territories? Main event travelling heel? NWA champ? Not disagreeing, necessarily, but I'm struggling to think of a similar guy that was a big star in previous eras. Who would be a point of comparison would you say?

[Parties]

Depends on what we mean by a territorial system and how far the “time warp” scenario goes. Territories remained territories in part because few people had the cable/satellite means to see TV from other groups beyond their local. Today, all art is both global, with a degree of regional flavor (Dirty South sounds different than A$AP gang, etc.) Let’s say that the internet and digital TV remain what they currently are, but no one really went national. Even without an invader like Vince, a lot of these promoters would have shot themselves in the foot eventually. But new ones then could have cropped up in their place.

 

One of the more interesting parts of this hypothetical for me is that even if wrestling remains territorial, it's still prone to the ups and downs of regional economies. A Detroit territory wouldn't have lasted. Anything in Tennessee/Kentucky/Ohio/Mississippi would have suffered greatly. But something based out of Texas, be it World Class or someone else, would be doing phenomenal business right now, if based in the country's fastest growing cities: Houston, Austin, Dallas, etc.

In a lot of cases, you’d have to assume that guys would stay where they came from, or wherever they got their first big push. Buddy Rose, Steamboat, Hennig, etc - we can pretty well guess that they would have kept doing what was working for them in their respective zones. Cornette probably tours to the extent possible, before settling into a booking job at whatever Crockett and/or Watts produce. To me it’s more interesting to wonder where the stars of the late 90s/2000s who started after the territories closed would end up. And how UFC would factor into it all. Does someone like Illinois’ own Clay Guida find himself in a Greg Gagne-owned AWA? Or Frank Mir, if the company still ends up in Vegas? They would have certainly had the best chance of getting guys like Lesnar, Benjamin, Hass, etc.

Savage is the exception to the rule: I think he works anywhere and everywhere as a wild man special attraction who never holds the world title, but who is in high demand from all promoters. Foley is a similar deal, albeit as less of a star. He’s less the Brody of his time, and more the Crusher Blackwell. Rampage Jackson, Sapp, and Don Frye all could have been major touring heels who could come in, do a main event feud, and then ride into the sunset.

Even in an internet age, I don’t think guys like Sapolsky, Feinstein, Quack, and Bauer would have had a place in the business. Maybe as Jim Ross office types, but they wouldn’t be running their own promotions.

I don’t think Hogan would have stayed in the AWA. Just feels like more of a Florida guy. He becomes a musclebound Dusty Rhodes: powerful figure who can book himself as top star. He never becomes NWA world champion.

Bret, Davey and Owen remain in Stampede. Bret enters the Stu role of owner/booker, cultivating his preferred mix of great technicians and Sweet Daddy Sikis. Present-day Stampede looks a lot like 2008 ROH, built around guys like Pillman, Benoit, Tyson Kidd, Cesaro, Harry Smith, Danielson, Nigel, Angle, Thatcher and Finlay, with guys like Heath Slater, Elijah Burke, Drew Galloway, and Wade Barrett as the colorful foils. I could even see them finding guys like Rashad Evans and Montana native Keith Jardine.

Memphis feels like the place you would have seen lots of the WWF guys of the late 80s and 90s. Not a big stretch given that a lot of them came through there anyway. You’d have seen big guys like Sid, Taker, Yoko, Rikishi as the monster-of-the-month against Lawler. Memphis’s own Rampage Jackson would have been perfect there. Jeff Jarrett is in the mix. Hopefully by ’98, Lawler would pass the torch of top star to young upstart Flex Cavana. Maybe Regal gets a Dundee/Adrian Street style run there? Company’s booked by a mix of Lawler, Dundee, and Dutch. You’d also see some guys who never got national runs as sporadic stars there: Colt Cabana, PG-13, Flash Flanagan, Steve Bradley, Chris Hamrick, Ian Rotten, Jimmy Jacobs, various ECW guys.

Detroit becomes the hardcore center, not Philly, which remains a Crockett-NWA haven. Sheik’s promotion builds around Sabu, Van Dam, Malenko, Japanese/Mexican recruits, and later CM Punk. That said, with the nature of the city’s economic downturn, I don’t think it would remained a big territory, and may well have closed due to the city falling into its depression.

Even if still trained by Bassman, Cena remains a WWF guy due to his Boston connections. Maybe he even maintains some of his rap persona to remain more of a Bruno “man of the people”. I think Samoa Joe would have been brought into a Vince Sr-minded WWF as well. For some reason I also picture Konnan getting over as a draw in New York, as sort of a modern Pedro Morales. Joe Lauzon as your modern Backlund babyface who's both crazy-eyed and mild-mannered. Heyman probably would have remained there, and the void of Bobby Heenan and Ventura is filled by some combo of Heyman, Raven, NYC radio stars, or someone entirely different.

Portland could have been the Chael Sonnen show, with Josh Barnett, Nate Marquart, and Davey Richards in the hunt. A talented territory that ran Portland/Seattle/Salt Lake City/Boise/Silicon Valley would be doing big business in thriving communities right now.

 

One big unknown for me would be how present-day California would fit into all this. A Lucha Underground style company based out of LA, coupled with a Bay Area group of would-be MMA guys? A New Japan LA Dojo using NJ’s current gaijin, Uriah Faber types, and various ROH/PWG/Evolve guys? Something owned by the Shamrocks? A pro wrestling group built around AKA guys like Daniel Cormier, Cain Velasquez, Fitch, Arlovski, Penn, Lashley and Rumble Johnson?

[van_Fair]

 

One thing I always thought is that a guy like Randy Orton would benefit so much from this. Here is a guy with pretty much all the talent needed to become an all time great. But because he spent all of his career in one place in a comfortable spot in the card he stalled out big time. If the territories would still be there, he would have been sent on a seasoning tour early on to hone his craft. Afterwards he would have the opportunities to leave and freshen up his act. As Cornette is saying "We can't miss you if you aren't gone." I'd say in a territory system Orton could be one of the top 5 workers in the business today.

 

I agree that Orton is one guy whose development seems really stunted from the current era guys.

 

But what sort of role do you see him playing in the territories? Main event travelling heel? NWA champ? Not disagreeing, necessarily, but I'm struggling to think of a similar guy that was a big star in previous eras. Who would be a point of comparison would you say?

 

 

While it's from the dying days of the territories I think Mid to Late 80s Terry Funk would be a good comparison. Just a mean vicious bastard that comes in to destroy the punish the top face. Orton doesn't fit the mold of classical Monster Heel like Abby or Brody, but he does project a good amount of menace. Also like Funk he has the wrestling fundamentals to have great matches with just about any style of wrestler.

 

Travelling NWA champ I could see talent wise, but I think his personality issues would prevent him from becoming the top NWA guy. Travelling Main Event Heel who doesn't overstay his welcome and occasionally burns a bridge seems like a fitting role for him.

[Bierschwale]

The Batista/Bryan dichotomy is what strikes me most immediately, and that the "fan as star" era never develops. Scott Norton seems like the biggest gainer on net there. Ray Traylor never becomes stuck to a gimmick. Bobby Lashley. Really, anyone that Inoki or Verne signed off on seems like that they'd have been bigger or have retained their standing (Angle and Lesnar).

[JerryvonKramer]

Soon I'm going to pick two random cards from WWF and WCW in 1990 and go through them speculating on what the guys careers would have been like with full territories active.

 

People have pointed to more modern-era examples, but I think the territories were effectively dead by about 1985 anyway, so most guys active 85-95 will have had very different careers.

[KrisZ]

1990 is too early I would go with 1993

[Cross Face Chicken Wing]

Wouldn't the territorial stars in the LA and New York areas have a greater chance of breaking out into some type of mainstream success since they'd be located near Hollywood and the east coast media empire?

 

Then again, if we're keeping a territorial mindset, perhaps the promoters wouldn't allow any potential stars to spread their wings beyond wrestling.

[JerryvonKramer]

Okay going with Beach Blast 93 and Summerslam 93

 

Paul Orndorff - still see him going to WWF, probably working up in Canada, and bouncing around the other territories.

 

Ron Simmons - I think he would have been a big deal in Florida and a mainstay of that promotion. I don't see why he couldn't have been a staple draw there.

 

Marcus Alexander Bagwell - Hard to say, but I think he would have made a good living as a blow job babyface whereever.

 

Too Cold Scorpio - He'd have found work everywhere, but I don't know if he's a big star anywhere. If they were running it, he could have been a travelling NWA Junior Heavyweight champ a la Les Thornton.

 

Shanghai Pierce & Tex Slazenger - hmmmm, have territorial mid-card act written all over them. Could have maybe been a major tag-team in a lesser promotion like a Dick the Bruiser's WWA or somewhere like that.

 

Lord Steven Regal - big heel star who'd have worked everywhere, run in Memphis, run in Crockett, run in Georgia, run in New York, don't see why he wouldn't have gotten over in every place.

 

Erik Watts - assuming Bill is running Mid-South, he could have had a Mike Graham-y sort of career, maybe.

 

Johnny B. Badd - Really hard to know what he would have done, any insights welcome. I find it hard to imagine Badd in the earlier landscape for some reason.

 

Maxx Payne - jobber most probably, maybe a run higher up the card in some backwater territory

 

Flyin' Brian - could have been a Ricky Steamboat-type over top babyface in a promotion. Can see him being over in Crockett actually. Don't see him in New York.

 

Stunning Steve - would have been a star probably around Texas more. If Amarillo was running you can see him getting over in The Funks' territory, face or heel.

 

Arn Anderson - career wouldn't change too much, maybe he doesn't get the WWF run without the national picture, but see him working GCW, Mid-South, Crockett in a holding pattern a bit like Ole did with GCW, Crockett and Florida.

 

Paul Roma - he'd have made a living for sure as a journeyman

 

Dustin Rhodes - can see him getting over, especially in Florida and Dusty's other mainstay territories. Possibly NWA champ at some point down the road.

 

Rick Rude - Top heel around the country. Definite shots vs. champ in New York. Would have worked an Ivan Koloff / Ernie Ladd sort of schedule I think. 6 months here, 9 months there. Shots in AWA at some point as well.

 

Ric Flair - Career not changed too much. Maybe travel gets to him a bit earlier and he steps down as NWA champ around 1990. Only Sting won't be the guy getting the rub from the switch.

 

Barry Windham - possible NWA champ to replace Flair. His career surely would have been better than it was. He'd work Florida, Crockett, Texas, no reason why he couldn't run in AWA or New York either. All the places his old man worked.

 

Davey Boy Smith - I don't see him travelling that much through the territories, but he would have done Calgary and Japan for sure. I can see him settling in a promotion and maybe getting over as a number #2 babyface, but beats me where that would be. Perhaps a bit small for New York?

 

Sting - maybe over as a star in Crockett or GCW post-Tommy Rich. Don't see him becoming a World Champ though.

 

Big Van Vader - can see him being a bit more like Stan Hansen and working more in Japan than in the US for the better pay days. Doesn't become world champ. More WWF shots as big man vs. champion. Probably would have worked AWA more too.

 

Sid Vicious - hard to say, I honestly can't imagine Sid making it through any of the territories, as a heel he might have had a Big John Studd-type career, but I don't know if a guy so bad at the basics gets over in the territorial days.

 

....

 

Razor Ramon - No reason he couldn't have made a good living and I can see him getting over in the right time and place. Weirdly, I think Knoxville for some reason, but no idea why.

 

Ted DiBiase - I don't really see him leaving Mid-South if the other places aren't national. He'd have stayed loyal to Watts and Baba until the end. Working the sort of split schedule he did in 85/6.

 

The Steiner Brothers - big stars, they had that legit background the old timers loved and would have main evented in tag-heavy promotions. Big splash in Crockett. Can see them in AWA too.

 

The Heavenly Bodies - don't see their careers being much different

 

Shawn Michaels - don't see him becoming world champ or going to WWF, but he'd have been a star.

 

Diesel - Could have made a living as a monster heel.

 

Mr. Perfect - Maybe his career would have been enhanced, I see him staying in AWA though and maybe being their champ for some time.

 

Irwin R. Schyster - I think Rotunda stays in Florida more with stints in JCP and GCW, but I don't see him moving much out of that loop.

 

The 1-2-3 Kid - probable jobber, can't see a guy with that build being booked

 

Bret Hart - hmmmm... very interesting. Maybe someone else can speculate here. But he probably stays in Stampede longer. Doubtful he ever gets to be world champ.

 

Doink - I think is career isn't altered that much by this

 

Jerry Lawler - obvious

 

Ludvig Borga - makes a living as a foreign heel

 

Marty Jannetty - he'd have been booked everywhere as a good hand, maybe even a star

 

The Undertaker - would have had a career, but highly doubtful it would have been a legendary one. As the gimmick maybe in LA or Detroit? Surely would have had a run vs. champ in WWF too.

 

Giant Gonzalez - career trajectory exactly the same, whatever the time or place.

 

Tatanka - Replaces Wahoo or Chief Jay as resident Indian, OR plays two-bit knock off Indian in Central States or some other two-bit promotion

 

The Smoking Gunns (Bart Gunn & Billy Gunn) - can see them travelling about as a tagteam

 

Bam Bam Bigelow - no doubt would have been an attraction with his "big man who can move" stuff, obvious Andre opponent, shots vs. champ in WWF, shots in AWA, can see him booked everywhere -- career similar to Jerry Blackwell's.

 

The Headshrinkers - would have been booked whereever The Samoans were. Have WWF tag-champs written all over them. Curfew draws a-plenty.

 

Lex Luger - maybe he stays in Florida longer and vies with Ron Simmons to be the biggest star down there. Would have got over anywhere due to his amazing look.

 

Yokozuna - I'm picturing some weird gimmick match in Detroit with probable runs in LA and WWF. Would have been a special attraction like Haystacks Calhoun only heel.

[Al]

I'd imagine territories landing on regional sporting networks. I could see a scenario where say, Vince is on MSG and an upstart cable system like SNY picks up an upstart wrestling promotion. A Battle For Atlanta style territorial war for the new century.

[Johnny Sorrow]

Since Sid started in the Territories and in his own way always was a traveling guy, even during the Late nineties into early 2000 boom...I'd imagine he'd had been just fine.

And Les Thornton? Are you high ? No one gave a shit about him, number one. And where was he a "traveling " NWA jr champ? Traveling from his trailer to fairgrounds to Waffle House and back to his trailer ? Scorpio would have been a traveling star attraction. 😃

[dedhemingway]

One big unknown for me would be how present-day California would fit into all this. A Lucha Underground style company based out of LA, coupled with a Bay Area group of would-be MMA guys? A New Japan LA Dojo using NJ’s current gaijin, Uriah Faber types, and various ROH/PWG/Evolve guys? Something owned by the Shamrocks? A pro wrestling group built around AKA guys like Daniel Cormier, Cain Velasquez, Fitch, Arlovski, Penn, Lashley and Rumble Johnson?

 

If whoever ran the LA territory was able to keep his finger somewhat on the pulse, I think it would have thrived. Even in lean times, you could lean on bringing in some luchadores to draw, and SoCal had a very solid generation of talent that started up in the late 90s/early 2000s, with Super Dragon, Samoa Joe, the other PWG guys. I don't know John Cena would get affected, but he kinda broke in out here. Same with Miz.

 

I think that, in the end, you end up with a product built around smaller guys that can mix with the lucha style, like a larger Rev Pro/PWG style. Basically, what the SoCal scene is now, but on a bigger stage.

 

I think guys like Kaos (from XPW), Super Dragon, Joey Ryan, Samoa Joe would all end up being bigger stars than they were in real life. Tag team scene with Aerial Express (Scorpio Sky and Quicksilver), RockNES Monsters, Chris Bosh/Scott Lost, and more? Sign me up. Another guy who might have broken out, barring injury, would have been Human Tornado, he was really charismatic.

 

Of course, in the 80s, it could have gotten stuck as a 'big man' mini-New York, thanks to Hollywood and TV. If it didn't, though, it would have been cool to see a 'lucharesu' territory on a big stage.

[cm funk]

Hogan would have spent a lot more time in Japan, to the point where that would be considered his home territory. He has an unprecedented reign with the IWGP title. With the talent sharing arrangement with the WWF he'd come to New York a few times a year for short runs, but I don't see him taking a lot of bookings outside of those offices. Hogan never would have gone back to Florida as someone suggested, because he hated Matsuda, and after tasting success in Japan and New York it would be too small time for him. But without Rocky 2, cable TV, national expansion, WM etc. Hulkamania never truly runs wild in the states

[overbooked]

My first thought was that a lot of workers might have stayed healthier/alive a lot longer. The steroid look might not have become so popular, at least not everywhere. While some territories obviously had punishing schedules, they wouldn't have necessarily been as punishing as some of the national ones we see in the 80s/90s. So, there might have been less painkiller abuse, uppers/downers etc to cope. Perhaps optimistic, but there you go.

 

I guess some guys would have stayed fresher for moving around territories. I wonder if Vader might have had a lot more US success if he was the travelling monster heel in the 1990s. Would The Undertaker have just kept to his original look and shtick rather than becoming Bikertaker etc? The Big Show seems an obvious Andre 2.0 attraction. I could see The Rock as one of those guys who mainly stays in one territory but does odd shots as a special guest attraction across the country.

 

I'm presuming that we'd have far fewer world champions too. I could imagine Bret Hart as a steady travelling champ and Angle getting the nod because of the amateur background and his strong personality/promos.

 

Additional question: considering there would be so many more booking jobs, which wrestlers would have transitioned into becoming bookers?

[JerryvonKramer]

Since Sid started in the Territories and in his own way always was a traveling guy, even during the Late nineties into early 2000 boom...I'd imagine he'd had been just fine.

And Les Thornton? Are you high ? No one gave a shit about him, number one. And where was he a "traveling " NWA jr champ? Traveling from his trailer to fairgrounds to Waffle House and back to his trailer ? Scorpio would have been a traveling star attraction.

Would you rather I said Danny Hodge? The Junior champ did get bookings all over, and I've heard a few guys mention Thornton coming in and doing good. I guess Scorpio could have been like a Carpentier type, but we're assuming he works the same style he did in his actual career.

 

And don't tell me, you like Sid and think he's awesome? Where do you see him working?

[Grimmas]

Parv about Bret, I think he and Owen could had been the new Terry & Dory.

[overbooked]

Sid finds the territory with the least travel and the best softball league.

[JerryvonKramer]

Two reasons I don't see Bret as champ are 1) because Stu didn't have that sort of stroke in the NWA and 2) he was primarily an offensive worker and they'd have been looking for a Harley / Flair type who could sell and sell.

 

I don't see Bret overcoming both barriers.

 

Champ after Flair is probably Windham. I can even see Pillman ahead of Bret.

[shoe]

I think Tracy Smothers would have been an important player if the territories were in tact . A solid promo, could work heel or face, tags or singles . He easily could have been the most versatile.

[Johnny Guitar]

Two reasons I don't see Bret as champ are 1) because Stu didn't have that sort of stroke in the NWA and 2) he was primarily an offensive worker and they'd have been looking for a Harley / Flair type who could sell and sell.

 

I don't see Bret overcoming both barriers.

 

Champ after Flair is probably Windham. I can even see Pillman ahead of Bret.

 

 

I could see Windham being champ between 1988 - 1991. But things that stopped him being a proper main eventer in reality. Mainly his lack of desire, regardless of of his natural ability, would hamper him when it came time for the board vote.

 

Bret may of had a chance. He pretty much played NWA champ during his main event run from 92 to 97. And whilst Stu didn't really have alot of stroke, Bret would have had the support of Harley and The Funks, which would go along way.

 

Pillman was awesome and should have been a main eventer. But he worked best as underdog babyface or psychotic heel, neither which were suited for World champ in the territories.

[thebrainfollower]

Yeah Barry was not hurt or held back by the death of the territories. He was held back by himself and fully admits as such. His career is no different.

[JerryvonKramer]

I am sure Pillman could have adapted his style to work as NWA champ. He had the tools.

 

Whoever became NWA champ post-Flair would have also had to have had Flair's blessing too, which is a box Windham ticks. Barry would have had support from Crockett and Florida offices -- and The Funks went back with his old man too.

 

 

 

 

Bret may of had a chance. He pretty much played NWA champ during his main event run from 92 to 97.

 

Do you think he played NWA champ or did he play Bob Backlund?

[Al]

I can't imagine a better candidate for NWA champion than Stunning Steve Austin by 1995-96, honestly.

[thebrainfollower]

He did not play Bob Backlund Parv, though he did play a face until 97. Except for maybe people like Kwang or a Heavenly Body, who the world champ SHOULD be eating alive, he gave way more than half the match to everyone he faced.

 

I'd say he was more in the mold of 88 Randy Savage.