Trish Stratus

[Grimmas]

Discuss here.

[Timbo Slice]

Nope. I know why she was nominated, but even her best stuff doesn't touch the other female nominees. In an era where modern wrestling gets shit on more for not being better than stuff from the past, Trish is getting smoked by the NXT women right now and none of them are gonna make my ballot.

[thebrainfollower]

I view her as the North American GOAT for women so yes she's on my list.

Is she better in ring than Sasha, Molly Holly or Bayley? Nope but in ring skill is only part of the package.

Fundamentally I am putting her in because of how hard she worked. She came in pretty clueless as to how to work and a god awful promo. She was clearly hired for just her look as a Pamela Anderson type and could have coasted on her beauty like Torrie and Stacy did for years.

But Trish is a wrestling fan and worked very hard in her six and a half year career to become the most over heel in WWE in 2004, a very good worker who could find a way to make people of vastly different talents look decent (she has a Heat match in 04 with Nidia that demonstrates this very well and actually shows far more smarts than Ric Flair in understanding how much to give people lower on the totem pole) and an excellent promo (her heel stuff against Jericho and Lita)

 

Fans cared more about women's wrestling during her runs (and I credit Lita with a lot of this too) than at any point since maybe Wendy Richter for a very brief time and any point thereafter certainly. No she's not a Japanese women's style worker by any means but as an overall talent she belongs in.

 

Also she came in when the sort of stuff the NXT women are doing was NOT what WWE wanted from its women at all. I'm not saying she could or could not have adapted but was not in an era where judging that makes sense.

 

She's in my bottom 10 for sure

[Jingus]

It's a little depressing to think of how much better Trish could've been if she hadn't been so stifled by the WWE Diva Style. She was wrestling the same dozen opponents over and over again for her entire career, in matches which usually went less than five minutes, in a division which was largely ignored and denigrated by the overall company as a barely-tolerated sideshow. The fact that she reached the level of quality she did (I'm not sure her bout with Mickie James wasn't MOTN for Mania 22) is an astounding tribute to how much talent she had and how hard she was willing to work.

[thebrainfollower]

I also think the triple threat at WM XIX is the third best match that night and being behind Michaels-Jericho and Angle-Lesnar is nothing to cry home about. The fact that she put together something that isn't one of the worst matches ever against a Christy Hemme on her 2nd match and with a dislocated shoulder is amazing too.

[Loss]

I hope she doesn't work "stratusfaction" into real-life conversations. On second thought, I hope she does.

[Yo-Yo's Roomie]

I give Trish lots of credit for working hard, taking her craft seriously, improving a shit tonne, and for being an underrated bump freak (seriously, when you think of 2000s diva who takes needlessly reckless bumps you probably think Lita, but Trish was a gamer too). But, realistically, if Molly was given the push and focus Trish was she'd have had just as many, if not more, good matches. There's probably other girls from the era you could say the same about too.

[concrete1992]

Not entirely sure how I feel about putting Trish Stratus on a ballet in part because of her promo work...

 

Though is second the hope that she throws in "stratisfaction" into everyday jargon.

[Loss]

The issue with any American woman on the ballot in my mind is that Japan had such a deep talent pool of women who were good or great workers for a long time. So I'm willing to hear the case, but let's compare Trish to Aja Kong, Akira Hokuto, Manami Toyota, Chigusa Nagayo and others. If that seems unfair, let's compare Trish to Judy Martin, Leilani Kai, Sherri Martel, Wendi Richter and Madusa. I'm not completely sure she trumps any of them, or if she just benefits from being decent in a time period where the division was presented with Sable and Debra as the ideal.

[Jingus]

She was working with so many more handicaps than all of those women that it's tough to compare them. Trish never wrestled a single match outside of the WWE. Her entire career only lasted six years (not counting the two cameo comebacks). She didn't go through developmental or any kind of training academy, she was trained on the road while she was already working shows. In comparison, all the other women Loss mentioned had proper training, worked many more years, and travelled to a much wider variety of different promotions.

 

Most telling of all is simply how few opponents she had. I just went through Trish's entire Cagematch.net resume (it took forever) and counted up every single woman she ever stepped foot in the ring with. (And no, I'm not counting her three-week comebacks in recent years where she'd have two matches with a whole new roster of girls.) You know how many women, from 2000 to 2006, that she ever wrestled? Twenty. That's it. Her entire career consisted of literally wrestling the same twenty people, over and over again. (And according to Cagematch, the VAST majority of those matches went under five minutes.) And even "twenty" is really an inflated number, considering that the list includes such ringers as Jackie Gayda, Terri Runnels, Stacey Keibler, Christy Hemme, Stephanie McMahon, Torrie Wilson, Ashley Massaro, and "that one time Trish and Jillian Hall happened to be in a battle royale together".

 

You can count on one hand the number of women she feuded with who actually had more in-ring experience than Trish did. And everyone knows that you're not supposed to be able to learn much by endlessly wrestling the same rookies over and over again (which is a serious problem affecting talent quality in today's industry). But still, Trish DID get better; despite never being properly trained in the first place, despite having a relatively small amount of ring time with an objectively tiny number of opponents, despite being employed by people who never gave much of a shit about women's wrestling to begin with. The fact that Trish improved to the level she did is an unprecedented miracle.

[thebrainfollower]

Having met her, I think it's more of a very fierce determination to be the best at what she did as much as its a miracle. When she's smart enough to be able to talk for 3 minutes on why her style of offense, match pace and body type made the Rock style spinebuster more logical than the Arn one, I got the sense of someone who really cared.

 

I think Trish works rings around Richter, Martin, Kai etc. I find 80's WWF Women's wrestling absolutely awful except for the JBA. In ring I also think she's better than Sherri Martel though Sherri was the superior heel manager. And I think Madusa is horribly overrated unless she's against the very Japanese women mentioned that Trish never had a chance to work with.

 

I'd defend her more but Jingus is presenting a more amazing case than I ever could.

[Childs]

She was working with so many more handicaps than all of those women that it's tough to compare them. Trish never wrestled a single match outside of the WWE. Her entire career only lasted six years (not counting the two cameo comebacks). She didn't go through developmental or any kind of training academy, she was trained on the road while she was already working shows. In comparison, all the other women Loss mentioned had proper training, worked many more years, and travelled to a much wider variety of different promotions.

 

Most telling of all is simply how few opponents she had. I just went through Trish's entire Cagematch.net resume (it took forever) and counted up every single woman she ever stepped foot in the ring with. (And no, I'm not counting her three-week comebacks in recent years where she'd have two matches with a whole new roster of girls.) You know how many women, from 2000 to 2006, that she ever wrestled? Twenty. That's it. Her entire career consisted of literally wrestling the same twenty people, over and over again. (And according to Cagematch, the VAST majority of those matches went under five minutes.) And even "twenty" is really an inflated number, considering that the list includes such ringers as Jackie Gayda, Terri Runnels, Stacey Keibler, Christy Hemme, Stephanie McMahon, Torrie Wilson, Ashley Massaro, and "that one time Trish and Jillian Hall happened to be in a battle royale together".

 

You can count on one hand the number of women she feuded with who actually had more in-ring experience than Trish did. And everyone knows that you're not supposed to be able to learn much by endlessly wrestling the same rookies over and over again (which is a serious problem affecting talent quality in today's industry). But still, Trish DID get better; despite never being properly trained in the first place, despite having a relatively small amount of ring time with an objectively tiny number of opponents, despite being employed by people who never gave much of a shit about women's wrestling to begin with. The fact that Trish improved to the level she did is an unprecedented miracle.

All of that sounds like a wonderful argument for why Trish was an admirable figure. None of it speaks to why she might be considered one of the 100 best ever unless you're determined to stick a U.S. woman on your list.

[Matt D]

The word "handicap" tends to be a very tricky thing in this process.

[InYourCase]

I cant fathom an argument for Trish as one of the 100 best wrestlers ever. People on my bubble like Sasuke, TAKA, and Steve Williams blow Trish out of the water. Not even close to being in consideration.

[Jingus]

unless you're determined to stick a U.S. woman on your list.

Why not? My ballot's gonna have several women, a few of them even (gasp!) not Japanese.

[Loss]

How does Trish stand out from Nattie Neidhart, AJ Lee or Brie Bella?

[Childs]

Why not isn't an argument. You and brainfollower have laid out an excellent case for how shitty women's wrestling in this country has been. When there have been so many sources of great wrestling over the years, why reach to reward a well that just hasn't produced much outstanding work?

[thebrainfollower]

Oh please Loss.

 

How about got fans to care about her, her character and women's wrestling? Was an AMAZING heel in 2004, easily one of the best if not THE best in WWE at the time, running rings around HHH on how to be a proper heel.

 

Nattie has had a few good matches and one great one but never been able to cut a promo to save her life, be a good heel or face or get fans to care about her. Brie Bella's a disaster. Trish vs. AJ is more of a valid comparison but AJ seemed to actively hurt the entire division with how she was booked and dealt with her opponents whereas Trish's run is regarded as the golden age of women's wrestling in the WWF for a good reason. Were the matches the best? No technically they were not. But fans cared more about it than at any other time. It's NOT all about just matches and in ring work for some people. It's why someone like Hogan is a lock for my top 20 and he won't make others top 100. It's just a matter of what matters, different for different people.

 

If you'd actually care to watch a bunch of her matches and promos and analyze them with me that's fine. Otherwise I think (having rewatched every televised match she had last year) I know a LOT more about this stuff than you do.

 

Please state the quote of mine Childs where I lay out how shitty NA women's wrestling has ALWAYS been. I said and I do think that 80's women's wrestling in the US was terrible. I think it got much better with the AJW influences in the 90's but I actually think it was never better in the US before Trish than during her peak. That's in the US with US workers remember not Madusa wrestling women Trish and her colleagues never did.

 

And yes in ring is better now. But Trish is a better promo and character than any of the divas revolution women other than MAYBE Sasha. She's still the WWF women's GOAT by a LONG mile (4 great matches in 2 years is not enough to surpass her for me, if it is for you cool, that's a different opinon) in my opinion and therefore warrants a place on MY list.

 

If she doesn't on yours cool. I am sure it will be no big deal when my list leaves off some people's personal likes either.

[WingedEagle]

I always enjoyed Trish as a change of pace and for putting on some passable matches. Not sure I can think of a single great one though, much less many above average if we're looking at a standard other than WWE Diva's division of that era.

[thebrainfollower]

I think that's fair WE. I am not sure I can think of a 5 star Hogan match either and he's in my top 20. Depends on what influences your vote.

 

Really good ones inc Stephanie at NWO, Lita 2004 Raw and last match, 2002 Victoria No Mercy, 2002 both PPV matches with Molly, all her stuff with Mickie on PPV. Her best stuff is probably only in the 3.5 stars range I agree.

[DMJ]

How does Trish stand out from Nattie Neidhart, AJ Lee or Brie Bella?

 

I wouldn't put Trish in my Top 100, but she'd certainly rank higher than any of those three by at least a 100 spots.

 

Not a single one has a match as good as Trish/Mickie from WM22. Or as good as Trish/Jazz/Victoria from WrestleMania 19. Or probably even as good as Trish/Stephanie from 2001(?).

 

Again, Trish is not a Top 100 worker to me, but to call her "average" is ridiculous when one has to search pretty deep into the well to find a women's match in the WWE between 1999 and 2014 that was really good and didn't involve Trish Stratus. The pool might've been shallow, the opportunities might've not been there for a Molly Holly or a Gail Kim to show all they could do, but that doesn't change the fact that Stratus anchored the division for the better part of a decade and that only in the past two years have we seen anyone even challenge that level of consistent overness and quality. Averaging 1.5-star matches when your peers are averaging .25-star matches is the definition of being above-average.

[Childs]

 

If you'd actually care to watch a bunch of her matches and promos and analyze them with me that's fine. Otherwise I think (having rewatched every televised match she had last year) I know a LOT more about this stuff than you do.

 

Please state the quote of mine Childs where I lay out how shitty NA women's wrestling has ALWAYS been. I said and I do think that 80's women's wrestling in the US was terrible. I think it got much better with the AJW influences in the 90's but I actually think it was never better in the US before Trish than during her peak. That's in the US with US workers remember not Madusa wrestling women Trish and her colleagues never did.

 

 

You said how lousy it was in the '80s. Then Jingus followed with a post, glowingly endorsed by you, in which he described how thin a talent pool surrounded Trish. And yet you say Trish is the greatest North American female of all time. It's hard to read those posts and not infer that women's wrestling in this country has been shitty. I mean for fuck's sake, you're saying the GOAT North American woman topped out at 3.5-star matches.

 

If that strikes you as a bang-up resume for one of the 100 best ever, that's fine. But it strikes me as an incredibly thin case, especially given the brevity of Trish's career.

[Loss]

Oh please Loss.

 

For the record, I wasn't trying to provoke you by asking that question. I was just interested in understanding more about her case and how you see her in comparison to anyone who could reasonably be compared to her. I agree that Trish was a character people cared about during a popular period for wrestling.

[thebrainfollower]

You're still not getting the basic fact that it's what Trish accomplished what she did in that environment that warrants her inclusion in my opinion. You think it's a thin case, I think it's a good case. Just different opinions.

 

As for it being a thin talent pool, yes it was. COMPARED TO AN ENTIRE COMPANY In Japan, something that covered about 15% of a company's TV time would probably have a thin talent pool.

 

Also the fact that it came from such a lousy heritage like Moolah.

 

Looking at ratings I did give Trish-Mickie and the Raw main event with Lita 4 stars FWIW.

[Loss]

I'm also not convinced of the historical shittiness of U.S. women's wrestling. I mean, sure, it's probably the case, but I suspect the biggest change is the improved presentation. NWA Classics has Debbie Combs vs Donna Day in a terrific match. Not a very good match on a curve, but an actual very good match by any standard, one even more impressive because they were able to stop the catcalls and build a nice reaction. I wish we had more long matches from wrestlers like Debbie Combs -- it might reflect well, it might not. But I can say I don't *recall* (not that they don't exist, I just don't recall) any matches where Trish worked the mat like they did, or flipped the crowd like they did. And I see something like an old Alundra Blayze vs Bull Nakano match which blew away your average Trish match in terms of wrestling skill on display and had comparable heat to something like the Trish-Victoria Chicago Street Fight match.