Homicide

[Grimmas]

Discuss here.

[Timbo Slice]

Is he one of the guys where TNA actually helped him out a bit? I know people loved him in ROH because his fireball angle at Reborn jumpstarted the post-RF era, but I really liked him in LAX and when he got an opportunity to shine, he really went with it.

 

I don't think I'll have him on my list, but he's one of those guys that some of the newer fans will probably push hard for.

[Dylan Waco]

I think TNA hurts him overall because it killed his aura as a badass. Despite being a really small guy if you watch him in ROH he comes across a legit asskicker of the highest order, the kind of motherfucker that would kill you over a parking space. Part of this was that he had an insane finish, but a lot of it was just the way he carried himself. He had great matches during that run, and his role at the CZW/ROH Cage of Death is maybe my favorite "playing their character" performance in U.S. indie wrestling history. There is no question that LAX had some good matches, and I think they were a good team. But I don't think they were a great team, and when LAX fizzled out it pretty much killed the last vestiges of the Homicide that had been so unique on the indies.

[Timbo Slice]

Makes sense. He did get presented in TNA as a guy you didn't want to mess with, but when Hernandez got added he really did just play your generic little guy with the big guy muscle behind him.

 

I also haven't really gone back and looked at what he's done in a while to warrant a hard case, just recollection, but he seems like someone that was really hot at a time when indy wrestling was at its hottest and stood out amongst the rest.

[Dylan Waco]

If ROH Homicide had a five or six year run at that clip, with that vibe to him, he'd have a shot at the lower portion of my ballot.

[Johnny Sorrow]

Dylan hit it right on the head regarding Homicide's presence back in mid 2000's ROH and JAPW. There was a lot of great talent running around back then but only a few seemed "complete". Homicide was one of them. I'm a huge fan.

I also got shitfaced with him after an ROH show and he was wearing khakis and a pink polo shirt. So I love the guy on a few levels. 😃

[pol]

Talk about killing his aura as a badass

[Badlittlekitten]

I've only seen his early ROH tag work but he already felt like a standout (along with Danielson, Ki and Doug Williams) for his brawls but mostly presence alone. Would love to see more of his work.

 

What are his best matches? TNA in particular as they'll be easy to find online.

[JRGoldman]

I can't really speak to his TNA stuff as I haven't seen a lot of it, but I can put together a good list for his work in ROH:

 

vs. Corino 8/16/03 (Bitter Friends, Stiffer Enemies)

 

vs. Joe 4/23/04 (Reborn)

 

w/ Low Ki vs. Joe and Lethal 5/7/05 (Manhattan Mayhem)

 

vs. Necro Butcher 5/13/06 (Ring of Homicide)

 

The ROH/CZW Cage of Death 7/15/06

 

vs. Danielson (Final Battle 06)

 

I think that the Reborn match and all of Manhattan Mayhem show how important Cide was for ROH during this period, because of his aura. He was reliably the person that they could build overarching angles with beyond "dream match" stuff which was still a major part of ROH during the 03-06 time frame. You see this at it's peak later as well with the Cage of Death and chase for the title, which I think are still the closest ROH has come to a spectacle type atmosphere that you find at Mania and the like. There is a bunch of other good Homicide stuff, like him dragging a useless Colt Cabana to two solid garbage matches, the best of five series with Danielson, and a ton of really fun tags with Joe and with the Rottweilers. I think watching that gives a solid idea of Homicide as a day to day worker during this time frame, but I have presented some of his peaks for the company. I think it's interesting that during this period, Homicide never held a title (until the transitional reign in early 06-07) and I think it speaks to the fact that he made things seem really important without having to fight for a prize.

[Wade Garrett]

He won't make my list. But I'll be damned if I wouldn't of rather seen Homicide in Carlitos role vs. Cena.

[JRGoldman]

So I read Dylan's comments about from the Jimmy Rave thread in which he said he thinks Rave was the only ROH worker who was actually a heel as opposed to someone just playing a heel. While I am a huge fan of Rave and his ROH run, I wanted to bump this thread because I think Homicide stands head and shoulders above basically anyone else in terms of being a defined heel character and using that aura to create and manipulate an atmosphere with the live crowd at ROH shows. I actually think the run he had and the dichotomy between his reactions in NY and his reactions everywhere else are almost the 2000s Indy equivalent of Bret in Canada. I referenced a bunch of matches above that I think paint a pretty solid picture of Homicide as a worker during this period. In fact, I think the matches from 03-06 are so good that you could make a case that he has a better ROH resume than Joe. I think the highs are more even than you would think (Cage of Death and the Danielson Title Change vs. the Kobashi Match and a few others are in Joe's favor but it's not a blowout) and I think that Homicide was more interesting week to week. I don't want to punish Joe for having a title, but I felt like when he didn't have the World Title (or even the Pure title) he had a tendency to flounder, while Cide was thoroughly interesting and over no matter what the program.

 

I know Dylan in his post about Rave said that being a top 10 ROH guy is not enough to get on the ballot, and he has already written here that he feels the work in TNA is a detraction to his resume (which I don't agree with necessarily, but I can see why he would say that). I just wanted to bump the thread of a worker that probably deserves to be looked at a little harder, as his US Indy resume is pretty stellar, and he continued to be a good week to week worker in LAX. I would say that in a way Homicide being able to have a good run after his "aura had been destroyed" is a point in his favor, because there are many other wrestlers that are unable to function if they aren't booked in a very specific way. Homicide is on a short list of modern Indy guys who can convincingly be a top face (avenging hero in the ROH/CZW feud) or a top heel and stable leader (Rottweilers) a mid card tag act that is consistently more over than their push (LAX) or just filler in random midcard four ways and whatnot. That's a credit to him understanding wrestling as a whole and not just his character.

[Parties]

Would strongly disagree with the idea that this guy ever came off as a legit badass. He's one of the few workers in history where I'd say his size really hurt him. By no means am I suggesting that you can't be scary-as-hell and still be five and a half feet tall, but I thought he truly came off as non-threatening. Seeing him live for the first time I just remember thinking, "Really?" It was deflating in that he became the great and powerful Oz, where you realized he didn't hit that hard and had the body of a skinny-fat teenager. His prime coming in mid-2000s ROH hurt in that he would have thrived in a more kayfabed environment - and did if you can call JAPW one. It's hard to come off as tough after the crowd's just watched the Ring Crew Express and Cabana. He should have been a contrast to the smark insider goofiness and instead he felt less credible because of it. Julius Smokes you could buy as legitimately crazy. I never had the same reaction to Homicide, and stuff like pouring bleach down Cabana's throat felt more absurd/anachronistic than violent. But to his credit, Gabe pushed him to the moon and I doubt most folks in the crowd had the same reaction to him that I did.

 

His finest hour might have been the Corino feud? Thought their barbed wire match was actually quite good by barbed wire match standards.

 

While these threads are a fine way to just talk about the pluses and minuses of certain people - he wouldn't make a top 300 for me. Maybe not even a top 500. I was never a fan and he was badly exposed the longer his career went.

[Childs]

I'm not a huge Homicide fan, but I do think the ROH crowd bought him as a top guy with a badass aura. Think about the reaction to him as the company savior in the CZW feud. You can't fake that.

[El Dragon]

Another mid 2000’s Indy peak guy that I think deserves another look. Homicide still works, but it feels like he’s really in the downslope at this time. But he still feels like a really intriguing guy for due to his RoH run, and had strong performances with multiple guys. I doubt he gets any headway, just wanted to push his name forward a bit to see if there is anything worth going out of my way to see recently.

[Clayton Jones]

I think his team with Kingston is worth digging into. I loved their match VS Doom Patrol in Beyond.

I'm looking forward to having motivation to looking closer at TNA and JAPW  Homicide as well. He'd likely make my ballot just based on his ROH career so when I get to Cide it'll really be about filling in the gaps for me.

[Clayton Jones]

Seemed like a timely candidate to run through some matches. I'll make sure to sit down with the Suzuki match next time around.

VS Low Ki - 3PW 2/15/2003

Very good match and a great job by Homicide bringing the structure, slowing down the pace when it needed it, and keeping Ki contained so his offensive bursts were that much more impressive. For a match of this style in early 2003 this was way ahead of the curve.

VS Amazing Red - TNA Turning Point 2009

This is an excellent match to showcase what an underrated base Homicide is. Also a pretty damn good Don West performance in the Percy Pringle/Eric Embry role. Cide and Red should have great chemistry and they do, with only a few of Red's typical miscues. Cide comes off like a violent sociopath always pushing the action and harassing the ref.

w/Hernandez VS Santana/Ortiz - Impact Slammiversary 7/22/2018

For a match with a lot of plunder I never thought this spent too much time setting up its spots except for maybe when Konnan brought the thumbtacks into the equation. But I liked the element that brought to the match so I'll allow it. I watched this to catch up on some Homicide but everyone in this match brought it. Great out of control brawl with big spots that never feel like they're the focus over the struggle. Overall I loved this match and would gladly watch it again. Excellent violent exciting stuff here.

VS Nick Gage - VxS 4/28/2019

Some of the elements here were good, like the opening brawling and Cide grinding Gage down and keeping the heat on him. Some of this felt a little mailed in from both guys though which I kind of expected from this match in 2019 in a promotion I've never heard of. Finishing stretch included some sloppy roll ups and Cide shoehorning in a low blow. This was decent enough and was probably good fun live.

[Phil Schneider]

I rewatched the Corino barbed wire match for my Ringer article, and it was an incredible Homicide performance, he is one of the best guys at really portraying unhinged insanity in a ring. Put him in with Corino or Teddy Hart he feels like he would be thrilled to see them dead. Workrate Homicide I can take or leave, but guy jabbing a fork in Corino's ear, that is a guy

[CheapPop1999]

On 6/3/2015 at 2:37 PM, JRGoldman said:

I can't really speak to his TNA stuff as I haven't seen a lot of it, but I can put together a good list for his work in ROH:

 

vs. Corino 8/16/03 (Bitter Friends, Stiffer Enemies)

 

vs. Joe 4/23/04 (Reborn)

 

w/ Low Ki vs. Joe and Lethal 5/7/05 (Manhattan Mayhem)

 

vs. Necro Butcher 5/13/06 (Ring of Homicide)

 

The ROH/CZW Cage of Death 7/15/06

 

vs. Danielson (Final Battle 06)

 

I think that the Reborn match and all of Manhattan Mayhem show how important Cide was for ROH during this period, because of his aura. He was reliably the person that they could build overarching angles with beyond "dream match" stuff which was still a major part of ROH during the 03-06 time frame. You see this at it's peak later as well with the Cage of Death and chase for the title, which I think are still the closest ROH has come to a spectacle type atmosphere that you find at Mania and the like. There is a bunch of other good Homicide stuff, like him dragging a useless Colt Cabana to two solid garbage matches, the best of five series with Danielson, and a ton of really fun tags with Joe and with the Rottweilers. I think watching that gives a solid idea of Homicide as a day to day worker during this time frame, but I have presented some of his peaks for the company. I think it's interesting that during this period, Homicide never held a title (until the transitional reign in early 06-07) and I think it speaks to the fact that he made things seem really important without having to fight for a prize.

Working through this list tonight. Really loved the Corino match, I felt like it was a really nice blend of a lot of different match structures; it was a great double juice territory brawl with some creative weapon work and a couple of nasty cutoffs, but it had enough of that Homicide/ROH strong style to still fit in that realm. The Homicide tope into the guardrail was one of the more brutal versions of that spot I've seen and felt legitimately like something that would knock a guy out of a match, but also felt valiant in a very Santito way. Match was a little bit long in the tooth with the kickouts though.

The Joe match was a lot more muddled for me, although it was a dynamic performance from Homicide. Joe seemed a little bit less threatening than I would have anticipated or liked and the finish was really campy in a way that took away a lot of the credibility.

[CheapPop1999]

Necro match was far more my speed, and showed another really fascinating look at how talented Homicide is in the fusion settings. The match felt like a heated studio brawl crossed with an ECW-style angle-driven match that still got a bit too ROH for me by the end but maintained a pretty solid sense of heat throughout. I like Homicide as a Puerto Rican Funk at his best, and it's a shame that he doesn't just do that all the time.