Russellmania Posted August 20, 2015 Report Share Posted August 20, 2015 A lot of people blame booking for Ziggler's inability to get to that next level, but IMO the problem is with Ziggler. I think whenever they consider giving him that last little bit of a push that he needs they end up backing off either because he gets injured or because they realize that he's not really a strong enough talker or presence to be a top guy. WWE really doesn't like to push guys based solely on ring-work and IMO that's all Ziggler really has going for him. He puts on a good show and that's why the fans will always be there for him, but I think he's missing that extra something that a main event guy needs. Going back to the Punk example...a massive difference between Punk and Ziggler is that Punk could cut a promo that would draw money and Ziggler has never shown that he can. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted August 20, 2015 Report Share Posted August 20, 2015 My gut says you're right, but here's I guess where I differ from WWE. When someone has that much fan support, they at least deserve an opportunity to sink or swim in a top role. I'm not saying Dolph would be a runaway success as a long-term headliner, but he should have received the opportunity with a real championship run at some point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted August 20, 2015 Report Share Posted August 20, 2015 The problem with Ziggler is that he looks like Billy Gunn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted August 20, 2015 Report Share Posted August 20, 2015 I'm not a fan of the "He's too " stuff with wrestlers who are already over. It happens in WWE and sometimes fans do it too. If someone is over, it doesn't so much matter why they are over because they've already proven they can overcome all the on-paper things that act as a would-be checklist for what a top guy should be. If someone consistently gets big pops, they should be protected and get a real chance to succeed or fail in main events. Either the fans take to it or they don't, but at least that wrestler's potential has been maximized and now we know what their ceiling is. I know Dave always talks about the companies who chase the pop often going out of business, but is WWE really going to go out of business if they give guys like Ziggler an honest chance on top? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quentin Skinner Posted August 20, 2015 Report Share Posted August 20, 2015 Ziggler to me is a guy that kinda got bad luck with getting injured after his MITB cash in which is what I guess was going to be his test reign. He was getting very good reactions even before turning face in 2013. He's a guy the fans obviously wanted to see him doing more and a lot fans still do care about the guy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted August 20, 2015 Report Share Posted August 20, 2015 Re; Ziggler: He might go off to be a successful comedian and not need the WWE and leave instead of getting fired and then Vince will cry a single tear. Better to not make money than that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parties Posted August 20, 2015 Report Share Posted August 20, 2015 The biggest issue with that Survivior Series wasn't even so much that Ziggler isn't main event talent who could capitalize on the moment (his recent mic work has suggested he's not on that level, though I agree with Loss that he deserved a fair chance), but that they erased the moment a month later, via Cena reinstating the Authority in a horrible angle. Probably my least favorite RAW segment of the last few years, and I bring it up here way too often, but wow. So bad. And while I agree with the larger point about Vince's paranoia, let's be honest: there's zero threat of Ziggler becoming a successful comedian. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted August 20, 2015 Report Share Posted August 20, 2015 I love it when Vince criticizes his roster for their fear of failure. Is anyone more terrified of failure when making talent decisions? Then again, he's willing to cannibalize pay-per-view but gets cold feet about pushing new stars. His mind is an interesting one. I think at the end of the day, his biggest fear is that his moral view of what fans want to see in their main eventers is proven wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chief Posted August 20, 2015 Report Share Posted August 20, 2015 The biggest issue with that Survivior Series wasn't even so much that Ziggler isn't main event talent who could capitalize on the moment (his recent mic work has suggested he's not on that level, though I agree with Loss that he deserved a fair chance), but that they erased the moment a month later, via Cena reinstating the Authority in a horrible angle. Probably my least favorite RAW segment of the last few years, and I bring it up here way too often, but wow. So bad. And while I agree with the larger point about Vince's paranoia, let's be honest: there's zero threat of Ziggler becoming a successful comedian. Ziggler did not win that match. Sting did. That killed the angle off even before Cena brought them back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted August 20, 2015 Report Share Posted August 20, 2015 There was a huge amount of interest from Sting's appearance and I think a big rating the next night. That they didn't more actively follow up the next night was the issue. I still firmly believe they should have run Sting/Cena at Mania with Sting going after Cena as sort of a force of justice (in his 1997 mystery role) for him failing and allowing the Authority back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quentin Skinner Posted August 20, 2015 Report Share Posted August 20, 2015 The biggest issue with that Survivior Series wasn't even so much that Ziggler isn't main event talent who could capitalize on the moment (his recent mic work has suggested he's not on that level, though I agree with Loss that he deserved a fair chance), but that they erased the moment a month later, via Cena reinstating the Authority in a horrible angle. Probably my least favorite RAW segment of the last few years, and I bring it up here way too often, but wow. So bad. And while I agree with the larger point about Vince's paranoia, let's be honest: there's zero threat of Ziggler becoming a successful comedian. Ziggler did not win that match. Sting did. That killed the angle off even before Cena brought them back. Sure but let's not forget the way Ziggler fought to survive down 3v1 and was pulling off a very valiant and emotional comeback that the crowd was invested in before HHH interference and all the shenanigans took place. I think making the whole thing about Sting and not even giving any credit to Ziggler's performance was more of the problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soup23 Posted August 20, 2015 Report Share Posted August 20, 2015 Regardless of what you think about Ziggler, the corners where I visit absolutely praised WWE for building him up at Survivor Series and then give a pass for his shuffling in the midcard. My current interest in WWE is lower than it has been since 2005 currently and I haven't watched a minute of Raw in months. This is because of the lack of investment. Look at the guys in the past year that were argued to be made: 1. Dean Ambrose - Big push with the Shield split, huge support of the fans. He now has become a prennial jobber. 2. Dolph Ziggler - Stop/Start constantly and now looking like mid-card is his perpetual ceiling 3. Rusev - Big win over Cena, nothing since 4. Owens - Big win over Cena, nothing since 5. Seth Rollins - Won undisputed title but has been made to look weak at every juncture. Feud with Cena does seem to be helping a bit but we will see how SummerSlam pays off. That is a list of five big time guys that they have gaffed with and didn't even include some debatable choices like Roman Reigns that absolutely were hindered by booking decisions and placement. Winning the big one isn't seen as a guy making it anymore. All of the above have big wins over Cena at times with the exception of Ambrose so obtaining victories doesn't matter either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted August 20, 2015 Report Share Posted August 20, 2015 The Ambrose thing just hurts because he was really taking off after Reigns' injury last summer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Posted August 20, 2015 Report Share Posted August 20, 2015 I'm not sure Ziggler would work on top. But people I know who are fans universally bitch about his push. I don't think it would hurt anything to try. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chief Posted August 20, 2015 Report Share Posted August 20, 2015 The biggest issue with that Survivior Series wasn't even so much that Ziggler isn't main event talent who could capitalize on the moment (his recent mic work has suggested he's not on that level, though I agree with Loss that he deserved a fair chance), but that they erased the moment a month later, via Cena reinstating the Authority in a horrible angle. Probably my least favorite RAW segment of the last few years, and I bring it up here way too often, but wow. So bad. And while I agree with the larger point about Vince's paranoia, let's be honest: there's zero threat of Ziggler becoming a successful comedian. Ziggler did not win that match. Sting did. That killed the angle off even before Cena brought them back. Sure but let's not forget the way Ziggler fought to survive down 3v1 and was pulling off a very valiant and emotional comeback that the crowd was invested in before HHH interference and all the shenanigans took place. I think making the whole thing about Sting and not even giving any credit to Ziggler's performance was more of the problem. Well yeah, that was kind of my point. In the moment, Ziggler looked like a hero. But it was not treated that way the next week on TV. They maybe mentioned it in passing on Raw the next night but that was it. HHH cut promos on Sting and never once mentioned Ziggler when he came back. You would think he'd want revenge on both guys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted August 20, 2015 Report Share Posted August 20, 2015 New Day on Jericho's podcast were funny talking about when Kofi put Orton through the table and then wasn't used at all the next week. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Posted August 20, 2015 Report Share Posted August 20, 2015 The Authority really kind of fucks up the progression as well. If you're a heel you can only get so far unless you're a stooge for them. If you're a face you have to be feuding with them as well. The current product really reminds me of late 1998 WCW. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quentin Skinner Posted August 20, 2015 Report Share Posted August 20, 2015 Another guy who at several times has seemed like he was going to be a solidified main event guy but has dealt with tons of bad booking and unfortunate injuries is Wade Barrett. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Posted August 20, 2015 Report Share Posted August 20, 2015 He seemed like he was building some real momentum when he came back in 2012 and then he started jobbing to Orton every week. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chief Posted August 20, 2015 Report Share Posted August 20, 2015 Feuding with Orton is the worst thing you can do if you're a mid-carder on the way up. He's cooled off a lot of guys who were at that Barrett level. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Posted August 20, 2015 Report Share Posted August 20, 2015 Feuding with Orton is the worst thing you can do period. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parties Posted August 20, 2015 Report Share Posted August 20, 2015 I was curious to look at the roster and see whose stock has fallen the lowest in 2015. I’d probably rank it as Ambrose at #1, Reigns at #2, and Barrett at #3.Ambrose: massively over guy who was getting biggest babyface reaction on shows and comparisons to Austin. Gets stuck in lousy feud with Barrett over stealing the IC title and duct taping opponent to ring post. Has sudden one month main event feud with Rollins where getting beers with Reigns was more important to him than winning the title. Now stuck in midcard mire while the internet chastises his weird moveset and selling.Reigns: got almost completely cooled off post-Mania as WWE enters its annual nine month long April-January holding pattern. Big Show feud was a mess, and I say that as a Big Show apologist. Better luck next year.Barrett: Has been booked like an impotent fool for years, but WWE used to be willing to have a few different scapegoats around who could spread around the embarrassing angles and losses (Swagger, Ziggler, Show, Cesaro, 3MB, Miz, etc.) Now it just seems like whenever they want to have some fun humiliating someone, it’s always Barrett. Every accolade he’s given is just a prop for opponents to wag in front of him like some dimestore cuckold. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimmas Posted August 20, 2015 Author Report Share Posted August 20, 2015 The Ambrose thing just hurts because he was really taking off after Reigns' injury last summer. His commentary on Raw was so refreshing. He should be the new hot star in the company and facing guys like Brock and Cena, but he's not even close and is essentially dead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chief Posted August 20, 2015 Report Share Posted August 20, 2015 At this stage I'm waiting for Gary Spivey to enter Barrett's life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badlittlekitten Posted August 20, 2015 Report Share Posted August 20, 2015 Ziggler is a guy that gets better reactions when he's on the chase, up against the odds. We saw this with his recent Int title run and even his world title run where he got nowhere near the same reaction not working as an underdog. After doing so well with him for so long they monumentally Fucked Up Reigns at the rumble. At the same time I've no doubt his cooling off was brought on by fans continuing to cry about his push. I love Ambrose but my gut tells me he's a guy that performs to his push. A company willing to take risks would have pulled the trigger on him last year when he was hot. It's a cheap way out but I really think a heel turn could do wonders for him. The company clearly see something in him and its laughable to suggest he's dead. The thing that hurts all this guys is ideas. Creative struggles to come up with them let alone come up with good ones. I'm certain Ryback, Regins, Ambrose etc could still be legit stars with enough effort and (as Loss has mentioned) self canonization. The way they utilize the part time guys is another thing that has hurt the roster in the long run. Actually, fuck 'em. Just give me a steady Titus push to the toppermost. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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