Rebuilding Roman Reigns

[LariatMMBOPPO]

 

The majority of fans have short term memories. A lot go hot and cold in terms of who and what they want.

Holy crap, Vince posts on PWO!

 

He's right though. When Charlotte lost that NXT exhibition match on RAW, people were crying about how they ruined her? Not a single person remembers or cares about that now. (And before anyone says it, just because you remember it doesn't mean jack shit.)

[sek69]

I remember a lot of folks saying her losing was dumb, I don't recall anyone claiming she was "ruined". That's not as easy to work into a narrative about whiny fans who won't accept what the company gives them I guess.

[Cap]

I used to really dislike Reigns. He bored me to no end, but I was really getting behind him going into Mania and through the big show. The biggest thing was that he was in matches that people believed he might lose with performers that could get the best out of him. Reigns vs Dragon and Reigns vs Brock were fantastic matches and Reigns pulled his weight in both, especially the Brock encounter. The biggest thing to turning him around is to put him in meaningful stories against guys that can help him show off. I honestly think Sheamus would be a good start. Sheamus calling Reigns out for not being a warrior (man) and then having a good stuff match with him could be fun. Then I would put him against Owens. An extended feud against Owens could do wonders for him. It could (and should) have a little of that Dragon vs Cena flavor - the "your not a real wrestler" vs the "I perform on the biggest stages" kind of trash talk. That made a lot of people come around to Cena and could help a lot come around to Reigns, especially since Owens is a god damned genius. Maybe after all that it is time and he is ready for another go at Brock.

 

I also think he really needs to let go of the sheild thing. He is like a crazy ex that wont take off the shirt that reminds him of the good times.

[Russellmania]

i'm a little embarrassed to admit how absolutely furious it makes me that even when Reigns and Ambrose are teaming together, Reigns gets the Shield entrance through the crowd while Ambrose (who is supposed to be the unstable one) just gets a normal entrance on the ramp with his own music. And they keep telling us these guys are like brothers...then why don't they come out together?

[LariatMMBOPPO]

I remember a lot of folks saying her losing was dumb, I don't recall anyone claiming she was "ruined". That's not as easy to work into a narrative about whiny fans who won't accept what the company gives them I guess.

LOL. I know you're considered one of the stupider folks on this board, but whatever. I think I'm burned out on this board and wrestling in general. This place has turned into DVDVR 2.0 lately with the non-stop complaining and awful topics:

 

http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/topic/31761-self-congratulatory-charity-work-in-wwe/

 

What the fuck? "But are most other big companies as obvious about their self-interested philanthropy?" That's being stuck in the wrestling bubble on a Meltzer-esque level if you seriously have to ask that.

 

Faggots.

[MoS]

^ A case of account hacking? Fair play if you want to be a douche, but why the need to be a homophobic douche?

[Ready_Willing_Gable]

^ A case of account hacking? Fair play if you want to be a douche, but why the need to be a homophobic douche?

Dramatic Effect

[JaymeFuture]

To me, the only way he's getting to the top organically at this point is to get over with promos. The megapush got vitriol, the good matches make no difference, he's got to verbally connect with people, and I think that's why the inclination for a lot of people is to go heel, because it's easier to capture people's imaginations with promos as a heel than it is as a babyface, especially a WWE babyface.

 

Can you imagine Austin or Rock getting over if Vince was personally scripting them the way he was with Roman?

[SomethingSavage]

I'd gladly tune in to hear The Rock run down his opponents to the tune of the Three Little Pigs and other Mother Goose nursery rhymes.

 

Don't know how well it'd work with Austin though. /-:

[NotJayTabb]

Wasn't there some industry event/show last year where Austin and Reigns were cutting unscripted promos on each other, and people were surprised that Roman was just as good as Austin was in that environment, as opposed to the infamous "suffering succertash" promo?

[Loss]

No reason to further engage this guy. I'm banning him.

[subatomic_elbow]

Maybe I'm naive, but I feel like 'Kicks ass and hangs out with Dean' Roman will get over in the long run. No heel turns for either, no gimmicks. Maybe change up his ring gear, make him look more like a person instead of a security guard? I find myself liking current Roman and wanting him to succeed.

[Ready_Willing_Gable]

To me, the only way he's getting to the top organically at this point is to get over with promos. The megapush got vitriol, the good matches make no difference, he's got to verbally connect with people, and I think that's why the inclination for a lot of people is to go heel, because it's easier to capture people's imaginations with promos as a heel than it is as a babyface, especially a WWE babyface.

 

Can you imagine Austin or Rock getting over if Vince was personally scripting them the way he was with Roman?

I agree with you mostly, but getting across on the mic has never managed to ease the Cena heat. If they have Roman what they're teasing he's going to be in future, 'those' fans won't ease on him whether he sounds like The Rock or what

[Loss]

If they really want him to get over as a babyface, they should put him in New Day.

[Matt D]

More this:

 

[Parties]

 

And the solution to push a guy the audience don't want to see pushed even harder isn't as horrible? Besides a heel turn, how does that help him? They aren't going to change their minds just because it takes him 5 minutes to beat Big Show instead of 15. Come on man.

 

 

(Eventually) pushing someone hard is a necessity to getting anyone over. I'm sorry, but that's not a Reigns thing: that's an everyone thing. You need him to win matches in order for people to develop faith in him. Even when WWF had to drop back and punt on blue chipper Rocky Maivia after "Die Rocky Die", the Rock of the Nation of Domination was still a guy who won most of his matches and was presented as the upstart ace usurping power of a big stable from Simmons. From the way he was presented, you'd have thought that Rock never lost. Austin lost two straight to Bret, but those were brilliantly worked/booked matches that made him look like the better man, even in defeat. Which in some ways was the story of Mania this year: Reigns had Brock beat and got screwed. But they never really told that story properly. He needed to win a ton of matches before and after to justify the significance of that big loss, and have that big loss validate him. No one watches the NBA regular season, yet the Finals are always massive nationwide, because people want to watch winners win. And see the other winners lose. Because the key word there is winners: we know that both teams are elite. You need to be a character the crowd considers a contender. Which hasn't been the way he's been booked in the wake of Mania: quite the opposite. 50/50 booking gets you nowhere, especially toward the guy who's supposed to be the next ace. Austin took those losses from Bret and went on to years of dominance. It's not that you can never lose: it's that it needs to be thoughtfully executed when you do.

 

A year straight of defeats doesn't work for me because that just hasn't been his character for the last several years. Nor is it in tune with the way the rest of the company is booked. He isn't Honma in the G1. He isn't rookie year Kobashi who went 0-98 or whatever. And incidentally: I'm a huge proponent of that type of All Japan youth-oriented caste system where certain young guys start off their careers with a lot of losses and gradually improve over time to start getting big wins. It's something I'd love to see them start doing with guys like Slater and Bo Dallas: beat them like a drum, watch them develop great selling techniques, garner sympathy, and genuinely celebrate them getting over when they finally do get the big win. My hope is that it's sort of what's happening with Neville right now, but I don't think they're consciously even putting that much thought into it.

 

But we're way, way past that point with Reigns. He's main evented Mania. He's been booked as the toughest member of the most dominant WWE stable since Evolution. They've burned him out too fast, but that's the nature of their whole approach to TV nowadays. Everyone is burnt out and overexposed: we just notice it more in Reigns because we know that he's "the chosen one". If he went on a losing streak of any real length, that's a suicidal move that turns him into a cross between Ziggler, Ryback, and the Miz. At best it gets him the "he should be pushed more!" reaction that guys like Ziggler get online. But that's my point in saying that it's a huge mistake to try to book Reigns toward what IWC smarks think. He's not Danielson, he's never gonna be Danielson, and incidentally, not everyone should be Danielson. The booking of Reigns should be getting him to somewhere between Austin and Rock: a guy who comes off as genuinely tough, but who is also really good looking, popular with women, and able to cut great promos. Which, by all accounts, he can, when he's not being scripted by thirty clueless losers who got fired from Disney Channel melodramas.

 

Hence my third bullet point: stop writing awful verbiage. If there's one adage that I would like to etch and bronze into the entrance of Titan's writers room, it would be: "DRIVE THE BEER TRUCK TO THE RING." That is the philosophy which guides wrestling and gets people over. "DRIVE THE BEER TRUCK," you limp-wristed dweebs!

[Slasher]

Today's WWE is not 1998 WWF. The fans are different. Yes in the long run they grow to respect winners but if they want to make Reigns the man now, they are going to have to do something different than what they have been doing-which is winning most of the time. Reigns is already one of the most protected acts in all of WWE and how is that working out? I do agree they need to give him better material for promos though.

[Loss]

Roman Reigns is less protected than John Cena, Randy Orton, Seth Rollins, Bray Wyatt, HHH, Stephanie McMahon, Brock Lesnar, Undertaker and Kane. Maybe we can now add Braun Strowman to that list. Someone barely in the top ten of most protected acts in WWE isn't really evidence of a guy being pushed too hard. Is he noticeably more protected than Kevin Owens, Cesaro or Dean Ambrose these days? I think if you asked WWE, they'd say yes, but in practice, not really.

[Slasher]

Less protected than the babyface ace, the world champion, long time golden boy, heir to Undertaker's push, the former franchise player turned authority figure and his co-owner wife, a legitimate athlete pushed as death incarnate, legendary supernatural entity and his brother? Wow. I definitely think he is noticeably more protected than Ambrose, Cesaro and Owens considering he rarely ever jobs on TV and he is featured more prominently. Ambrose looks like he is protected but in reality he is a JTTS. The only time he gets a title shot is when it is time to job to Rollins. You think he ever sniffs a main event with Brock Lesnar? But that is what Reigns got. And Cesaro? C'mon. He lost twice just recently to Owens and I don't think he's ever won a major match besides that Andre the Giant trophy. Vince doesn't even know how to push him and you are equating that to Roman Reigns? Are you fucking kidding me? Kevin Owens I am not sure but pretty sure Reigns has had a better winning percentage than Owens although Owens has done a fantastic job as a HEEL making himself a big deal. But none of this is relevant. Reigns matters more to WWE and that is still very much so obvious in the way they have booked the entire show.

[Loss]

He did a random job to Big Show on television and lost to Bray Wyatt on pay-per-view recently. His whole push seems like a social experiment. If we don't really push a guy very hard on television, but do an information campaign through the wrestling media that he's our pet project and we tell people that we are pushing him hard, will they believe it? Thus far, the answer seems to be yes. He won the Rumble. So did Sheamus. He rarely loses on television. Same is true for Rusev. He headlined a Wrestlemania. So did The Miz (and he won!) The backstage newz that he's the guy is not congruent at all with how he is presented week-to-week.

[Cap]

But there is a huge difference in pre-mania Reigns and post-mania reigns. I know some people are saying he is being shoved down people's throats now, but I don't really see that at all. Pre-mania reigns presents the problems of shoving a pet project down the audiences throat. That reigns never lost and was certainly more protected than just about anyone on the roster at the time. I think a lot of people have leftover resentment of that Reigns.

 

Post-Mania reigns hasn't been protected all that much. Even when he looks strong he sort of blends into the fray of half written stories. The need to "rebuild" him or at least change something comes from the fact that they risk losing him shuffle. Just when he was becoming interesting (putting on good matches at Fastlane and Mania and not reading scripted promos all the time) they seemed to stop paying attention to him and that hurt. I honestly couldn't tell you the results of his last hand full of matches. I haven't been watching that closely - admittedly - but the whole thing kind of blends into the background. If that is the case neither wins nor losses will be the thing that gets him out of this, because no one will care either way. Protection is about making him strong, but it is also making him matter no matter what

 

They just seem to have no sense of moderation with this guy.

[Parties]

Everyone talks about what a burden it is to book this much TV weekly, but on last night's RAW they only used about 1/3rd of their active, uninjured people on the main roster. Zero feuds or even appearances for most undercarders. Entire midcard spinning its wheels. Bringing in decrepit Attitude Era act because you've decided none of your tag teams matter. And the 10 or so guys who they consider stars (I say guys because honestly, they don't consider any of the women stars) are thus overexposed to death. It's as if they think people will forget that their stars exist if they don't each have a PPV-caliber match every week on RAW, SD, and every special event. The exception being Lesnar, the most over act in the company. Maybe if they actually used more of the folks they have, someone would accidentally get over, and you wouldn't have to book constant rematches of last week's PPV.

 

TL;DR: I think Reigns and others would be more over (and less "shoved down throats" according to detractors) if they weren't booked live 2-3 times every week.

[goc]

Interesting numbers here:

 

* August 28th in Ft. Myers, FL drew 6,000 fans (John Cena tour)

 

* August 29th in Orlando drew 6,500 fans (Cena tour)

 

Dean Ambrose b Kevin Owens, Jimmy Uso b Baron Corbin, Charlotte & Paige & Becky Lynch b Sasha Banks & Naomi & Tamina Snuka, No DQ: Dolph Ziggler b Rusev, Jack Swagger b Tyler Breeze, Tag titles: Big E & Xavier Woods b Titus O’Neil & Darren Young, WWE title: John Cena b Seth Rollins-DQ

 

* August 29th in San Juan, PR drew 13,000 fans (Roman Reigns tour)

 

IC title: Ryback b Big Show, Cesaro b Bo Dallas, Natalya b Emma, Neville b Stardust, Chris Jericho b Luke Harper, Randy Orton b Sheamus, R-Truth b Heath Slater, Los Matadores b Sin Cara & Kalisto, Street fight: Roman Reigns b Bray Wyatt

 

* August 30th in Daytona Beach drew 4,000 fans (Cena tour)

 

Dolph Ziggler b Rusev, Jimmy Uso b Tyler Breeze, Paige & Charlotte & Becky Lynch b Naomi & Sasha Banks & Tamina Snuka, Dean Ambrose b Kevin Owens, Jack Swagger b Baron Corbin, Tag titles: Xavier Woods & Kofi Kingston b Titus O’Neil & Darren Young, WWE title: John Cena b Seth Rollins-DQ

 

* August 30th in Tallahassee drew 7,000 fans (Reigns tour)

 

IC title: Ryback b Big Show, Cesaro b Bo Dallas, Natalya b Emma, Chris Jericho b Luke Harper, Randy Orton b Sheamus, Neville b Stardust, R-Truth b Heath Slater, Sin Cara & Kalisto b Los Matadores, Street fight: Roman Reigns b Bray Wyatt

 

* August 31st in Tampa for RAW drew 9,000 fans

[Loss]

It's interesting and could mean that Reigns' push is working deceptively well, or at the very least, not harming business. But it's complicated by the idea that a lot of people have adopted recently (I'm not sure if you subscribe to this or not), that it's the WWE brand that sells the show. This is more of a general statement than something I'm rolling out at anyone in particular, but it seems like we credit the people on top when it's convenient and roll out the WWE brand argument when it's convenient. Realistically, it's probably a little bit of both.

 

I don't even think that applies to Reigns exclusively -- Dave tried to make the case for Kevin Owens as a draw in the latest WON based on impressive house show numbers against Cena, which were higher than Cena's run with Bray Wyatt at this time last year. I don't know if that holds up to scrutiny. It might but I think we should also look at the on-sale date, what angles had aired on TV by that time, what percentage of the house was walk-ups, if a lineup was announced immediately when tickets went on sale, how long it had been since they were last in those markets, etc. Plus, WWE in general seems to be hotter now than it was last year at this time. And I still haven't figured out why in that case.

[goc]

My entire thoughts on the matter were summed up by saying "interesting numbers." I'll let everyone else argue over what they do/don't mean. Not saying that to be a dick but I just thought they were interesting numbers when I read them and I posted them just because they fit in this thread.