JvK reviews pimped matches from late 90s-10s

[Grimmas]

Its up there in my MOTY list right now. Incredibly great tag match.

[Luchaundead]

I do hope that's a deliberate Aquemini reference there.

 

It is Hero is a pretty notorious hip hop head as you might be able to tell from their amazing entrance music

 

 

*****

 

This really shocked me not that the match isn't that good just did not expect Parv to get giving anything from Evolve the full 5 so quickly

[JerryvonKramer]

I'm kinda surprised that match hasn't had a bit more hype around it, I went back to the Evolve iPPV thread but there wasn't a lot of talk around Evolve 53. Childs seems to have liked the match.

 

My impression was that it wasn't just a MOTYC but a MOTDC as well as in the conversation for "best tag ever". I will say that the fact it didn't go on last and wasn't for anything that important (just a first-round tag tournament match) makes it one of the most random and incongruous 5-star matches ever for me.

 

I might need to watch it again, because to put this in context, here are some tags I have at 4.75:

 

Lex Luger and Barry Windham vs. Arn Anderson and Tully Blanchard (3/27/88)

Arn Anderson and Larry Zbyszko vs. Ricky Steamboat and Dustin Rhodes (11/19/91)

Cowboy Bill Watts & Stagger Lee vs. The Midnight Express (4/22/84)

Buddy Rose & Doug Somers vs. Midnight Rockers (8/30/86)

Buddy Rose & Doug Somers vs. Midnight Rockers (1/17/87)

 

Dory Funk Jr. and Terry Funk vs. Giant Baba and Jumbo Tsuruta (03/13/75)

Terry & Dory Funk Jr. vs. The Sheik & Abdullah the Butcher (7/15/79)

Jumbo Tsuruta & Kenta Kobashi vs. Genichiro Tenryu & Stan Hansen (7/15/89)

Giant Baba & Rusher Kimura vs. Genichiro Tenryu & Stan Hansen (11/29/89)

Mitsuharu Misawa & Toshiaki Kawada vs Jumbo Tsuruta & Akira Taue (09/30/90)

Mitsuharu Misawa, Toshiaki Kawada & Kenta Kobashi vs Jumbo Tsuruta, Akira Taue & Masa Fuchi (05/22/92)

Kenta Kobashi & Tsuyoshi Kikuchi vs Doug Furnas & Dan Kroffat (05/25/92)

Mitsuharu Misawa vs Toshiaki Kawada vs Kenta Kobashi & Giant Baba (11/27/92)

Mitsuharu Misawa & Kenta Kobashi vs Toshiaki Kawada & Akira Taue (06/01/93)

Mitsuharu Misawa & Jun Akiyama vs Toshiaki Kawada & Akira Taue (11/29/96)

 

Hiroshi Hase and Kensuke Sasaki vs. Shiro Koshinaka and Takayuki Iizuka (12/13/90)

 

Atlantis & El Hijo del Santo vs. Fuerza Guerrera & Lobo Rubio (11/25/83)

 

So it's not a claim I'd want to make lightly that I think this match is better than all of those, the two matches I think about most which are as close to being 5-star as possible while still being 4.75 are the Kikuchi 92 tag and the Steamboat comeback match from Clash 17.

 

Both those matches are built around incredibly hot FIP sequences. My gut instinct was to say that the Sabre Jr FIP sequence in this match from his little WoS-style work over of End's arm to the finish was better than either of those.

 

I'd have to think about "how high" exactly I'd go on this.

 

My other 5-star tags include:

 

Terry Funk and Dory Funk Jr vs. The Sheik and Abdullah the Butcher (9/19/78)

Terry Funk and Dory Funk Jr vs. Stan Hansen & Terry Gordy (8/31/83)

Jumbo Tsuruta & Genichiro Tenryu vs. Riki Choshu Yoshiaki Yatsu (1/28/86)

Jumbo Tsuruta & Genichiro Tenryu vs. Riki Choshu & Yoshiaki Yatsu (2/5/87)

Genichiro Tenryu & Toshiaki Kawada vs. Stan Hansen & Terry Gordy (12/16/88)

Jumbo Tsuruta & Yoshiaki Yatsu vs. Genichiro Tenryu & Stan Hansen (12/6/89)

Manami Toyota and Toshiyo Yamada vs Mayumi Ozaki and Dynamite Kansai (AJW 11/26/92)

Akira Taue & Toshiaki Kawada vs Mitsuharu Misawa & Kenta Kobashi (12/3/93)

Mitsuharu Misawa & Kenta Kobashi vs Toshiaki Kawada & Akira Taue (05/21/94)

Mitsuharu Misawa & Kenta Kobashi vs Toshiaki Kawada & Akira Taue (06/09/95)

Mitsuharu Misawa & Jun Akiyama vs Toshiaki Kawada & Akira Taue (12/06/96)

 

With the exception of the Joshi match there all of those tags took place in AJPW.

 

This rating therefore puts me in the position of saying "this is the best tag match in US history that I've seen". So I need to think about the magnitude of that claim, but thinking over it this morning, I feel like I want to stand by it.

[InYourCase]

Only tag match that comes close to the EVOLVE match from this year is Sekimoto & Hino vs. Okabayashi & Shiozaki from Fortune Dream 3. I gave both ****3/4. I don't look at them as all-timers, but both have a shot to finish in my Top 10.

[WingedEagle]

Sounds like I need to rewatch the EVOLVE tag. I had it at about ***3/4 on first viewing but am open to checking it out again. On the other hand, I am not at all a fan of Sabre Jr. and actively dislike most of his matches. But happy to approach it with an open mind.

[Matt D]

Parv,

 

While (and I haven't seen it either) apparently that match is exceptional, I think it would be good for you to watch a few more Evolve shows for stylistic context before going all in on it.

[Luchaundead]

That match received a lot of praise at the time the issue with why the buzz didn't stuck was that was in the middle of the 1st night of 3 shows. Tournaments also seem to be an issue for creating heavy touted MOTY level stuff when looked back on as a stand alone they tend to hold up more but in the moment people tend to get caught up in looking at the whole I know I did as over the course of the weekend of shows I came out more thinking "Wow Heroes Eventually Die had some amazing matches" and know about this one match other the others. Couple that basic tournament issues with the fact that most ended up watching these shows with break in-between night for multiple different reasons and you can end up with it all becoming a little hazy in your memory.

 

That being said, personally I'm not a huge "super team" fan and add in the fact that if I remember correctly Thatcher was being replaced by Sami which was a huge downgrade in my mind and I ended up seeing this as fine but actually preferred TECH v RPG from night 2 more as they both felt more like well oiled tag teams competing for dominate in the division. Plus it had more cool double team spots.

 

Parv,

 

While (and I haven't seen it either) apparently that match is exceptional, I think it would be good for you to watch a few more Evolve shows for stylistic context before going all in on it.

 

Hmm I agree with this in the idea that Parv should watch more Evolve but I find it odd to say that you need to understand the context before giving something a high rating especially so someone like Parv who I find does a great job of grading objectively. Like to say well this match isn't that much better than other Evolve style matches would really just being saying all Evolve style matches are great and should been seen as justification for rating it all highly rather than I guess trying to imply a curve that would downgrade rating on stuff just because it's all at what should be an objectively high level.

[Matt D]

I've watched a lot of wrestling. That said, I'd be hesitant to be introduced to a new style (and this is a new style for him) and immediately give a match on the first show I see five stars on a first watch. There are plenty of places that I might be missing some element because of lack of context or that I might have connected dots that I shouldn't have, for instance. I know my own limitations. I'm not saying Parv's limitations are the same as mine, but I find it useful to get a better 360 view of things.

[Childs]

I watch a lot of Evolve, and it's not a promotion where context is hugely important. Great matches (well, the attempt at them) are the brand.

 

I'm interested to see what Parv makes of Matt Riddle.

[JerryvonKramer]

Well I did have more context from watching the whole card than just that one match, so I had *some* sense of context.

 

But when it comes to this particular match I think having some exposure to 90s AJPW and to 70s World of Sport meant that I could find my footing a little bit more easily since so much of what these guys do seems to owe directly to their influence.

 

I also think Naylor and Leonard did a pretty great job on commentary of providing contexts for the newcomer. I understood, for example that Hero had been away for a little bit, and that at least 3 of the 4 participants on this tag were "coming back" in some way.

 

So yes, new to this style, but I'm not coming in with a completely blank slate. There's enough commonality with all the wrestling I've ever watched for me to drop a rating on a tag match and say "this is one of the best I've ever seen". I also dropped ** and *1/2 and other ratings on the undercard.

 

I am very very interested to see where this tournament goes and CAN go from here though, since there's a danger of "spunking the load early" with such a phenomenal match in the opening round. AJPW tended to leave the very best matches for the RWTL finals most of the time.

 

---

 

I feel quite motiviated to catch up on Hero in general though, this is the sort of thing that would make someone want to check out his greatest hits or even complete works.

[Childs]

Hero has had an absolutely fascinating career. There are pockets of self-indulgent garbage, but he's worth the journey. He'd be a great subject for a mega-comp.

[Luchaundead]

I would have expect that a certain friend of Hero's that also happens to been known for his great work when it comes to comps would have already made one but even if so it should be updated to include his recent indie run

[Luchaundead]

I've watched a lot of wrestling. That said, I'd be hesitant to be introduced to a new style (and this is a new style for him) and immediately give a match on the first show I see five stars on a first watch. There are plenty of places that I might be missing some element because of lack of context or that I might have connected dots that I shouldn't have, for instance. I know my own limitations. I'm not saying Parv's limitations are the same as mine, but I find it useful to get a better 360 view of things.

This is an interesting stance to me, I don't disagree with you idea. That said I wonder who you would see that information effecting a rating negatively unless you are implying that if Parv understood the background more he might give it a higher rating?

[Childs]

I would have expect that a certain friend of Hero's that also happens to been known for his great work when it comes to comps would have already made one but even if so it should be updated to include his recent indie run

 

You would think but alas not.

[Matt D]

 

I've watched a lot of wrestling. That said, I'd be hesitant to be introduced to a new style (and this is a new style for him) and immediately give a match on the first show I see five stars on a first watch. There are plenty of places that I might be missing some element because of lack of context or that I might have connected dots that I shouldn't have, for instance. I know my own limitations. I'm not saying Parv's limitations are the same as mine, but I find it useful to get a better 360 view of things.

This is an interesting stance to me, I don't disagree with you idea. That said I wonder who you would see that information effecting a rating negatively unless you are implying that if Parv understood the background more he might give it a higher rating?

 

That's a fair question.

 

Ok, the answer, as best as I can give it is this: It's one thing to give something a 5* rating. It's another to start to promote or drive people towards it or to utilize that rating in a social context. And then, really, what's the purpose of a star rating in the first place? Is it the end point of analysis or the starting point? Is it only worthwhile for listmaking purposes? To fill out an excel sheet?

 

If I come across a match that I rate so highly, I want to get all the way around it and understand it because it's a very rare beast. I want to really break it down and figure out what makes it tick. I want to be sure of my own rating. I want to hear others' opinions to see if they agree or disagree, if they might see something I'm missing. Moreover, just by the way I look at wrestling, I do tend to connect dots, and I want to make sure those dots are accurately connected. I want to check and double check my work.

 

In this case, while Parv dips his toe into 00s wrestling, it's usually with a level of disdain. I think he was surprised that he found this match, not only that it wasn't talked up much, but that it actually existed on this card, in the weeds of the sort of cosplay pretend indy wrestling of the modern day (even in front of a crowd that he probably didn't think deserved or appreciated what they saw correctly). That dissonance was striking to him, and whenever I encounter that level of dissonance I want to dive deeper and look for corroboration. The more information I can bring to the table, the better. I've seen my share of Hero in 2015 (if not 2016). Parv hasn't.

 

I think the ultimate goal of analyzing wrestling is understanding it, not necessarily ranking it.

[Phil Schneider]

Here are the 11 matches that Segunda Caida has ranked above it, and we are pretty behind on our 2016 list

 

1. Black Terry v. Wotan Chilanga Mask 8/21
2. Black Terry v. Barbaro Cavernario Cara Lucha 6/11
3. Trauma 1 v. Canis Lupus IWRG 9/4
4. Rush v. LA Park Liga Elite 7/16
5. Negro Casas v. Rey Hechicero Monterrey 4/24
6. Chris Hero v. Zack Sabre Jr. WWN Supershow 4/2
7. Fred Yehi v. Drew Gulak WWN Supershow 4/2
8. Joe Graves v. JR Kratos Premier XII 3/6
9. Drew Gulak v. Timothy Thatcher PWG 1/2
10. Drew Gulak/TJ Perkins v. Zack Sabre Jr./Sami Callihan EVOLVE 54 1/23

11. Black Terry v. Aero Boy Tulacingo Lucha 6/10

[InYourCase]

I've watched a lot of wrestling. That said, I'd be hesitant to be introduced to a new style (and this is a new style for him) and immediately give a match on the first show I see five stars on a first watch. There are plenty of places that I might be missing some element because of lack of context or that I might have connected dots that I shouldn't have, for instance. I know my own limitations. I'm not saying Parv's limitations are the same as mine, but I find it useful to get a better 360 view of things.

I don't think EVOLVE has that different of a style compared to the norm? It's not World of Sport, Dragon Gate, or something completely revolutionary. It has its quirks, and I get what you're saying, I just don't think EVOLVE fits with the point you're making.

[Matt D]

To some degree it's more of an temporal issue in this specific case. I need Loss to come in here and explain how he likes to understand what's happening in a certain year around the world and defend the value of that.

[Luchaundead]

 

 

I've watched a lot of wrestling. That said, I'd be hesitant to be introduced to a new style (and this is a new style for him) and immediately give a match on the first show I see five stars on a first watch. There are plenty of places that I might be missing some element because of lack of context or that I might have connected dots that I shouldn't have, for instance. I know my own limitations. I'm not saying Parv's limitations are the same as mine, but I find it useful to get a better 360 view of things.

This is an interesting stance to me, I don't disagree with you idea. That said I wonder who you would see that information effecting a rating negatively unless you are implying that if Parv understood the background more he might give it a higher rating?

 

 

I think the ultimate goal of analyzing wrestling is understanding it, not necessarily ranking it.

 

This was my disconnect but with you point that out then I totally understand, I tend to see the thread as Prav just ranking and breaking stuff down less they trying to understand it which comes with that inherent disdain you mentioned.

 

 

Here are the 11 matches that Segunda Caida has ranked above it, and we are pretty behind on our 2016 list

 

1. Black Terry v. Wotan Chilanga Mask 8/21

2. Black Terry v. Barbaro Cavernario Cara Lucha 6/11

3. Trauma 1 v. Canis Lupus IWRG 9/4

4. Rush v. LA Park Liga Elite 7/16

5. Negro Casas v. Rey Hechicero Monterrey 4/24

6. Chris Hero v. Zack Sabre Jr. WWN Supershow 4/2

7. Fred Yehi v. Drew Gulak WWN Supershow 4/2

8. Joe Graves v. JR Kratos Premier XII 3/6

9. Drew Gulak v. Timothy Thatcher PWG 1/2

10. Drew Gulak/TJ Perkins v. Zack Sabre Jr./Sami Callihan EVOLVE 54 1/23

 

11. Black Terry v. Aero Boy Tulacingo Lucha 6/10

 

#9 Was the 1st match I wanted to show Parv of Thatcher but I did no have a copy of it to easily show him

 

I'm pleasantly suprised to see you have #8 even on the radar let alone as high as I think it rightfully deserves to me

[JerryvonKramer]

I do not see the primarily goal of any review to be "understanding", that might be the goal of an anthropological project or something like that, but it's not the typical goal of a review. I see reviews as being critically evaluative. Did I like the match and why? And perhaps as a corollarily "how does it compare to other matches I've seen". These are the sorts of questions being answered, and less "why does this crowd do dualling chants?"

 

I think the thing at stake in this sort of criticism is: what does the reviewer value? Over time you might build up an idea of whether or not you can trust that guy's opinion based on the sorts of things they look for, OR at the very least, that you might be interested in what they have to say about a given match. I have always been incredibly up front about what I value and why. Some people like to take note of what I make of things, others don't care about what I have to say about wrestling at all. That's all anyone can do. Put their analysis out there and let it speak for itself.

 

You are never always going to be eye-to-eye with everyone, but looking across a range of different reviewers you can get some sense of whether your values mesh or not ... here are two other reviews of this match:

 

This was whatever. Opening was pretty boring with them doing uninteresting takes on basic holds, I've seen enough arm wingers for a lifetime, nothing Chris Hero does with them makes me want to see more. Commentary compared Tommy End to a K1 kickboxer, I don't remember ever seeing Peter Aerts do sound effect kicks. The sequence with End and Sabre Jr. avoiding each other's kicks was more eye-rolling than any of the recently debated flip GIFs and the one man Magic Killer was the type of embarrassing indy nonsense I'd expect out of Davey Richards. The Sabre in peril portion wasn't particularly interesting and all the striking quickly got repetitive. They kicked it up a notch for the finish with their puro cosplay strike exchanges but then the match just went on and on and on. I'm not really familiar with how Evolve matches are structured so it is not a good sign they couldn't get me to bite on any of the nearfalls. The idea of Tommy End, this great faux kickboxer doing Moonsaults could be explained as an Otsuka-tribute but it was much closer to a very bad Koji Kanemoto tribute. I don't really have anything nice to say about this match. It wasn't very interesting to me sorry (I did pop for the D'Lo Brown namedrop on commentary). Chris Hero has a nice Piledriver I guess. **

This is the guy who has shit on Flair vs. Garvin matches I love, and who by the same token loves one of my all-time least favourite wrestlers, Antonio Inoki.

 

I've known for some time that GOTNW is one of the guys on the board whose takes I expect to be almost diametrically opposed to mine.

 

He thinks the stuff I love from the NWA in the 80s and AJPW in the 90s is mindless, I think the Gotch-inspired Inoki stuff he venerates is as dull as dishwater, to the point where I look on the time I spent watching long Inoki matches as battle scars.

 

I still have enough interest to read his thoughts on matches, even though there is little hope of us coming togother. But we do get a strong sense of what he values in a review like this. It's not what I value, but it's a different take.

 

Pretty great US Indy approximation of an 90's All Japan tag. End and Hero are total ass kicking heels, working together great, laying in a huge creative beating on the overmatch but game pair of underdogs. Sabre is pretty great as spunky young kid who can take a hellacious asskicking, but can always pull out a submission, meanwhile Sami is flying all over the ring making saves, kicking people in the mouth, diving to the floor. He is just a whirling dirvish of energy which is really where he shines. Loved Hero and End's double teams, they did a cool version of Total Elimination with a leg sweep and straight right. Finish doesn't go into overkill which this style of match is bound to do, instead we have Sabre dying on his sword, trying desperately to grab an arm or a flash pin, while getting overwhelmed. Awesome stuff, and a real contender to stay high on this list all year.

Here is Phil S. He and I sometimes agree, sometimes we don't. We share some values, others we don't. But Phil is a guy whose take is always worth considering.

 

I remember some years ago his take on Dustin vs. Blacktop Bully in the truck got me to see that match in a TOTALLY different way, and I enjoyed the match a lot more after that.

 

Reading this review you can see that he liked the match very much but not quite as much as I did. Although in his analysis, you can see some of the possible explainations for why I loved the match so much: look back at my list of 5-star tag matches and they are mostly 90s AJPW ones.

 

To me, this is all you can ask from a critical discourse around wrestling.

[Loss]

I think it's perfectly fine to comment and rate stuff you're seeing for the first time, as long as you put those opinions in pencil instead of pen. And I think most people here take that approach.

[JerryvonKramer]

I think it's perfectly fine to comment and rate stuff you're seeing for the first time, as long as you put those opinions in pencil instead of pen. And I think most people here take that approach.

Yeah totally. I reserve the right to up or downgrade any ratings on 2nd, 3rd, 4th viewing.

 

I've also adjusted ratings before now, talked up or talked down after discussing them over with someone else whose takes I really respect. Sometimes people can see stuff you can't. And for me that's one of the key reasons to read or listen to reviews period.

[GOTNW]

 

This is the guy who has shit on Flair vs. Garvin matches

Hey! I never shit on them! In fact I enjoyed the ones I watched. Just questioned the idea they're all time great brawls, mainly due to hundreds of modern japanese and US indy matches I've seen that use pretty much the same idea of Chopman 1 vs Chopman 2 that I don't think it differed from that much. Maybe you'd think all of them are all time great matches like the Evolve tag

[Matt D]

 

I think it's perfectly fine to comment and rate stuff you're seeing for the first time, as long as you put those opinions in pencil instead of pen. And I think most people here take that approach.

Yeah totally. I reserve the right to up or downgrade any ratings on 2nd, 3rd, 4th viewing.

 

I've also adjusted ratings before now, talked up or talked down after discussing them over with someone else whose takes I really respect. Sometimes people can see stuff you can't. And for me that's one of the key reasons to read or listen to reviews period.

 

 

If you look at my initial post, I was mainly saying: "Okay, that's a big star rating. I'd be curious to see you watch some more Evolve and see if you still feel that way." That's all. I could have framed the tone better.

 

As for understanding. I think we're looking for as much of the truth of the match as we can figure out. It could be our truth of how we see it. I think understanding is a part of that. Our understanding of a match shapes our analysis and ultimately our contextual placement.

[JerryvonKramer]

 

This is the guy who has shit on Flair vs. Garvin matches

Hey! I never shit on them! In fact I enjoyed the ones I watched. Just questioned the idea they're all time great brawls, mainly due to hundreds of modern japanese and US indy matches I've seen that use pretty much the same idea of Chopman 1 vs Chopman 2 that I don't think it differed from that much. Maybe you'd think all of them are all time great matches like the Evolve tag

 

Hey, I'm just very defensive about my darling Ric you know that. I've talked at length before about "authenticity", but the difference between Flair vs. Garvin and a typical Low-Ki match lies therein.

 

What made this particular Evolve match "authentic" rather than "cosplay" as you put it? For me it was the sheer conviction of Hero's performance. Sometimes guys are so good they can reach through the nightmare post-modern abyss and find a kernal of truth, somehow. Daniel Bryan did it all the time.

 

Besides, from watching that card, Evolve seems to have less of an authenticity problem than certain other indies. The setting is kinda gritty, that particular crowd weren't that smark-bag douche-y, Naylor and Leonard kinda kept kayfabe and didn't openly talk about star ratings on commentary. Seems like Gabe has actually learned something since 2008.