JvK reviews pimped matches from late 90s-10s

[GOTNW]

That point isn't really relevant for chop matches. If Flair vs Garvin is authentic so is Sekimoto vs Okabayashi or whatever random puro match built around basic strike exchanges. Low Ki stole a bunch of 90s spots, mixed them to create creoles and even created some on his own. I rather like the persona and the worker he became but that doesn't really have to do anything with the match in question.

[JerryvonKramer]

The smart line of enquiry here would be to ask something like "weren't Flair and Garvin doing Wahoo McDaniel cosplay anyway?"

 

Something like that. I think that's an interesting question to consider.

[Loss]

It's completely unfair, but I think the reason people don't really talk about Flair-Garvin that way is because they worked with the actual guys and learned from them instead of watching tapes and copying stuff. I think a good wrestler is perfectly capable of learning things from tape, but I'm sure it's also easier to pick up on some of the subtleties when you learn directly from the people who actually put in the time.

[Luchaundead]

Chris Hero got the chance to work and train with Misawa so that might play into why Hero has the authenticity that Parv says is normally lacking in this stuff

[Microstatistics]

Jvk since you are exploring modern wrestling (which you have criticized a lot), are you going to give lucha another shot? What about joshi which you seemed to like?

[JerryvonKramer]

Mitsuharu Misawa & Kenta Kobashi vs Jun Akiyama & Yuji Nagata (02/17/02)

 

Kobashi is ridiculously over here. Seems like he'd just comeback from a big injury. It's kind of interesting to see Misawa so downplayed and second fiddle here. Crowd are just pumped to see Kobashi vs. Akiyama.

 

He might work a big dumb style that people want to turn their noses up at, but -- and I've said this before -- Kobashi in terms of pure ability is the greatest ever to lace them up: the best big bumper, the best big seller, the best face in peril, the best on offense. I mean, this isn't an all-time match or anything like that. But by god does he put his heart and soul into every damn thing he does here. Every chop, every suplex, every bump, every moment where he cries out in pain selling his injured leg. If he was in a computer game or top trumps, he'd be the guy with 10/10 across the board in every stat.

 

As for everyone else, they were in this match too, just about. Match was at its best when Akiyama and Nagata took the shortcuts to the injured leg and put Kobashi in agony. Misawa honestly feels like he phoned this one in, as was his want in many of the big tags.

 

For me though, this is something I'd show someone to demonstrate what amazing all around work ethic can look like. Kurt Angle had a great work ethic when it came to bumping and throwing suplexes, but he'd forget to sell. Chris Benoit had a great work ethic too, but he'd forget to emote. Even Ric Flair -- the guy with the greatest work ethic of them all -- would often forget to throw in cool offense. Not so Kobashi. Every single category is a 10 verging on 11.

 

****

[NintendoLogic]

I really hate this idea that Kobashi was a big dumb wrestler. He may have had moments of excess, but he's one of the smartest wrestlers who ever lived.

[JerryvonKramer]

I really hate this idea that Kobashi was a big dumb wrestler. He may have had moments of excess, but he's one of the smartest wrestlers who ever lived.

Well, yes, that too.

[fxnj]

TFW me giving ***** to Lee/Everett from June and shoe giving it ****3/4 got nowhere close to this much discussion.

[Microstatistics]

I really hate this idea that Kobashi was a big dumb wrestler. He may have had moments of excess, but he's one of the smartest wrestlers who ever lived.

 

Co-signed.

 

Big, loud, maximalist ≠ dumb wrestler

Minimalist, subtle ≠ smart wrestler

 

He definitely went overboard at times though, I would never deny that.

[pol]

I can understand the excess accusations, but it sees unfair to make them and not also acknowledge his mid-2000s Chopbashi period where he was more over than ever while doing less than ever. Never seen him credited for how he adapted to his limitations as he got older, something that some people claim to care a lot about.

[Robert S]

Kobashi is ridiculously over here. Seems like he'd just comeback from a big injury.

Kobashi was out with a knee injury between 12/23/00 and this match. Well, injury sounds a bit like the wrong term, his knees were basically gone so he took off 14 months and went through multiple surgeries. In this match he went too far and had to take another five months off.

[JerryvonKramer]

 

Kobashi is ridiculously over here. Seems like he'd just comeback from a big injury.

 

Kobashi was out with a knee injury between 12/23/00 and this match. Well, injury sounds a bit like the wrong term, his knees were basically gone so he took off 14 months and went through multiple surgeries. In this match he went too far and had to take another five months off.

Yeah there was a pretty handy video package telling the story before. Learning that he had to take another five months off doesn't make me think he was stupid by the way, it just makes me think "bless him" for working that hard in the match, he was in overdrive.

[ShittyLittleBoots]

I'd love to hear your take on this match.

Also I think this is something you'd like:

[Matt D]

I can understand the excess accusations, but it sees unfair to make them and not also acknowledge his mid-2000s Chopbashi period where he was more over than ever while doing less than ever. Never seen him credited for how he adapted to his limitations as he got older, something that some people claim to care a lot about.

 

Part of my personal frustration with mid-late 90s AJPW is just how good and smart they are, with an attention to detail to very small things that can have huge emotional impacts within a match and over matches. There are so many specific elements that are completely down my alley and better and more layered than any other attempt at them I've come across. Then, they just go on too far with too much and lose me and it's much worse than if the match was terrible to begin with. It's, in part, why I gravitate towards Taue, because his physical limitations meant that he could only go so far and he was still awash in the general style and everything else. It doesn't mean his input is better necessarily but that I am more comfortable with his output. It's not a very good argument for him as a better wrestler (he probably wasn't), but it's the argument for him having matches that I'm happier watching.

 

I also recognize my lack of breadth of watching, so I'm not a particularly loud voice on this topic. I should check out mid-2000s Kobashi at some point. Someone suggest me a few specific matches I'd probably be high on?

[Loss]

I'm actually not a big fan of Chopbashi -- not because he was limited physically, but because his matches became so redundant. Even then though, there are quite a few matches I think are really good. But yeah, before that, I agree that he's the most talented wrestler of all time. Dave compares him to Michael Jordan.

[concrete1992]

TFW me giving ***** to Lee/Everett from June and shoe giving it ****3/4 got nowhere close to this much discussion.

Imagine Parv as a message board character seemingly the champion of classic wrestling throwing stars at matches that feel emblematic of what most feel are modern contests. No one can just pull that off. That is until DylanWaco starts enjoying Dragon Gate possibly...

 

EDIT: Not saying Parv attempts to ACT but I know for sure that people who "lurk", which I guess includes me more often than not, start building narratives around posters to try and develop an overall feel of someone.

[JerryvonKramer]

 

I can understand the excess accusations, but it sees unfair to make them and not also acknowledge his mid-2000s Chopbashi period where he was more over than ever while doing less than ever. Never seen him credited for how he adapted to his limitations as he got older, something that some people claim to care a lot about.

Part of my personal frustration with mid-late 90s AJPW is just how good and smart they are, with an attention to detail to very small things that can have huge emotional impacts within a match and over matches. There are so many specific elements that are completely down my alley and better and more layered than any other attempt at them I've come across. Then, they just go on too far with too much and lose me and it's much worse than if the match was terrible to begin with. It's, in part, why I gravitate towards Taue, because his physical limitations meant that he could only go so far and he was still awash in the general style and everything else. It doesn't mean his input is better necessarily but that I am more comfortable with his output. It's not a very good argument for him as a better wrestler (he probably wasn't), but it's the argument for him having matches that I'm happier watching.

 

I also recognize my lack of breadth of watching, so I'm not a particularly loud voice on this topic. I should check out mid-2000s Kobashi at some point. Someone suggest me a few specific matches I'd probably be high on?

 

A very interesting side-topic that came out of Chad's discussion with Quentin on Psychology is Dead is the possible uses of "excess" in storytelling.

 

That excess is in someway not only an intrinsic part of Kobashi's character but also one of his fatal flaws like Icarus trying to fly to the sun and having his wings melted every time.

 

It's also a lesson that he (the kayfabe character) consistently fails to learn from charging into Stan Hansen in the early 90s and getting himself near killed, to his battles with Misawa and others. All heart, all guts, all the time, and so "winding it back" isn't part of his role or who he is meant to be portraying.

 

I've said this before but Nick Bockwinkel's character was "smart guy", "wily vet", "sneaky champ", when THAT's your character then of course a lot of stuff you do is going to "smart". But Kobashi didn't have that character. Ric didn't either, but I don't think there are four faces of Bock like there are four faces of Flair ... from a certain perspective Bock is more one dimensional in his actual character work than Flair is.

 

I'm not picking on Bock per se, I mean I had him in my top 10 for GWE, but he's the flag bearer for "psychology", and Flair and Kobashi are the routine whipping boys, but I think the analysis isn't really deep enough in any of the three cases. Bock does MICRO psychology very well, Flair and Kobashi, both I think, excel at layered match-on-match stuff and what I'm going to call "deep character". And hubristic excess is a part of both of those characters for different reasons.

 

You've talked a lot about "purpose" and "meaning", what about cases where the correct artistic choice is something that is over the top or excessive to get a certain idea across?

 

I just think the talking point is completely overplayed as criticism, to the point where I think venerating Taue out of the four pillars for doing more with less has become an eye-rolling cliche. Not a shot at Matt or anyone in particular, but I don't see the talk around that as being particularly enlightening at this point.

[Matt D]

 

 

I can understand the excess accusations, but it sees unfair to make them and not also acknowledge his mid-2000s Chopbashi period where he was more over than ever while doing less than ever. Never seen him credited for how he adapted to his limitations as he got older, something that some people claim to care a lot about.

Part of my personal frustration with mid-late 90s AJPW is just how good and smart they are, with an attention to detail to very small things that can have huge emotional impacts within a match and over matches. There are so many specific elements that are completely down my alley and better and more layered than any other attempt at them I've come across. Then, they just go on too far with too much and lose me and it's much worse than if the match was terrible to begin with. It's, in part, why I gravitate towards Taue, because his physical limitations meant that he could only go so far and he was still awash in the general style and everything else. It doesn't mean his input is better necessarily but that I am more comfortable with his output. It's not a very good argument for him as a better wrestler (he probably wasn't), but it's the argument for him having matches that I'm happier watching.

 

I also recognize my lack of breadth of watching, so I'm not a particularly loud voice on this topic. I should check out mid-2000s Kobashi at some point. Someone suggest me a few specific matches I'd probably be high on?

 

I've said this before but Nick Bockwinkel's character was "smart guy", "wily vet", "sneaky champ", when THAT's your character then of course a lot of stuff you do is going to "smart". But Kobashi didn't have that character. Ric didn't either, but I don't think there are four faces of Bock like there are four faces of Flair ... from a certain perspective Bock is more one dimensional in his actual character work than Flair is.

 

 

I think that's utter nonsense. Not even worth replying to.

 

As for the other point, I just made a distinction of Taue as a worker vs Taue matches. Inputs vs outputs. Which goes against your last complaint completely.

[JerryvonKramer]

I'd love to see a breakdown of Bock that has something like the depth of the four faces. I'm not sure that Bock was put in positions to even have them because he was a pure heel. Babyface Bock was just heel Bock who was cheered, whereas Babyface Flair was a genuine hero to a whole area.

 

I'll just say it: I don't think Bock could have done Starrcade 93. It would never have worked, the emotion wouldn't have been there. He didn't have the range in his character to make it work.

[Loss]

I do agree with the general point that sometimes workers are branded as not being smart because intelligence is not the most defining characteristic of their character. The kayfabe and non-kayfabe gets obfuscated.

[Matt D]

I do agree with the general point that sometimes workers are branded as not being smart because intelligence is not the most defining characteristic of their character. The kayfabe and non-kayfabe gets obfuscated.

 

I can understand why that might be a pitfall somewhere else, but I don't think that's even remotely an issue here. Not even a 1% chance with the people we have on this board and the depth they look at matches. Not even a ghost of a chance.

 

It's the equivalent of saying that people think that Mike Shaw was a pretty dumb and wasteful worker because he portrayed Norman the Lunatic. Just ridiculous.

[Loss]

So the belief that Taue was better than Kobashi has absolutely nothing at all to do with the nature of their characters? I always thought that played an implicit role. I don't think it's intentional or something people spend a lot of time thinking about, but I do think if the character is a tactician, he'll probably be favored over the character that's a hothead.

[Matt D]

So the belief that Taue was better than Kobashi has absolutely nothing at all to do with the nature of their characters? I always thought that played an implicit role. I don't think it's intentional or something people spend a lot of time thinking about, but I do think if the character is a tactician, he'll probably be favored over the character that's a hothead.

 

I think a) It's a point that's been raised before, so if people weren't aware of their biases on this issue, then they've had plenty of notice to stop and look at it, and b ) we're far enough along in the analysis of character work to really look at the character being played. That's part of the entire point of it. We've spent years delving into this stuff. I think we're able to be aware of the difference between the wrestler and the character. We all have preferences, but everyone, from Parv to Chad to you to I to Sam to everyone here, often goes out of their ways to acknowledge preferences and try to control for them in looking at matches. It's what we do. To say we're not aware of that, almost half a year after the GWE project ended, years after it began, and after people have reviewed hundreds upon hundreds of matches here is pretty absurd to me.

[JerryvonKramer]

Bock also could not have gone on the character arch from Steamboat feud to Funk feud in 89. Again, I'm not sure his character (kayfabe-wise) had the range to make both of them work and fire on all cylinders.

 

Like the Larry Z stuff was fun, it was great for what it was, but it wasn't Flair vs. Funk and lacked the same level of heightened emotion that send that feud over the edge. Again, not a knock on Bock per se, there are not more than a handful of guys in history to have the character range that Ric does. But it's an example again of how standard narratives around Bock being versatile and smart and Ric being limited and dumb are much, much overplayed when you actually start analyse the material, and go beyond match mechanics. And I don't think it's "nonsense" to say that.

 

Anyway, later on I'm going to watch McGunness vs. KENTA, my prior experiences with both guys were seeing them vs. Daniel Bryan, and the McGuinness match I gave 4.75. After that, I'm finally going to sit down and watch Misawa vs. Kobashi '03, spurred on mainly by Chad's analysis on the recent show and that injury comeback tag I watched from last night.