Wrestler awareness of things not in their bubble

[Jingus]

And admittedly to the larger argument, I did miss that this original meeting took place "about a decade back" and thought it was much more recent. So, okay, his WWE tenure wouldn't count, and that would of course hurt his overall recognizability. Still: he wrestled in her country, she'd never wrestled in his.

[Jingus]

But are you talking about hardcores or casuals.

It's not that black-or-white. There's a big sliding scale of how obsessive people are about their wrestling. But, for comparisons sake: three thousand people showed up at the Municipal Auditorium in December of 1999 for an ECW tv taping. Literally one month later, a WCW house show didn't even draw one thousand people to the very same building. THAT'S the atmosphere I'm used to, where even the quarter-hardcores or the mostly-casuals were very familiar with the ECW product.

[Slasher]

Just look at TNA. They have been on the same national network as ECW. They have lasted as long if not longer than ECW. Yet you hear stories all the time about wrestlers being stopped by fans in public places and be asked some variation of the same question which is "Why aren't you wrestling anymore?" This despite the fact they have been wrrstling for years with TNA. The way you would have it is that people should know James Storm. The reality is no, not many people know who James Storm is. It is great you are involved in a community of people that knows their shit, but it isn't the indicator of national or global awareness that you seem to think it is.

 

I guess I should giggle at your astounding lack of awareness of reality but I won't.

[ohtani's jacket]

I'm sorry Jingus, but the idea of Jaquar Yokota watching an ECW tape is preposterous. I doubt she knew everything that was going on in the Japanese scene let alone the States. i dunno how you'd go about getting an ECW tape at the time. Maybe rent one from Champion. Can't see that happening. I don't think Nitro was ever on Japanese TV. WWE has been on satellite since I moved here, but I don't know about the 90s. I'd venture to say the majority of Japanese wrestlers exposure to American wrestlers was through Americans wrestling in Japan. There may be some exposure through magazines, but even then the women were probably more interested in Lady's Gong. The language barrier makes reading the Observer impossible. The magazine writers were probably more in tune with what was happening in the States. Don't forget, Joshi girls lived in a bubble of training, dorming, training, dorming, wrestling, training, dorming. When everyone was watching wrestling on terrestrial TV, they were out traveling and performing.

[GOTNW]

Don't kid yourself, most of Sandman's "fame" comes from participating in those WWECW reunion shows.

[Jingus]

I'm sorry Jingus, but the idea of Jaquar Yokota watching an ECW tape is preposterous. I doubt she knew everything that was going on in the Japanese scene let alone the States. i dunno how you'd go about getting an ECW tape at the time. Maybe rent one from Champion. Can't see that happening. I don't think Nitro was ever on Japanese TV. WWE has been on satellite since I moved here, but I don't know about the 90s. I'd venture to say the majority of Japanese wrestlers exposure to American wrestlers was through Americans wrestling in Japan. There may be some exposure through magazines, but even then the women were probably more interested in Lady's Gong. The language barrier makes reading the Observer impossible. The magazine writers were probably more in tune with what was happening in the States. Don't forget, Joshi girls lived in a bubble of training, dorming, training, dorming, wrestling, training, dorming. When everyone was watching wrestling on terrestrial TV, they were out traveling and performing.

The thing is: every single thing you're listing, from the lack of legally-available tapes to the lack of foreign wrestling on television to the language barrier to being in a bubble: all that stuff applies just as well to American wrestlers watching Japanese stuff. Yet clearly they managed to do exactly that, a lot. "Watching Japanese tapes" was the most popular thing for young wrestlers in the late 90s to do together. Why would it work so differently in the other direction?

 

Don't kid yourself, most of Sandman's "fame" comes from participating in those WWECW reunion shows.

Holy shit, after Lariat got canned, Vince got a NEW account to post at PWO!

[Laz]

That the (proven true) possibility of somebody not knowing somebody else escapes your grasp is hilarious.

[DR Ackermann]

This whole argument is insane, but I love it. Nobody in the real world cares about the Sandman or knows who he is. Only wrestling fans know who the Sandman is. Roberts is a part of pop culture.

[PeteF3]

 

I'm sorry Jingus, but the idea of Jaquar Yokota watching an ECW tape is preposterous. I doubt she knew everything that was going on in the Japanese scene let alone the States. i dunno how you'd go about getting an ECW tape at the time. Maybe rent one from Champion. Can't see that happening. I don't think Nitro was ever on Japanese TV. WWE has been on satellite since I moved here, but I don't know about the 90s. I'd venture to say the majority of Japanese wrestlers exposure to American wrestlers was through Americans wrestling in Japan. There may be some exposure through magazines, but even then the women were probably more interested in Lady's Gong. The language barrier makes reading the Observer impossible. The magazine writers were probably more in tune with what was happening in the States. Don't forget, Joshi girls lived in a bubble of training, dorming, training, dorming, wrestling, training, dorming. When everyone was watching wrestling on terrestrial TV, they were out traveling and performing.

The thing is: every single thing you're listing, from the lack of legally-available tapes to the lack of foreign wrestling on television to the language barrier to being in a bubble: all that stuff applies just as well to American wrestlers watching Japanese stuff. Yet clearly they managed to do exactly that, a lot. "Watching Japanese tapes" was the most popular thing for young wrestlers in the late 90s to do together. Why would it work so differently in the other direction?

 

 

Aside from available pipelines drying up, one of the reasons Baba stopped sending young boys over on learning excursions is (and this is an almost-exact quote) "there's nothing more that can be learned in the US." Think about it.

 

And we've rattled off HOW many U.S. stars who didn't know what was going on in Japan? Flair probably doesn't know anybody in the post-Jumbo era in AJPW. Bret Hart in his own book seemed completely unaware that the poor Tiger Mask imitator he dumped on would go on to become a legend. Jim Cornette used to dismiss the Thrillseekers trying to incorporate "Japanese shit" into their SMW matches. Who is "they" in "they managed to do exactly that"? Obviously it was some people, but it sure wasn't everyone.

 

Who was the Japanese equivalent to Dave Meltzer or even Herb Kunze, relentlessly reviewing and pimping American matches to Japanese fans?

[Loss]

 

 

I'm sorry Jingus, but the idea of Jaquar Yokota watching an ECW tape is preposterous. I doubt she knew everything that was going on in the Japanese scene let alone the States. i dunno how you'd go about getting an ECW tape at the time. Maybe rent one from Champion. Can't see that happening. I don't think Nitro was ever on Japanese TV. WWE has been on satellite since I moved here, but I don't know about the 90s. I'd venture to say the majority of Japanese wrestlers exposure to American wrestlers was through Americans wrestling in Japan. There may be some exposure through magazines, but even then the women were probably more interested in Lady's Gong. The language barrier makes reading the Observer impossible. The magazine writers were probably more in tune with what was happening in the States. Don't forget, Joshi girls lived in a bubble of training, dorming, training, dorming, wrestling, training, dorming. When everyone was watching wrestling on terrestrial TV, they were out traveling and performing.

The thing is: every single thing you're listing, from the lack of legally-available tapes to the lack of foreign wrestling on television to the language barrier to being in a bubble: all that stuff applies just as well to American wrestlers watching Japanese stuff. Yet clearly they managed to do exactly that, a lot. "Watching Japanese tapes" was the most popular thing for young wrestlers in the late 90s to do together. Why would it work so differently in the other direction?

 

 

Aside from available pipelines drying up, one of the reasons Baba stopped sending young boys over on learning excursions is (and this is an almost-exact quote) "there's nothing more that can be learned in the US." Think about it.

 

And we've rattled off HOW many U.S. stars who didn't know what was going on in Japan? Flair probably doesn't know anybody in the post-Jumbo era in AJPW. Bret Hart in his own book seemed completely unaware that the poor Tiger Mask imitator he dumped on would go on to become a legend. Jim Cornette used to dismiss the Thrillseekers trying to incorporate "Japanese shit" into their SMW matches. Who is "they" in "they managed to do exactly that"? Obviously it was some people, but it sure wasn't everyone.

 

Who was the Japanese equivalent to Dave Meltzer or even Herb Kunze, relentlessly reviewing and pimping American matches to Japanese fans?

 

 

Holy cow, does this post touch on at least a half dozen things that I'd love to start threads for, because I think they warrant full discussion on their own. I'll try to spread them out.

[Mad Dog]

This whole argument is insane, but I love it. Nobody in the real world cares about the Sandman or knows who he is. Only wrestling fans know who the Sandman is. Roberts is a part of pop culture.

 

Yeah, Jake's cancer scare made TMZ and other mainstream sites. He has a movie coming out. My boss who doesn't watch wrestling would know who Jake Roberts is.

[Loss]

Seriously, that Baba quote is a treasure trove of discussion. What is the source of it?

[Matt D]

It's a damn shame that I don't know the name of a 1980s Japanese Actress of note or else I could make a Molly Ringwald joke.

[ohtani's jacket]

 

I'm sorry Jingus, but the idea of Jaquar Yokota watching an ECW tape is preposterous. I doubt she knew everything that was going on in the Japanese scene let alone the States. i dunno how you'd go about getting an ECW tape at the time. Maybe rent one from Champion. Can't see that happening. I don't think Nitro was ever on Japanese TV. WWE has been on satellite since I moved here, but I don't know about the 90s. I'd venture to say the majority of Japanese wrestlers exposure to American wrestlers was through Americans wrestling in Japan. There may be some exposure through magazines, but even then the women were probably more interested in Lady's Gong. The language barrier makes reading the Observer impossible. The magazine writers were probably more in tune with what was happening in the States. Don't forget, Joshi girls lived in a bubble of training, dorming, training, dorming, wrestling, training, dorming. When everyone was watching wrestling on terrestrial TV, they were out traveling and performing.

The thing is: every single thing you're listing, from the lack of legally-available tapes to the lack of foreign wrestling on television to the language barrier to being in a bubble: all that stuff applies just as well to American wrestlers watching Japanese stuff. Yet clearly they managed to do exactly that, a lot. "Watching Japanese tapes" was the most popular thing for young wrestlers in the late 90s to do together. Why would it work so differently in the other direction?

 

Because Japan didn't have dirt sheets. Instead, there were weekly magazines and coverage in the sports tabloids. And there wasn't a taping trading culture. People were wary of the legal aspects of it, and it was really only collectors who participated in it. And as I said, young wrestlers typically dormed together and followed a fairly rigorous regime. In the tape trading era, Japanese workers were always surprised that foreigners had seen their matches because tape trading wasn't a thing in Japan, and Japanese people in general always assume nobody knows a thing about Japanese entertainment outside of Japan.

[Jingus]

That the (proven true) possibility of somebody not knowing somebody else escapes your grasp is hilarious.

No, there's nothing funny about it at all, because I never fucking said that and you're either trolling me or just not paying attention. Is it entirely possible for Human Being #1 to be unaware of the existence of Human Being #2, regardless of their individual identities? OF FUCKING COURSE. Don't even try to pretend that's what I was saying. I just take issue with this weird idea that Japanese wrestlers would never ever EVER watch American wrestling.

 

Who was the Japanese equivalent to Dave Meltzer or even Herb Kunze, relentlessly reviewing and pimping American matches to Japanese fans?

I dunno, you tell me. But I refuse to share the weird implication being made in this thread that no such people could have possibly existed.

 

Also: guys, stop using the Jake Roberts comparison. Once again, try to pay attention, just a little, please? I never said Sandman's popularity was equal to Jake's. I said Sandman was just a similar type where their outside-the-hardcores fame was greater than it probably should've been, considering they're better known outside their own bubbles than a lot of other guys who were higher on the card or got pushed harder. (And how do all these completely-not-a-fan people even know who Jake is, considering that he rarely-if-ever did acting gigs or other outside-the-ring appearances? Where did they ever see him in the first place?)

[Jingus]

In the tape trading era, Japanese workers were always surprised that foreigners had seen their matches because tape trading wasn't a thing in Japan, and Japanese people in general always assume nobody knows a thing about Japanese entertainment outside of Japan.

Huh. Okay. I've never heard that before, but I guess you'd be the one here who'd know. I just assumed that any country with a booming wrestling business would come equipped with an equally booming subculture along the line of our own tape traders and sheet readers. So, I guess they fit the original topic of the thread REALLY well, being in a bubble that kept them even more isolated than happens to wrestlers in America.

[goc]

Holy shit, after Lariat got canned, Vince got a NEW account to post at PWO!

When you have to resort to this level of ridiculousness it's time to just stop.

[Jingus]

 

Holy shit, after Lariat got canned, Vince got a NEW account to post at PWO!

When you have to resort to this level of ridiculousness it's time to just stop.

 

Hell no, he's repeating and rewording a classic Vince talking point. "They chant E-C-W because I taught them to chant that!"

[goc]

Insinuating another poster is Vince McMahon is like the hallmark of really shitty wrestling arguments. Please Jingus come towards the light it's not your time to slip into making wrestlingforum.com level posts.

[WingedEagle]

 

 

I'm sorry Jingus, but the idea of Jaquar Yokota watching an ECW tape is preposterous. I doubt she knew everything that was going on in the Japanese scene let alone the States. i dunno how you'd go about getting an ECW tape at the time. Maybe rent one from Champion. Can't see that happening. I don't think Nitro was ever on Japanese TV. WWE has been on satellite since I moved here, but I don't know about the 90s. I'd venture to say the majority of Japanese wrestlers exposure to American wrestlers was through Americans wrestling in Japan. There may be some exposure through magazines, but even then the women were probably more interested in Lady's Gong. The language barrier makes reading the Observer impossible. The magazine writers were probably more in tune with what was happening in the States. Don't forget, Joshi girls lived in a bubble of training, dorming, training, dorming, wrestling, training, dorming. When everyone was watching wrestling on terrestrial TV, they were out traveling and performing.

The thing is: every single thing you're listing, from the lack of legally-available tapes to the lack of foreign wrestling on television to the language barrier to being in a bubble: all that stuff applies just as well to American wrestlers watching Japanese stuff. Yet clearly they managed to do exactly that, a lot. "Watching Japanese tapes" was the most popular thing for young wrestlers in the late 90s to do together. Why would it work so differently in the other direction?

 

Because Japan didn't have dirt sheets. Instead, there were weekly magazines and coverage in the sports tabloids. And there wasn't a taping trading culture. People were wary of the legal aspects of it, and it was really only collectors who participated in it. And as I said, young wrestlers typically dormed together and followed a fairly rigorous regime. In the tape trading era, Japanese workers were always surprised that foreigners had seen their matches because tape trading wasn't a thing in Japan, and Japanese people in general always assume nobody knows a thing about Japanese entertainment outside of Japan.

 

 

I always had the impression that Weekly Pro and Gong were MUCH bigger deals in Japan than PWI or any similar publications here. Is that correct? They definitely featured American wrestling at a level not even remotely comparable to how puro is/was covered stateside.

[ohtani's jacket]

 

In the tape trading era, Japanese workers were always surprised that foreigners had seen their matches because tape trading wasn't a thing in Japan, and Japanese people in general always assume nobody knows a thing about Japanese entertainment outside of Japan.

Huh. Okay. I've never heard that before, but I guess you'd be the one here who'd know. I just assumed that any country with a booming wrestling business would come equipped with an equally booming subculture along the line of our own tape traders and sheet readers. So, I guess they fit the original topic of the thread REALLY well, being in a bubble that kept them even more isolated than happens to wrestlers in America.

.

 

There was a subculture. Tokyo is a place that has wrestling memorabilia stores and wrestling themed restaurants after all. There were fan clubs that produced newsletters, and certainly hardcore collectors who hoarded over large private collections. The original JWP sold videos of its shows through mail order, so there was definitely a fan culture there. There was even fetish stuff out there. But there really wasn't anyone out there like Jeff Lynch, or the earliest Internet guys who sold his stuff. If you were a fan of an American worker such as Brody, you went to the shows, watched him on TV and read Japanese books and magazines about him. Only the most hardcore of fans would have sort out his overseas work. A lot of people just like to go to the shows as well, and don't participate in the fan culture.

 

I don't think you can overestimate the effect of the language barrier as well as the bubble that many Japanese people live in. Which isn't to say that there was no interest in overseas wrestling as there were VHS tapes available for sale and rent and a weekly TV show with clipped foreign wrestling, but it was all dubbed over or translated and made easier for consumption.

 

From our perspective tape trading was the only way to see Japanese wrestlers, but Japanese fans had constant exposure to touring Americans in a more accessible form for them. But the big difference is in terms of Japanese fans or wrestlers knowing about American workers outside of the top stars who visited Japan. I would be extremely surprised if the average hardcore knew who Brian Pillman was or Sean Waltman or Too Cold Scorpio the way we knew who Kiyoshi Tamura or Jun Akiyama were. That would really surprise me. I've met hardcore Japsnese fans who could rattle off just about any foreigner who toured Japan, but that was really where their knowledge was concentrated. It's cool as shit talking with Japanese rock musicians about Adrian Adonis and Dick Murdoch, but they're not gonna know a ton about Bill Dundee. Buddy Rose or Tracy Smothers. To be fair, the same is true for a lot of old time fans on the Internet who don't watch Japanese wrestling and maybe only know a handful of names. In that sense, the exposure among Japanese fans to American wrestlers is probably higher in general. I just think there was little exposure to ECW.

[Loss]

One thing that I've heard Dave talk about many times is that the Japanese companies have a tendency to copy American angles, especially the bad ones for whatever reason. The first time I heard him mention this was in 2000 when Aja Kong did something in ARSION to copy the Vince Russo-Hulk Hogan thing at Bash at the Beach. But I'm guessing there are other examples of that.

[GOTNW]

Interesting how Jingus had the courtesy of comparing me to a hateful homophobe because I disagreed with him over a pro wrestling thing he is clearly wrong about showcased by his shock at a norm of japanese isolationism everyone that is even remotely familiar with the culture is aware of. Lad-breathe in, breathe out and log off. No reason to start screaming at every single person that dares to have a different opinion than you-both here and at DVDVR. ECW died 14 years ago. Put that into perspective.

[ohtani's jacket]

 

 

 

I'm sorry Jingus, but the idea of Jaquar Yokota watching an ECW tape is preposterous. I doubt she knew everything that was going on in the Japanese scene let alone the States. i dunno how you'd go about getting an ECW tape at the time. Maybe rent one from Champion. Can't see that happening. I don't think Nitro was ever on Japanese TV. WWE has been on satellite since I moved here, but I don't know about the 90s. I'd venture to say the majority of Japanese wrestlers exposure to American wrestlers was through Americans wrestling in Japan. There may be some exposure through magazines, but even then the women were probably more interested in Lady's Gong. The language barrier makes reading the Observer impossible. The magazine writers were probably more in tune with what was happening in the States. Don't forget, Joshi girls lived in a bubble of training, dorming, training, dorming, wrestling, training, dorming. When everyone was watching wrestling on terrestrial TV, they were out traveling and performing.

The thing is: every single thing you're listing, from the lack of legally-available tapes to the lack of foreign wrestling on television to the language barrier to being in a bubble: all that stuff applies just as well to American wrestlers watching Japanese stuff. Yet clearly they managed to do exactly that, a lot. "Watching Japanese tapes" was the most popular thing for young wrestlers in the late 90s to do together. Why would it work so differently in the other direction?

 

Because Japan didn't have dirt sheets. Instead, there were weekly magazines and coverage in the sports tabloids. And there wasn't a taping trading culture. People were wary of the legal aspects of it, and it was really only collectors who participated in it. And as I said, young wrestlers typically dormed together and followed a fairly rigorous regime. In the tape trading era, Japanese workers were always surprised that foreigners had seen their matches because tape trading wasn't a thing in Japan, and Japanese people in general always assume nobody knows a thing about Japanese entertainment outside of Japan.

 

 

I always had the impression that Weekly Pro and Gong were MUCH bigger deals in Japan than PWI or any similar publications here. Is that correct? They definitely featured American wrestling at a level not even remotely comparable to how puro is/was covered stateside.

 

 

The magazines seem really impressive at first because they're at every kiosk and every convenience store and bookshop. The only time I can remember that happening overseas was when I was a kid and every bookshop carried the official WWF magazine along with all the Apter titles, and our local version of the TV guide, and one and only tabloid paper, carrying weekly wrestling inserts. Then you start to realis there's a million different magazines published in Japan about a million different subjects. The wrestling mags do have good distribution, though, even now. They're still visible at most kiosks and convenience stores. God knows who buys them. It's the newspaper coverage that is far less prestigious than we were led to believe when we heard that pro-wrestling was covered in the newspapers in Japan. Tokyo Sports is pretty trashy and Nikkan Sports isn't much better.

 

I have a stack of Weekly Pro Wrestling mags from 2009. That's well past the peak of Japanese wrestling mags, but I had a look through them and there wasn't much in the way of overseas coverage. There was a regular two page column about the US wrestling scene in 1996, weekly coverage about the goings on in Mexico, some historic pictures of Showa era stars and a bit of WWE news here and there. There was a four page spread for an upcoming WWE tour with profiles of the WWE wrestlers, but no real recaps of what was going on in ROH, WWE or TNA.

[Jingus]

Interesting how Jingus had the courtesy of comparing me to a hateful homophobe

Oh bullshit, don't twist my words and try to martyr up like that. My very last interaction with Lariat, just a few days ago, was hitting the similar (and admittedly lazy, but I don't care because I find it amusing) "holy shit, Vince posts on PWO!" response on him after he repeated another one of Vince's talking points. Hence the obviously-not-to-be-taken-literally wisecrack that you're both sock puppets of the same Higher Power.

 

a norm of japanese isolationism everyone that is even remotely familiar with the culture is aware of.

Show of hands: did EVERYONE know Japanese wrestlers never watched American tapes?

 

Lad

Hah, ah yes: whenever insulting someone in a polite-but-condescending fashion, always make sure to call them some variation of "kid". I'm a middle-aged man, and inaccurate insults aren't effective.