The Trial of Hulk Hogan (Podcast Question)

[JaymeFuture]

On this week's podcast we're returning to our trial format to debate whether or not Hulk Hogan's actions, throughout the course of his career, have caused irrepairable harm to the professional wrestling business, and we're looking for your thoughts on the subject, considering the following elements:

*His appearance on Arsenio Hall and resulting scandals
*His run in World Championship Wrestling and role in bringing the company down
*His stint in TNA and role in possibly hamstringing another potential alternative

 

To be clear, we are not debating the obvious positive impacts Hogan has had, just whether or not any of the above did irrepairable damage to the business as a whole.

As always we'll read the best contributions on the air and credit you accordingly, so what do you think, and why?

 

EDIT - The Hogan Trial, with many of the comments below discussed as "witness statements", is now online and available to listen to at the following link: http://squaredcirclegazette.podbean.com/mf/web/u2z4xr/SCGRadio54-TheTrialOfHulkHogan.mp3

[Beast]

His WCW run is interesting because it's generally regarded that WCW was doing peak work creatively around the time he came in and he and his friends proceeded to run that aspect into the ground over the next year and a half. But then you get the nWo stuff which totally made him interesting again and led to one of the highest peak runs by any promotion ever.

 

The question is:

 

Do we look at Hogan as someone who should have known when to say enough is enough, but didn't, leading to him running WCW into the ground for good?

 

OR

 

Is Hogan himself a chaotic force of nature who wouldn't have been able to rein in his negative tendencies no matter what? Does WCW get those nWo years simply in exchange for burning up shortly thereafter?

[SomethingSavage]

Anything in excess can be a detriment. That's not exclusive to Hogan. In the WWF, Vince had the sense and business acumen to take the wheel and steer things in a different direction when business got bad with Hulk growing stale on top. Eric never really seemed to grasp that concept with WCW once the nWo had run its course. Hard to fault him for various reasons, but that's what separates those with a mind for the business & those that have a hot marketing idea or once-in-a-lifetime promotional tactic to exploit - and then little else to offer.

 

Early nineties WCW was enjoyable to its die-hard fans, but it wasn't doing blockbuster business or anything. Hulk didn't change that, but - again - it's hard to fault anyone in the company for wanting to try something new to turn a big profit. Hogan was wrestling to the general public. To the mainstream man on the street. To the people that WEREN'T watching WCW at the time - the people they were looking to hook in.

Again, it goes back to excess. They didn't necessarily need to wipe the entire slate clean & bring in every Hogan crony along with Hulk, but is Hogan really to blame for them bowing & bending to his every whim or demand? The guy's gonna take whatever he can get.

 

And whatever negative waves he caused during that dreadful 94-95 period were washed away almost entirely by the MASSIVE business he did for them in late 96, 97, and the first half of 98. The nWo was such a significant factor in the Attitude Era and Monday Night Wars. And I don't see them becoming true water cooler talk without Hogan's name & rep attached to that money train. Hall and Nash were buzzworthy. But Hogan sent it over the top in a way that Savage, Sting, or Luger never would have done for them.

 

Seems sort of counterproductive to ONLY analyze the negatives. Doesn't this sort of border on confirmation bias from the very start, if you're not going to counter with the positives?

 

Always enjoy these Trial shows though. Hopefully you guys will give Hogan a fair shake. Looking forward to hearing how it all shakes out.

[Beast]

I don't see how 94/95 is washed away by 96-98 when right afterwards the company died. It's all part of the same long-term story of Hogan's star power being beneficial, but his selfishness (or at least lack of awareness of how to benefit the company as a whole and not just himself) brings about negativity in the long run.

[SomethingSavage]

That's not what happened though.

 

Hogan's negative influence wasn't something that gobbled them up in the long run. Hell, the stink of '94 and '95 was almost INSTANTLY visible. Business turned around for them - BIG TIME - with that 96 to 98 period. That's the "long run." That's what happened.

 

The downfall of WCW is what followed in the even LONGER run. Pinning all of that on Hogan's shoulders seems like a stretch, to say the very least.

 

Furthermore, I think Hulk showed that he's willing to play ball once he returned to the Fed in 2002 anyway. If anything, he took too many falls and losses during that return run. There's a noticeably different Hogan in effect when he's left to his own devices versus when he's not being allowed to call all his own shots.

 

But being selfish and unaware of what's always best for an entire company kind of goes hand-in-hand with being a top guy. Even Austin, at his peak, was paranoid and self-centered about what HE was doing - regardless of how it benefited (or hurt) anyone else. Cases could be made for almost anyone that worked on top, especially during periods of hot business.

 

He has absolutely shown that he's willing to do business when he's involved & it directly benefits him. Is it really Hogan's place or job to be mindful & thoughtful of everyone else's place, push, or position at all times? I don't think so. Hogan wasn't a booker or a promoter. He was a performer. He was talent. It's Bischoff and WCW that put him in a position to call his own shots. That stuff falls at the feet of Bischoff & company for their trail. But then, they've already done that episode.

[Beast]

I think we're both being too black and white at the very least.

 

Maybe he's not "THE" reason, but he played a large part in them falling apart starting in 1998.

[Mad Dog]

I think Kevin Nash has more to do with WCW dying than Hulk Hogan did.

 

Nash ended Goldberg's streak and beat Wrath in the build up to that. It was largely Nash's booking in the spring of 1999 that brought WCW to a complete halt momentum wise. Hogan was out with an injury for the period where WCW really fell apart. If you look at the 1999-2000 era where things really took a nosedive, Hogan wasn't there. He was back for about 2 months after the injury in 1999 and he was there for about 4 months in 2000.

 

And to the positives of Hogan. Even as late as 1999 he had a positive impact on the product. That Super Brawl match with Flair did huge PPV numbers, like top 5 in company history numbers.

[Beast]

Meltzer just posted on his board about how Nash beat Goldberg specifically to lose it to Hogan. Hogan was the reason that whole entire thing happened and Nash was given the book as a gift in turn.

 

Please tell me we aren't going to start pretending Hogan was not a major factor in WCW's fall. Come on, seriously.

[Mad Dog]

He was a factor but I think Nash and Russo were far bigger factors in the grand scheme of things.

[Loss]

Hogan was absolutely a factor, but he had a level of creative control in his contract that would stifle anyone trying to run the company without figuring him in as the top star. And 1998 was the year to start moving on from him as the number one guy, especially when Goldberg fell in their lap, but that was the year they signed him to a new deal with all the same perks. Good on Hogan for negotiating that, but I'm not sure people realize that in doing so, WCW ostensibly gave Hogan full control of the creative direction of the company as long as he worked there.

[Beast]

BTW, there's a preview out of Bischoff's interview for the new WWE Monday Night Wars Volume 2 DVD and in it he states that Hogan NEVER used his creative control to refuse to do something until Bash At The Beach 2000.

[JerryvonKramer]

Blaming Hogan is like blaming a lion who bites your hand off if you put it in its mouth.

 

It's not Hogan's fault.

 

If the inmates take over the asylum you can't blame the inmates.

[Mad Dog]

Blaming Hogan is like blaming a lion who bites your hand off if you put it in its mouth.

 

It's not Hogan's fault.

 

If the inmates take over the asylum you can't blame the inmates.

I actually agree with this. Hogan is just being Hogan and the problem comes in when promoters aren't telling him no.

[Beast]

OK, but this show isn't about "Who Killed WCW?"

 

Does Hogan deserve any knocks for his actions in WCW? I think so, regardless of Bischoff and Co. giving him too much stroke. He doesn't get a free pass because he was allowed to wreak havoc.

[Loss]

I think it's also a false binary. Hogan insisted on creative decisions that were part of WCW's decline. Hogan never should have been given that power in the first place. Both of those things are true.

[Mad Dog]

I think he deserves blame. WCW didn't have the leadership to keep him in check and went along with decisions that killed the company.

[Beast]

I think it's also a false binary. Hogan insisted on creative decisions that were part of WCW's decline. Hogan never should have been given that power in the first place. Both of those things are true.

 

 

And that's a negative about Hogan for this topic. Sure, many wrestlers may have done a disservice to the company as a whole in order to book themselves strong, but the fact that Hogan does it so consistently ranging from WWF 1992/1993 to WCW 1994/1995 to WCW 1998/1999 to WWE 2005 to TNA says a lot about him overall.

 

Whether or not he should have been given the power is a different question entirely.

[Jingus]

Furthermore, I think Hulk showed that he's willing to play ball once he returned to the Fed in 2002 anyway. If anything, he took too many falls and losses during that return run. There's a noticeably different Hogan in effect when he's left to his own devices versus when he's not being allowed to call all his own shots.

That's not Hogan being willing to play ball; that's Hogan, for the first time in two decades, being caught without leverage. WCW was dead, TNA didn't exist yet, and a couple of other attempts at anti-Vince competition had failed miserably. Hogan rarely goes for more than a couple of years without making sure to show up on wrestling TV to remind the fans that he's still here, but at that time he had nowhere to go. For the only time in his post-AWA career, he was stuck in a situation where he didn't have any negotiating power. The WWF had an entire roster overfilled with hot young stars, they didn't need Hogan.

[Carnival]

I think it's a mistake to focus on whatever specific "creative control" clause Hogan had in his contract. At his level of fame and star power, he was going to rule the roost regardless of what the contract said. Especially in an environment where no one knew which way was up. I doubt Austin had any creative control clause - at least in the initial stages of his boom - but I also doubt he ever had to do anything he really didn't want to do. And when he finally did, we saw how he handled it. This is the danger of having a star who outshines the company, a situation WWE is clearly eager to avoid repeating. Of course, that has its own problems.

[C.S.]

*His appearance on Arsenio Hall and resulting scandals

 

This surely didn't help, but business was in the toilet anyway. IMO, the effect this had was negligible at best. The WWF simply wasn't a hot product anymore, period.

 

*His run in World Championship Wrestling and role in bringing the company down

 

I know we aren't supposed to talk about the good, but he did more good than bad. Was he even around in very end anyway? Without the Hogan heel turn, WCW doesn't get all of those curious casual fans tuning in to find out what the hell just happened, and the nWo would've been just another group squashed by Starrcade. I think it's silly to blame him for the demise of WCW when that company had a million and one other problems that brought it down.

 

*His stint in TNA and role in possibly hamstringing another potential alternative

 

Hulk didn't help much, but TNA management was inept before him and after him. Can't see how Hulk reasonably takes the blame for incompetence that both predates and postdates his involvement.

[Loss]

The story of Hogan's career is one of a guy who had huge rises and devastating falls. Lying on Arsenio Hall sent the WWF (and as a result, the entire wrestling business) into a tailspin that they didn't really fully recover from until the rise of Steve Austin in the late 90s. In the case of raping and pillaging WCW, wrestling still hasn't fully recovered from that one, and likely never will be as healthy as it was then.

[Gregor]

I think it's a mistake to focus on whatever specific "creative control" clause Hogan had in his contract. At his level of fame and star power, he was going to rule the roost regardless of what the contract said. Especially in an environment where no one knew which way was up. I doubt Austin had any creative control clause - at least in the initial stages of his boom - but I also doubt he ever had to do anything he really didn't want to do. And when he finally did, we saw how he handled it. This is the danger of having a star who outshines the company, a situation WWE is clearly eager to avoid repeating. Of course, that has its own problems.

The two of them didn't use their power in the same ways. Austin occasionally refused to do jobs, but at times it felt like all WCW booking meetings must have started with, "Okay, guys, we've got some promising programs going on up and down our cards. How do we get Hogan in on them?"

[JerryvonKramer]

It wasn't just Hogan fucking over WCW though, everyone did it. Savage did it. Nash. Hall. Sid. Every fucker who was there.

 

If Vince had been in control, none of it would have ever happened. Vince had basically the SAME locker room and it didn't happen. There were politics and backbiting, sure, and issues and problems -- but Vince was the boss, and if push came to shove, guys were shown the door (straight to WCW).

 

Bischoff and WCW management much much more to blame for everything in WCW than Hogan.

 

Was Hogan a selfish asshole? Yes. Did Hogan think more about himself than the interests of his company? Yes. Was Hogan also the biggest star in the history of wrestling? Yes.

 

Should he have done more jobs? Probably as a heel, he should have. Should he have put over Sting clean? Definitely. But these are little things. Overall, he just behaved exactly as you would expect someone in his position to.

 

Vince always knew these things. He understood "the boys". He understood Hogan. Kevin Sullivan understood those things too, but Kevin Sullivan wasn't the boss. Even Eric Biscoff wasn't "the boss". There were a million bosses.

 

TNA? lol

[JaymeFuture]

I want to thank everybody for the contributions, the Trial of Hulk Hogan is now online to listen to at the following link:

http://squaredcirclegazette.podbean.com/mf/web/u2z4xr/SCGRadio54-TheTrialOfHulkHogan.mp3

With Hulk Hogan facing the charge of causing irreparable harm to the wrestling business, the prosecution and defence go to war talking Hogan's negative impact on the WWF with his Arsenio Hall appearance, his role in bringing down WCW from its apex, and impact on the course of TNA's life. We talk steroids, sex, politics, burials, money and incompetence, and take your witness statements to determine whether or not Hogan is guilty. The fifth of the SCG Trials and a really fun show, check it out and let us know what you think of the verdict!

[dawho5]

I thought the five of you did great work with this. Both sides presented well-reasoned arguments and I feel like the verdict was right. I was also very impressed with the use of TNA as a way to show Hogan's pattern and reinforce earlier points rather than any kind of damning evidence in and of itself.

 

My feeling is that Hogan was the lynch pin, but Bischoff's lack of any kind of control and Nash's selfishness and negligence only compounded the problem. Add in the fact that WCW had been a case of the inmates running the asylum for some time and I think we've got it. Ultimately it is impossible to lay the blame at the feet of any one person, but I think Hogan takes the lion's share.