Fair for Flair: a mini-series

[Childs]

I remember very much thinking the opposite was true for the Mid South set. In fact, in real time, people who were trucking along at a quick pace seemed to slow way down when confronted with long Flair matches, and were less enthusiastic about watching than they had been to that point. So if he skewed high, I personally don't think it was familiarity bias at work, because people didn't seem too excited about watching his matches when they came along. I wish the threads still existed so I could link to them to support that.

Actually, I think that's where it started. People bitched about how boring the Flair-Terry Taylor matches were in the threads, but then they all finished top 30 in the voting.

[KrisZ]

That is definitely where it all started was on the Mid-South set with the Taylor matches in particular......I thought Flair/Bock was fun and needed to be on the set but it was 50% of the match and it finished absurdly high mainly because of who was in it.

[JerryvonKramer]

That one finishing at 21 is a bit weird. I just had a look and I had it at 79, ***1/2

 

Seems like with DVDR voting, that there are more guys who vote than who post a lot. Internet is meant to have a 1:10 rule. For every one person who posts / contributes, there are about 10 "lurkers". Seems in the case of DVDR, the lurkers were high on Flair vs. Bock / Taylor.

 

I had a talk with Will about some stuff earlier and he mentioned that a lot of stuff is ironed out in voting. Even if there are outliers, the average pushes consensus picks to top. As in, let's say Matt D hated Rockers vs. Rose and Somers, cage. It still had a high finish.

 

I'm kind of interested in the idea of Flair being some sort of pattern anomaly. Then again, my memory of mid-south set watchers is that some people were high on Terry Taylor at that time. I was hating him, and people kept telling me "keep watching". Could partly account for top 30 finishes on those ones.

[goc]

I'm not staking a position on this issue because I haven't thought about it with any care, but there was a feeling among the DVDVR committees that Flair matches skewed high in the final rankings because of Flair's fame/familiarity. Do with that what you will, but it's not a new talking point.

That's certainly the only explanation I have for that Terry Taylor/Flair match finishing in the top 20.

 

Koko/Flair doesn't stand out in memory to me at all from the Memphis set while the vast majority of the highly ranked Lawler stuff still does. I definitely think there is something to the idea that Flair matches got over rated on the sets released so far, at least their final rankings relative to where I had them on MY ballot. Including Magnum/Flair from AWA.

 

The only Flair match from the Mid-South set that stood out to me as really great was the one with Jake Roberts and that was because it deviated so much from the "Flair formula" and didn't go super long.

[goodhelmet]

Parv completely misinterpreted my point. My argument using Bigelow and Rude, Bundy etc. was that Lawler was a better broomstick worker. Lawler still had classics with great wrestlers like Dundee (for 4 decades), Funk, Bock, Mantel, Tommy Rich, etc.

 

For example, do I think that the Dundee series is as good as Flair-Steamboat? In my view, absolutely!!!! Include the build to the matches and I will take Dundee-Lawler every single day of the week without missing a beat.

 

Here is a list of matches Phil has labelled as Epic in his own rating system. I haven't seen all of them but it isn't like Lawler doesn't have a large range of great matches. This doesn't include the greatest matches from Lawler on the 80s sets. It has tons of indy stuff, I'll let Phil explain his rating system but the idea that Lawler doesn't have his stash of great matches isn't something I believe to be true...

 

Jerry Lawler v. Harley Race CWA 12/10/77-EPIC

Jerry Lawler v. Jerry Jarrett late 1979 –EPIC

Jerry Lawler v. Crusher Blackwell CWA 5/14/81-EPIC

Jerry Lawler v. Dutch Mantell CWA 3/22/82-EPIC

Jerry Lawler/Randy Savage v. King Kong Bundy/Ric Rude CWA 9/17/84-EPIC

Jerry Lawler v. Randy Savage CWA 6/3/85-EPIC

Jerry Lawler/Bill Dundee v. Original Midnight Express AWA 10/30/87-EPIC

Jerry Lawler v. Tommy Rich SPW 10/2/88-EPIC

Jerry Lawler v. Eric Embry USWA 9/8/89-EPIC

Jerry Lawler v. Eric Embry USWA 4/26/91-EPIC

Jerry Lawler v. Goldust WWF 5/26/97-EPIC

Jerry Lawler v. Steve Corino JAPW 8/10/02 –EPIC

Jerry Lawler v. Kamala JAPW 1/18/03-EPIC

Jerry Lawler v. Joey Mercury NEW 11/3/07-EPIC

Jerry Lawler v. Michael Sane NEW 3/15/08 - EPIC

Jerry Lawler v. Michael Sane NEW 4/19/08 - EPIC

Jerry Lawler/Chris Michaels v. Bull Pain/Todd Morton XCW-Midwest 8/9/08-EPIC

Jerry Lawler v. Tommy Dreamer NEW 1/15/11-EPIC

Jerry Lawler/Brian Christopher v. Bill Dundee/Jamie Dundee Evansville 3/2/11-EPIC

Jerry Lawler v. Terry Funk NEW 10/1/11-EPIC

Jerry Lawler/Brian Christopher v. Derrick King/Precious WFW 6/2/12-EPIC

[Johnny Sorrow]

Well of course the Lawler / Dundee trilogy is better than the Flair/ Steamboat trilogy. You'd have to be a fucking moron to think otherwise. 😎

[JerryvonKramer]

Seems like it is fair game for Lawler advocates to be militant in their views.

 

Parv completely misinterpreted my point.

"Completely"? I mentioned the Mantell and Bam Bam matches because they finished top 10.

 

1. Jerry Lawler vs. Bill Dundee (Loser Leaves Town) (6/6/83) [EWY-6] - 7216 points.

2. Jerry Lawler vs. Bill Dundee (No DQ, Loser Leaves Town) (12/30/85) [EYETIGER-10] - 7114 points.

3. Jerry Lawler vs. Terry Funk (No DQ) (3/23/81) [bADNEWS-9] - 6926 points.

4. Jerry Lawler vs. Dutch Mantell (Barbed Wire Match) (3/29/82) [bLUESKIES-8] - 6867 points.

5. Jerry Lawler vs. Dutch Mantell (No DQ) (3/22/82) [bLUESKIES-6] - 6724 points.

6. Jerry Lawler vs. Austin Idol (Hair vs. Hair, Steel Cage Match) (4/27/87) [MEMPTENN-4] - 6683 points.

7. Jerry Lawler vs. Bill Dundee (No DQ, Loser Leaves Town) (7/14/86) [EYETIGER-13] - 6506 points.

8. Koko Ware vs. Ric Flair (11/18/85) [EYETIGER-9] - 6401 points.

9. Jerry Lawler vs. Bam Bam Bigelow (Texas Death) (9/7/86) [MEMPTENN-1] - 6017 points.

10. Jerry Lawler vs. Randy Savage (Loser Leaves Town) (6/3/85) [WARMACH-14] - 5961 points.

 

Unless of course voters were overrating these matches as they were with other ones ...

 

My point is that I'm not sure those matches vs. Funk and Mantell would really threaten Flair's top 20. Are they the equivalent of Flair's matches with Garvin, Windham, Luger, etc?

 

I don't see the Lawler list as truly being equal to the sorts of lists Flair, All Japan crew and others can put up. Like that Funk No DQ match is very good, it ranked #3 there, but I had that at ****1/2 (as an example, though it did make my all time Top 100 in the high 90s*) -- I had Mantell 3/29/82 at ****1/2, and had Mantell No DQ 3/22/82 much lower -- was *** only (see reviews here) -- whereas the Flair matches I'm talking about are all ****3/4+.

 

It might come down to the fact that you and Phil and others DO think Lawler vs. Funk is ****3/4+, or that you do think the matches with Mantell break the ****1/2 barrier. Or that you don't have Flair's greatest hits at ****3/4+. And if you do / don't, that's fine, we are rating those matches differently.

 

We're back to the nature of subjectivity and there's no way around that. In my view, based on the stuff I've seen so far and what is touted as high-end, I don't think Lawler is putting up a list of matches as great as other candidates in the 1-5 conversation (Flair, Jumbo, Misawa, Kawada, Hansen, etc.) if people are pointing to the Mantell and Funk ones as absolute top end. If you do think Mantell matches are in ****3/4+ range, I'd love to read reviews laying out why.

 

I will be watching and reviewing matches vs. Dundee, Savage, Bundy, Idol, Rich etc. in the coming months as I work through rest of 80s Memphis. I will give honest opinion as always.

 

I think the nature of this particular disagreement boils down to exactly where we are rating the matches. Hope this is clear. It's like I've got a Bob Dylan and I'm saying "Freewheelin, Bringing it All Back Home, Highway 61, Blonde on Blonde, John Wesley Harding, Blood on the Tracks -- all five star: GOAT. And you come back at me with someone else (I'm purposefully not giving an example) and I'm saying "well I don't know if this back catalogue holds up, this isn't five star, that isn't five star, I don't know if he can hold up to Dylan, the albums don't seem to be on that sort of level".

 

* EDIT: If interested, I had Lawler vs. Funk at #96 on that list. I dug the hell out of Lawler vs. Dory too, which I have slightly higher at #92 (still ****1/2 for me though), and looking at DVDR rankings would have been the high vote on it.

[goodhelmet]

I'm coming back at you with Tommy and Who's Next.

[Loss]

I had Flair-Taylor at #1 on my Mid South ballot, which I guess shouldn't surprise anyone. But I like epics, and most of the Mid South stuff (not all) felt more like hot TV matches than long, classic matches that just slow build and slow build and slow build to a hot finishing stretch. I realize those types of matches aren't as fashionable anymore, but I still prefer them to anything else. And I think that even gets to the heart of a lot of the Flair fatigue. There are outliers like Bockwinkel-Hennig, but there is generally speaking less value put on having compelling matches that go an hour than there used to be. Flair made his case in a time when people really cared about being able to go long. It doesn't seem like as much of a value anymore. That's probably good in some ways, because we've moved on from the idea that long matches are always great. But I'd still take a great long match over a great short one just because I want to feel like I've been taken on a ride.

[Cross Face Chicken Wing]

Now people are creating a "Flair matches finished too high in DVDVR voting due to bias toward Flair" talking point? C'mon, ya'll. The results are the results.

 

I'm all for giving Flair the extra scrutiny he's been receiving around here lately. The best of the best always to deal with more arrows than the rest. But let's not get silly about it.

[goc]

Now people are creating a "Flair matches finished too high in DVDVR voting due to bias toward Flair" talking point? C'mon, ya'll. The results are the results.

 

I'm all for giving Flair the extra scrutiny he's been receiving around here lately. The best of the best always to deal with more arrows than the rest. But let's not get silly about it.

The point still stands that the actual discussion about those matches would not have all led you to believe they were going to finish in the top 20. There was a whole lot of hating on the Flair/Taylor series and talk about how the Reed/Flair matches went too long.

[Cross Face Chicken Wing]

 

Now people are creating a "Flair matches finished too high in DVDVR voting due to bias toward Flair" talking point? C'mon, ya'll. The results are the results.

 

I'm all for giving Flair the extra scrutiny he's been receiving around here lately. The best of the best always to deal with more arrows than the rest. But let's not get silly about it.

The point still stands that the actual discussion about those matches would not have all led you to believe they were going to finish in the top 20. There was a whole lot of hating on the Flair/Taylor series and talk about how the Reed/Flair matches went too long.

 

 

How many voters participated in those discussions? And how many enjoyed the matches, didn't feel like wading into an online discussion about them, and voted them high?

[goodhelmet]

With the old DVDVR board going down we can't really answer that question.

[Childs]

Now people are creating a "Flair matches finished too high in DVDVR voting due to bias toward Flair" talking point? C'mon, ya'll. The results are the results.

 

I'm all for giving Flair the extra scrutiny he's been receiving around here lately. The best of the best always to deal with more arrows than the rest. But let's not get silly about it.

Again, no one is creating the talking point in 2015. It was there from the moment the Mid-South results dropped.

[goodhelmet]

I also want to emphasize that with very few historical exceptions (Tiger Mask vs Dynamite is the easy example), the nominating committee on the DVDVR project selected the matches we enjoyed most. It wasn't like we were anti-Flair going in. We liked the Flair matches and made sure they were included on the sets. They are in our opinion., the Best of the Best of the available footage at the time. That includes Flair matches. It includes Lawler matches. It includes some Brody and Dory Funk matches even though those guys suck. The idea there is an inherent anti-Flair movement in the DVDVR process is definitely not true.

[KrisZ]

Absolutely......if they didn't deserve to be on the set they would've have been there it's the placement of some matches which always seemed way too high to a lot of us when the votes came back.

[Matt D]

Regal vs Buck was there to punish us because you guys had to watch so many of those matches.

[JerryvonKramer]

I also want to emphasize that with very few historical exceptions (Tiger Mask vs Dynamite is the easy example), the nominating committee on the DVDVR project selected the matches we enjoyed most. It wasn't like we were anti-Flair going in. We liked the Flair matches and made sure they were included on the sets. They are in our opinion., the Best of the Best of the available footage at the time. That includes Flair matches. It includes Lawler matches. It includes some Brody and Dory Funk matches even though those guys suck. The idea there is an inherent anti-Flair movement in the DVDVR process is definitely not true.

 

I don't think anyone has suggested that even for a moment.

[KrisZ]

It actually did deserve to be on the set though....there weren't any on the cutting block that had enough support to knock it off

[Matt D]

It actually did deserve to be on the set though....there weren't any on the cutting block that had enough support to knock it off

 

149 is a nice round number.

[Childs]

Kris is so fair-minded that he actually used a personal pick on a Brody match.

[Cross Face Chicken Wing]

 

I also want to emphasize that with very few historical exceptions (Tiger Mask vs Dynamite is the easy example), the nominating committee on the DVDVR project selected the matches we enjoyed most. It wasn't like we were anti-Flair going in. We liked the Flair matches and made sure they were included on the sets. They are in our opinion., the Best of the Best of the available footage at the time. That includes Flair matches. It includes Lawler matches. It includes some Brody and Dory Funk matches even though those guys suck. The idea there is an inherent anti-Flair movement in the DVDVR process is definitely not true.

I don't think anyone has suggested that even for a moment.

 

 

Absolutely not. The nominating process was as close to perfect as anything like that is going to get. I wouldn't change one thing about the process, or the people involved in the process. And there definitely isn't an anti-Flair movement in the DVDVR process.

 

All I'm saying is, I don't think it's fair to raise the "bias toward Flair" talker (whether it was born in the original discussions or now) when breaking down the results. The results are the results. Implying that pro-Flair bias skewed some results sounds like sour grapes from folks whose more non-mainstream favorites didn't fare quite as well as they would have liked.

[goodhelmet]

The observation is that the ratings did not match the discussion.

[Loss]

I was advocating pretty hard for the Flair matches in the threads at the time, but yeah, I was almost a lone voice. I wish I knew who my followers were so I could use them for my personal gain

[JerryvonKramer]

I'm coming back at you with Tommy and Who's Next.