Debunking A Popular Flairism

[The Following Contest]

"If Jim Crockett has stayed east of the mississippi, he'd still be in business today."

 

Really? His financial troubles were more travel related than they were spending more than he was bringing in related?

[DR Ackermann]

Whether its true or not, he's saying that they expanded too fast and lost focus on what made them successful. They had a much larger fanbase in the south than anywhere else, and spent more money on shows that would make them less money. There are plenty of other factors that lead to their demise, of course.

[goc]

The idea is that they could make more money running the Greensboro Coliseum than flying all the guys out to Chicago and drawing a similar or even slightly smaller crowd just because someone felt it made them seem more "big time" to run in a larger market.

[MikeCampbell]

Cornette tells a great story in 1989 Timeline, where they drew a record low house in Greensboro because they ran it on a Wednesday night. When he asked Joe Pedicino why hell they did that, Joe told him that they had to save the weekend shows for the big towns like Philly. So, Jim showed him just what kind of houses they were drawing in Greensboro, even just the year before and Pedicino was flabbergasted.

[JerryvonKramer]

I understand the rationale of Flair's argument on this. Jim Cornette has made a similar argument in the past.

 

Let's say they just stuck to the old JCP route, didn't relocate an office to Dallas. Ran the loop across what was essentially the old Mid-Atlantic and Georgia territories, plus Florida (I assume Flair would be okay with running old Eddie Graham towns), you then have what is effectively a super territory with a loyal crowd base to draw from again and again.

 

I see the logic.

 

The problem is, and the big question is ... if they'd have done that, would people watching the WWF product on TV have stayed loyal to NWA or would they perceive it as "small time" because they were only running in the south east?

 

I think the idea from the promoters to "go national" was to mitigate against the charge of being parochial or small time. If they'd have stuck to the loop Flair proposed, would he have been perceived as "the world champ" or "the champion of the area between Greensboro, Atlanta and the pan-handle"?

[El McKell]

It's not just the issue of not appearing small time, but also by not trying to go national you will gradually lose your big stars to WWF who can pay them more.

The model that these guys are suggesting doesn't seem so different to me than what the AWA did, and although they lasted longer than almost every other territory; they still went under eventually.

[JerryvonKramer]

It's not just the issue of not appearing small time, but also by not trying to go national you will gradually lose your big stars to WWF who can pay them more.

 

The model that these guys are suggesting doesn't seem so different to me than what the AWA did, and although they lasted longer than almost every other territory; they still went under eventually.

I think Flair's idea is that by running those old loops instead of expanding, they'd have run just as many dates, made just as much money, and cut down severely on costs.

 

And the big argument for being perceived as national as opposed to small-time is ... TBS. They had the TV slot to appear bigger than they were.

 

They could have expanded in perception without actually running extra towns, just increase popularity through the TV.

 

HOWEVER ...

 

- Does Crockett still get bought by Turner if they hadn't have gone national / bought out Watts?

- And if not, can Crockett compete with Vince in paying the guys?

- Does Flair himself jump in 1988 if Turner buyout doesn't happen?

[goc]

Crockett was already offering big time contracts before the Turner buyout. It just so happened that he offered them with "balloon payments" at the end of the deal on whatever money hadn't been paid out and when it came time to make those big payouts, business was down and the money wasn't there. Whether he'd have actually been able to make those big payments if business hadn't dropped off and they hadn't gotten stupid about expenses, I'm not really sure.

[JerryvonKramer]

From my understanding it was Crockett inflating the paychecks, not Vince.

 

Vince brought in guaranteed downsides and bigger pay to counter Crockett.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong.

[Loss]

There's probably a parallel worth talking about in the struggle of local wrestling next to small towns across America losing a lot of their local charm and just becoming a repeating loop of McDonald's and Wal-Mart.

[thebrainfollower]

I think though some things in the booking would also have had to change. By very late 88 it's clear even those areas were burned out by Dusty and the Horsemen and the Dusty Finish. Flair-Steamboat and Flair-Funk didn't do the kind of numbers that were needed for Crockett to keep going. I think Flair might be right that there's enough territory in the Carolinas, Virginia AND Florida, Texas and the Mid South/UWF region to keep going. But that's still a lot of travel and still would have required some financial discipline on the part of Dusty and Crockett.

 

And probably would have required something to shake up the main event scene such as Luger winning the title at GAB 88 and seeing if that helps draw a house.

 

The basic idea I think has a point and is by no means in the top 50 absurd Ric Flair claims, but at the same time they could not have just repeated everything in 86-87 forever.

 

Don't think Vince brought in guaranteed downsides for years later Parv. Maybe Hogan had one, but given his merch money, did he need one?

[JerryvonKramer]

^ Brain, I think Flair would include Florida but not Texas or Watts country. I think he mentions a particular river down there they should have stayed east of.

[goc]

They didn't need to go into Texas or Watts country. They could have run all the places in Ohio that GCW started running under Ole, along with Philly & Balitmore which were two cities that they did well in. Add in Florida & Georgia to the natural Mid-Atlantic territory of Virginia & the Carlonas and there was still enough ground to run split crew shows that could run on sort of a "loop" without having to go crazy with airfare.

[thebrainfollower]

Philly, Baltimore, Ohio, Florida and Georgia certainly would be easier to travel to than Mid South and Texas. I stand corrected.

[jdw]

JCP would still have gone out of business.

 

If you walk through Cornette's MX book, you can see the business cycling up and down. Corny himself points out to shows going down with stale programs even in 1987, then picking back up. At some point without an regular infusions of top talent, the crowds go down.

 

Which is common with every territory ever.

 

The talent infusion would have two issues:

 

* lack of territories developing new stars

* Vince buying up talent, not just from JCP but from others that were being developed

 

JCP never got another "new" main event guy who hadn't already cycled nationally after Lex and to a degree Sting (who was more a "blossomed" beyond expectations rather than signed and/or developed). Vince himself eventually ran into the issue, and he was strongly looking for main eventers initially to compliment Hogan and later to be the Next Hogan.

 

If you look at the landscape, there really weren't a lot of guys post-Lex that could have come in to anchor the top. Certainly not ones who would fit what JCP fans were coming out for when crowds were up. At some point, even if the company were as well booked in 1987-88 as it was in 1986, it would have hit a down turn. Upticks would have more likely been limited ones (like Flair vs Lex in 1988) rather than sustained ones like 1986. Unless they pulled several miracles out of their ass. Just not at all likely.

[JerryvonKramer]

jdw, in the scenario that they don't buy out Watts, do you see any possibility of a DiBiase JCP run? And would it have helped their fortunes at all?

[jdw]

I would have let Watts die and cherry pick his talent, with Ted being the key one. But it's as likely that Vince would have cherry picked him anyway.

 

Could he have helped? Short term. He's not a successor to Flair and Dusty on top, instead being someone of their generation. At a certain point you run out of fresh things to do with him that help draw money. Happened in the WWF: he was threw as a drew after the runs with Hogan and Savage. The WWF was able to run those programs longer than JCP would as well given how they ran house shows and programs. JCP would have burned through things fairly fast.

 

To continue drawing like they did in 1986, and in *spurts* in 1987 & 1988, they would have needed a regular flow of talent and/or the ability to have more Stings pop up. Talent that worked in an NWA drawing way rather than a Hogan Opponent way. Hogan could draw with Kimala or Bundy or Quake. JCP isn't going to draw with those types of guys opposite Flair, or opposite Lex in a major US Title feud helping draw like MX vs R'n'R did.

 

It's a real dilemma to book it out without a flow of talent. We can fantasy book, and I'm sure that several folks have over the years all the way back to the time. I did when I was watching it. But things like Savage coming in, or Ted staying fresh for a couple of years in a top drawing spot... it's hard if one is looking at it realistically.

[Sean Liska]

Why has WWE been able to draw a consistent level of attendance under Cena for ten years? Lack of alternatives? Or just that they aren't peaking at as high of a level?

[jdw]

How consistent has it been?

 

The also work a very limited schedule, two nights a week that are TV (which likely on average over those 10 years draw higher than non-TV and non-PPV) along with a monthly PPV (again a likely ratings spike). They come to town a few times a year rather than running the Garden weekly or how ever many times JCP ran Charlotte and Greensboro in 1986. It's really a much different business model.

 

Add in that the talent around Cena has changed over the years. There has been an influx/change of talent over the years.

[Sean Liska]

Cena was very much helped by only coming to town twice a year as a special occasion. Very different from coming back every month and your gate depending on the heat of your main event program.

[Jingus]

JCP would have eventually burned out all those Southern towns if they ran them regularly enough. In the modern era, the sad truth is that no territory managed to keep its home-base towns healthy over the long term. Memphis used to draw 11,000 at the Coliseum every Monday night, but they eventually went bankrupt too. The "Crockett would still be in business today" myth presumes that those towns would stay permanently hot for the JCP product over the course of multiple decades. In the 21st century, that simply ain't gonna happen. There's too many alternative sources for entertainment today in places like Greensboro which didn't exist back in the mid-80s.

[jdw]

Cena was very much helped by only coming to town twice a year as a special occasion. Very different from coming back every month and your gate depending on the heat of your main event program.

 

They run a schedule very much based on the weekends based for "regular house shows" (running Fri-Sat), then tv tapings on Mon-Tue. They do run some split crew nights, but I don't know if the data is available to do a really good analysis of all of the implications.

 

Overall, my thought it the schedule is far more conducive to sustaining things. Greensboro had at least 16 shows in 1986, and Charlotte was probably in the same range.

 

I get that some areas like Memphis ran weekly. But Memphis itself went down.

[jdw]

JCP would have eventually burned out all those Southern towns if they ran them regularly enough. In the modern era, the sad truth is that no territory managed to keep its home-base towns healthy over the long term. Memphis used to draw 11,000 at the Coliseum every Monday night, but they eventually went bankrupt too. The "Crockett would still be in business today" myth presumes that those towns would stay permanently hot for the JCP product over the course of multiple decades. In the 21st century, that simply ain't gonna happen. There's too many alternative sources for entertainment today in places like Greensboro which didn't exist back in the mid-80s.

 

Yep.

 

I think as Kriz and I walked through in the Vince & Hogan vs The World thread, Vince always was going to go into Florida and would have some success there. He was running in the state right from 1984. He had mixed success, but Vince & Hogan is what killed of CWF. JCP bought CWF after Vince already effectively "won" Florida. The best JCP ever was going to do in the state after that was a "push" similar to how they ran in Philly, Baltimore and Chicago. Which is perfectly fine business, unless you're squeezed into bad arenas. I don't know a ton about the secondary arenas of the era for Florida, if the WWF had been able to get exclusives in the best one in each major metro.

 

I think we talked in that thread that JCP's best chance would have been earlier if they could have:

 

* gotten a merger with GCW before it completely fell on its ass

* gotten a merger with CWF when it was clear Vince was expanding and FL would be a target

 

We may have bounced around a few other "natural fits" for JCP in the 1984-85 range, though I'm drawing a blank on ones better than GCW and CWF. They also would have needed to be smart to *not* run them as individual territories and instead combine them into a super territory. Split crews would have been fine, but even the WWF had issues drawing in even major towns when doing Hogan Cards vs Non-Hogan Cards. You need a lot of hot issues, or people will skip the R'n'R vs MX + Magnum card and instead wait for Flair's turn to be in town.

[JerryvonKramer]

You'd think with Dusty on the roster, JCP would have no problem drawing in Florida. But then I wonder how much Florida was already burned out on Dusty ...

[goc]

Dusty tried to restart the Florida territory after getting fired from JCP and before going to WWF. It didn't draw.

 

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