Which luchadores are you ranking?

[Quentin Skinner]

Locks:

Sangre Chicana

Pirata Morgan

El Dandy

El Satanico

Negro Casas

Virus

Rey Mysterio Jr.

El Hijo Del Santo

 

Between El Satanico and Negro Casas, I don't know which one will be my highest ranked luchadore.

 

People on the bubble:

Atlantis - leaning towards him making it

MS-1

Mocho Cota

Psicosis

Juvetud Guerrera

Blue Panther

Perro Aguayo

[JerryvonKramer]

Now everything is in and over, even though me including Casas in my top 10, Cota and Dandy in my top 50 was more "honest" than leaving them out, I still think it's slightly more damning and problematic for me to have included them and not Santo, Satanico or Blue Panther. To me it still looks more like an indictment of Lucha than an endorsement.

 

I've struggled also to find intelligent debate about Lucha merits. Every single criticism I made around loose work, choreography, sudden and abrupt pinfalls, extremely rushed 2/3 match structure and so on was met typically with some version of "you're an idiot, you don't understand the style". There may be reasons around that, whatever they are, but you also have to expect a little bit of kickback if you are going to write off 90s AJ or 80s NWA, probably the two most popular styles among hardcore fans.

 

I still think after this that there's a lot of "this is awesome and you suck if you don't like it" in the Lucha discourse and to me that tone seems discouraging. People who don't get it are pretty much disinclined or worse scared to speak up about it and those who do get it used as a club to get beaten on the head with forever more.

[concrete1992]

Now everything is in and over, even though me including Casas in my top 10, Cota and Dandy in my top 50 was more "honest" than leaving them out, I still think it's slightly more damning and problematic for me to have included them and not Santo, Satanico or Blue Panther. To me it still looks more like an indictment of Lucha than an endorsement.

 

I've struggled also to find intelligent debate about Lucha merits. Every single criticism I made around loose work, choreography, sudden and abrupt pinfalls, extremely rushed 2/3 match structure and so on was met typically with some version of "you're an idiot, you don't understand the style". There may be reasons around that, whatever they are, but you also have to expect a little bit of kickback if you are going to write off 90s AJ or 80s NWA, probably the two most popular styles among hardcore fans.

 

I still think after this that there's a lot of "this is awesome and you suck if you don't like it" in the Lucha discourse and to me that tone seems discouraging. People who don't get it are pretty much disinclined or worse scared to speak up about it and those who do get it used as a club to get beaten on the head with forever more.

What new information led you to make this post?

[JerryvonKramer]

No new info

[Childs]

I don't think people are scared to speak up about not vibing with lucha. It's been a constant discussion point throughout this process. Have people really called you an idiot for not getting into it? Maybe a few, but that hasn't struck me as the dominant tone. OJ has certainly been a constructive conversation partner for you on the subject.

 

As far as substantive debate, at some point you either accept the rhythm and peculiarities of Lucha or you don't. If you watch classic examples of the style and they don't hit your wrestling sweet spot, no amount of arguing is going to change that. Just like I'm not going to talk you into loving Choshu-Fujinami. You saw what I see in that series--the intensity and struggle over basic moves. But it didn't speak to you the way it does to me. So be it.

[JerryvonKramer]

I guess what confuses me more is how people I align with an awful lot on other wrestling also end up being high on some of this stuff.

 

On his GWE show Pete talked about having to get into a certain zone to watch Lucha. Do other people do that too?

 

Some of the 2/3 fall match structure stuff I'm convinced just wouldn't fly in a US ring and we'd talk about some egregiously bad psychology -- but those criticisms are protected by the almost automatic argument that "well it's a style thing".

 

It's really that hump I'd like to get to the bottom of one day.

[goc]

I guess what confuses me more is how people I align with an awful lot on other wrestling also end up being high on some of this stuff.

 

On his GWE show Pete talked about having to get into a certain zone to watch Lucha. Do other people do that too?

 

Some of the 2/3 fall match structure stuff I'm convinced just wouldn't fly in a US ring and we'd talk about some egregiously bad psychology -- but those criticisms are protected by the almost automatic argument that "well it's a style thing".

So? It's not happening in a US ring, it's not trying to be US style. There are plenty of things from 90s All Japan that you couldn't have done in the U.S. at the same time it was happening there. But I don't see you penalizing super stiff strikes or head drops because "well you couldn't have done that in WWF or WCW at the time"

[JerryvonKramer]

I'm not sure that's the same thing at all. All those AJ matches would be the best US matches of all time if they happened in a US ring.

[Childs]

I do find that I watch Lucha with essentially a different brain. I choose not to get hung up on structural shit that would drive me nuts in a U.S. match. But I adjust my mindset for lots of different styles. I don't judge a shootstyle match in the same way I would a Crockett match from 1986 or either in the same way I would a British match from 1975. I can't imagine watching wrestling with a universal set of expectations. I think I'd enjoy a lot of stuff a lot less.

 

But there are styles that I just can't vibe with--Dragon Gate, a lot of main event Joshi from the '90s.

 

It happens.

[goc]

I'm not sure that's the same thing at all. All those AJ matches would be the best US matches of all time if they happened in a US ring.

I'm not sold on the idea that the 90s audiences for WWF & WCW had the patience for the All Japan 30+ minute slow build main events.

 

Either way my point is that trying to judge lucha or ANY kind of wrestling that isn't U.S. wrestling by the metric of "would this have worked in the U.S.?" is really silly.

[JerryvonKramer]

It's not what I do. I watch matches and ask the same questions of them regardless of when or where they happened. I have 100s of reviews here and in audio form doing that.

 

When the matches are Lucha I often find them wanting in the areas of structure, psychology, execution, stiffness, intensity and so on and so forth.

 

And then someone comes along and tells me that in this case my questions are silly because it's a style thing.

 

I hope you understand the frustration.

[goc]

Well what answer would you have for someone who asks about 90s All Japan "why are these guys hitting each other so hard? It's supposed to be a work." Probably something about how that's the All Japan style.

[JerryvonKramer]

Well what answer would you have for someone who asks about 90s All Japan "why are these guys hitting each other so hard? It's supposed to be a work." Probably something about how that's the All Japan style.

I see not much distinction between that and Flair vs Wahoo or Flair vs Steamer. And my answer would be the same:

 

I'd say "well these guys work stiff."

 

Giant Baba didn't work stiff himself. Not all AJ guys did.

[Loss]

I think Parv is looking for someone to explain lucha libre to him in a way that suddenly everything clicks and he sees its value and understands why the style differences are what they are, and it's something that makes sense. I feel like I understand lucha in my head, but getting the words out is tough, which is why I haven't made an attempt.

[goc]

 

Well what answer would you have for someone who asks about 90s All Japan "why are these guys hitting each other so hard? It's supposed to be a work." Probably something about how that's the All Japan style.

I see not much distinction between that and Flair vs Wahoo or Flair vs Steamer. And my answer would be the same:

 

I'd say "well these guys work stiff."

 

Giant Baba didn't work stiff himself. Not all AJ guys did.

 

Ok then the answer for "how come the lucha guys work loose" is because that's how they work. With part of that probably being the crazy schedule they would work without the benefit of the off time between tours that Japanese guys would have.

 

But there are lucha guys who have good looking strikes like Perro Aguayo kicking a dude in the face or some of Satanico's punches. But why would they hit each other any harder than necessary if the crowd is engaged?

 

I also see a difference in stiff chops which don't really do anything except leave welts on your chest and really stiff forearms/kicks to head.

[JerryvonKramer]

I think Parv is looking for someone to explain lucha libre to him in a way that suddenly everything clicks and he sees its value and understands why the style differences are what they are, and it's something that makes sense. I feel like I understand lucha in my head, but getting the words out is tough, which is why I haven't made an attempt.

Do you have to use a "different brain" when you watch it?

[Loss]

No, I don't feel like I have to make any adjustments. It probably helps that I see all wrestling as symbolic and focus more on the grand gestures anyway, though. Execution only matters if it's so good you take notice or so bad that it distracts from whatever else they are trying to achieve in the ring. It is a style that strikes me as even more character-driven than US wrestling, and I'm still working out how to explain what I mean by that.

[Graham Crackers]

It's a cop out answer but honestly, I think we're perceiving different things.

 

I think it appears cooperative when wrestlers spend a long time sitting in a hold and selling pain instead of searching for a counter. I think it doesn't make sense to soften someone up with holds that never actually win a match when there are other submission holds that regularly finish matches. I think a lot of pinning combinations outside of lucha look very loose. From what I've seen I don't think Parv is thinking about these things and it doesn't get in the way of him enjoying American grappling. That's fine. Parv's gripes about lucha don't really cross my mind when I watch it. Oh well.

[Loss]

Let's try to work through this together. Are you able to isolate what you see as the five (or so) biggest differences between lucha libre and the American/Japanese style? Then maybe we can try to tackle them one at a time.

[The Man in Blak]

I watch matches and ask the same questions of them regardless of when or where they happened.

 

In an attempt to avoid rehashing old discussions, I'll just call attention to this as something that I think is near the root of the "problem" here. If you point the same set of questions to great rock music and great jazz, you're going to get different answers. Action movies and documentaries. MMORPGs and fighting games.

 

There are certainly commonalities that genres can share, including different mechanics and expressions to how they work, but they don't always work together in the same way across a given artform. Frantic handheld camerawork that adds tension and uncertainty to a horror movie is going to feel incredibly dissonant when applied to a romantic comedy. So yeah, to me, desirable approaches to criticism have to assess how it all works in concert, even if leads to slightly contradictory conclusions about particular aspects on the whole.

 

If you always apply the same expectations, you're going to end up with fundamental disconnects to entire segments of the artform. (And yeah, I know that's another thread too, but I think all the navel-gazing that we're having over critical frameworks with this process should give you a hint that it's not just carnival work. )

 

It's not a taste thing or a reader-response thing -- it's identifying and acknowledging a deeper issue of structural differences that can, nonetheless, still end up with a similar end product of expression. For criticism, I want to examine how it all works together and, if there are areas where it doesn't, tease apart those failings or incongruities within the context of the work itself first before consulting a Grand Unifying Theory of Whatever that dictates how Things Should Work.

 

So, yeah, lucha is going to have different tenets of "good psychology" because it working in a different structure with a different audience and a different cultural context. Maybe the more productive line of discussion is identifying those differences to form a better understanding of how it works within them. (EDIT: Which is what Loss is driving for with his last post, woot. (EDIT EDIT: So much for not rehashing discussions, lol.))

[JerryvonKramer]

 

 

Well what answer would you have for someone who asks about 90s All Japan "why are these guys hitting each other so hard? It's supposed to be a work." Probably something about how that's the All Japan style.

I see not much distinction between that and Flair vs Wahoo or Flair vs Steamer. And my answer would be the same:

 

I'd say "well these guys work stiff."

 

Giant Baba didn't work stiff himself. Not all AJ guys did.

 

Ok then the answer for "how come the lucha guys work loose" is because that's how they work. With part of that probably being the crazy schedule they would work without the benefit of the off time between tours that Japanese guys would have.

 

But there are lucha guys who have good looking strikes like Perro Aguayo kicking a dude in the face or some of Satanico's punches. But why would they hit each other any harder than necessary if the crowd is engaged?

 

I also see a difference in stiff chops which don't really do anything except leave welts on your chest and really stiff forearms/kicks to head.

 

You've got me thinking about this a bit.

 

I think I have said on numerous occassions over the years "If this match had happened in a WWF ring, it would be thought of and remembered as a classic". Words along those lines. There are lots of incidental 4-star matches that happen in an AJ context that would look more special if pulled out and relocated. Take something like Hansen and DiBiase vs. Jumbo and Tenryu. In the context of all of 1980s All Japan, it's a match that goes missing. Imagine if it had happened on Wrestlemania 5 in place of DiBiase vs. Beefcake (random example), and I think that match would have the sort of purchase that Hart Foundation vs. Brainbusters (Summerslam 89) or Bret vs. Perfect (Summerslam 91) have. It never really struck me to ask if the match would or would not get over in front of the WWF crowd. I took it as a given to be honest.

[Loss]

I feel like it will be good for me to get better at putting my take on lucha in words. So I hope this is mutually beneficial.

[goc]

It never really struck me to ask if the match would or would not get over in front of the WWF crowd. I took it as a given to be honest.

I don't really think it's a given. Especially if you go further back to the 70s MSG crowds that are going crazy for Jay Strongbow & Ivan Putski. As much as you loved some of the Billy Robinson matches from Japan in the 70s are you 100% confident they'd have gotten over better with the MSG crowd than Jay Strongbow vs. Mr.Fuji?

[JerryvonKramer]

 

It never really struck me to ask if the match would or would not get over in front of the WWF crowd. I took it as a given to be honest.

I don't really think it's a given. Especially if you go further back to the 70s MSG crowds that are going crazy for Jay Strongbow & Ivan Putski. As much as you loved some of the Billy Robinson matches from Japan in the 70s are you 100% confident they'd have gotten over better with the MSG crowd than Jay Strongbow vs. Mr.Fuji?

 

Well that same MSG crowd absolutely lost their shit for Dynamite Kid vs. Tiger Mask, so that makes me think "yeah, probably". They also lost their shit for Steamboat and Youngblood.

[Badlittlekitten]

Not sure WWF crowds would be into the 90s AJ boys. Unclear heel/face divide, no colour, no personality.