Childs Posted January 19, 2016 Author Report Share Posted January 19, 2016 I'm not really a classical, traditional tecnico sort of guy but I have Atlantis relatively high. What's the downsides on him? I sort of get the sense that he does everything well but he doesn't stand out in one specific area like other people who do everything well (such as Santo). I do think he garners sympathy very well. I'm kind of high on his rudo run, as I think he embraced the role more than Santo did, for instance. I know I'm an exception there though. I'd probably appreciate Atlantis more if I made a concerted effort to look at his work in trios over the years. He's been a tecnico glue guy in so many and that might be his best calling card, even if he's more famous for his run of recent apuestas matches. But I haven't really done that, so to me, he's a technically skilled worker with tremendous longevity who has rarely blown my hair back in singles matches. I don't blame Atlantis for my qualms with the recent mask matches; I just have trouble getting into them because of the lack of blood and grit. The Ultimo Guerrero and Sombra matches would probably be significant feathers in his cap for some voters. For me, they mostly just help his longevity case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted January 19, 2016 Report Share Posted January 19, 2016 I'm not really a classical, traditional tecnico sort of guy but I have Atlantis relatively high. What's the downsides on him? I sort of get the sense that he does everything well but he doesn't stand out in one specific area like other people who do everything well (such as Santo). I do think he garners sympathy very well. I'm kind of high on his rudo run, as I think he embraced the role more than Santo did, for instance. I know I'm an exception there though. I'd probably appreciate Atlantis more if I made a concerted effort to look at his work in trios over the years. He's been a tecnico glue guy in so many and that might be his best calling card, even if he's more famous for his run of recent apuestas matches. But I haven't really done that, so to me, he's a technically skilled worker with tremendous longevity who has rarely blown my hair back in singles matches. I don't blame Atlantis for my qualms with the recent mask matches; I just have trouble getting into them because of the lack of blood and grit. The Ultimo Guerrero and Sombra matches would probably be significant feathers in his cap for some voters. For me, they mostly just help his longevity case. Did you see the Silver Fox match that dropped last week? Was that out there previously? I haven't seen anyone talk about it. It's not a blow-away match by any means, but if you haven't seen it, you should. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Childs Posted January 19, 2016 Author Report Share Posted January 19, 2016 On the Navarro/Solar point, I've always responded more strongly to Navarro because I like him better as a brawler. He threw some of the best punches in wrestling and came off as a tough son of a bitch on top of being a mat maestro. OJ's point about his earlier work being more questionable than Terry's is probably a fair one. I perhaps give Navarro an instinctive pass, because he was part of a famous trio. But the reality is he has never looked like an all-timer in the Misioneros footage that has surfaced. I'm probably ranking others based on less impressive peaks than Terry's IWRG run, so my gut tells me I need to find a place for him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Childs Posted January 19, 2016 Author Report Share Posted January 19, 2016 I'm not really a classical, traditional tecnico sort of guy but I have Atlantis relatively high. What's the downsides on him? I sort of get the sense that he does everything well but he doesn't stand out in one specific area like other people who do everything well (such as Santo). I do think he garners sympathy very well. I'm kind of high on his rudo run, as I think he embraced the role more than Santo did, for instance. I know I'm an exception there though. I'd probably appreciate Atlantis more if I made a concerted effort to look at his work in trios over the years. He's been a tecnico glue guy in so many and that might be his best calling card, even if he's more famous for his run of recent apuestas matches. But I haven't really done that, so to me, he's a technically skilled worker with tremendous longevity who has rarely blown my hair back in singles matches. I don't blame Atlantis for my qualms with the recent mask matches; I just have trouble getting into them because of the lack of blood and grit. The Ultimo Guerrero and Sombra matches would probably be significant feathers in his cap for some voters. For me, they mostly just help his longevity case. Did you see the Silver Fox match that dropped last week? Was that out there previously? I haven't seen anyone talk about it. It's not a blow-away match by any means, but if you haven't seen it, you should. I haven't, but I'll check it out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InYourCase Posted January 19, 2016 Report Share Posted January 19, 2016 I'm not really a classical, traditional tecnico sort of guy but I have Atlantis relatively high. What's the downsides on him? I sort of get the sense that he does everything well but he doesn't stand out in one specific area like other people who do everything well (such as Santo). I do think he garners sympathy very well. I'm kind of high on his rudo run, as I think he embraced the role more than Santo did, for instance. I know I'm an exception there though. I find him extremely boring. There's nothing he does wrong, really (I hate the Atlantida but that's a personal gripe) but he does nothing that ever engages me. Didn't like his mask matches with Ultimo and La Sombra. He's there. I feel like you could plug in tons of other people and they'd be better in his role than he is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pantherwagner Posted January 19, 2016 Report Share Posted January 19, 2016 I'm not really a classical, traditional tecnico sort of guy but I have Atlantis relatively high. What's the downsides on him? I sort of get the sense that he does everything well but he doesn't stand out in one specific area like other people who do everything well (such as Santo). I do think he garners sympathy very well. I'm kind of high on his rudo run, as I think he embraced the role more than Santo did, for instance. I know I'm an exception there though. I'd probably appreciate Atlantis more if I made a concerted effort to look at his work in trios over the years. He's been a tecnico glue guy in so many and that might be his best calling card, even if he's more famous for his run of recent apuestas matches. But I haven't really done that, so to me, he's a technically skilled worker with tremendous longevity who has rarely blown my hair back in singles matches. I don't blame Atlantis for my qualms with the recent mask matches; I just have trouble getting into them because of the lack of blood and grit. The Ultimo Guerrero and Sombra matches would probably be significant feathers in his cap for some voters. For me, they mostly just help his longevity case. Did you see the Silver Fox match that dropped last week? Was that out there previously? I haven't seen anyone talk about it. It's not a blow-away match by any means, but if you haven't seen it, you should. I'm far from a lucha footage expert these days, but I was surprised when I saw that match popping up. I knew about the match but had no idea it was out there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted January 19, 2016 Report Share Posted January 19, 2016 I really haven't even thought about a rough draft at this point, but here are the luchadors I am positive I will rate in no particular order: Negro Casas, El Hijo Del Santo, Blue Panther, Virus, Satanico, El Dandy, Black Terry Strong possibility: LA Park, La Fiera, Sangre Chicana, Emilo Charles Jr. Need to watch more ASAP to feel fully comfortable with, but feel like they should be instinctively: Fuerza Guerrera, Pirata Morgan, Perro Aguayo Sr., Villano III People I want to include but I'm no sure I can really justify it: Villano IV, Javier Cruz, Mocho Cota I'm open to people like MS-1, Lizmark, et., but I'd be lying if I said they were likely picks at this point. Atlantis I won't include. I don't hate him, in fact I think he's very good, but he has no attribute that jumps out at me and screams "this is why he belongs in your top 100." In the end I will likely have 10-15 on my list. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cad Posted January 19, 2016 Report Share Posted January 19, 2016 I'm not really a classical, traditional tecnico sort of guy but I have Atlantis relatively high. What's the downsides on him? I sort of get the sense that he does everything well but he doesn't stand out in one specific area like other people who do everything well (such as Santo). I do think he garners sympathy very well. I'm kind of high on his rudo run, as I think he embraced the role more than Santo did, for instance. I know I'm an exception there though. I find him extremely boring. There's nothing he does wrong, really (I hate the Atlantida but that's a personal gripe) but he does nothing that ever engages me. Didn't like his mask matches with Ultimo and La Sombra. He's there. I feel like you could plug in tons of other people and they'd be better in his role than he is. That wasn't true of him in his younger days. People keep saying he has no standout attribute but until the minis became regulars he was probably the best flyer in the EMLL (maybe there were better guys on untaped undercards or smaller shows, I don't know). To me that's an elite quality. I don't know how innovative he was, but I can't think of anyone else at the time doing moonsaults to the outside or the twisty cross body block or that tope where he hits his opponent at like a 25 degree angle. On the occasions he'd stoop to performing a straight tope through the ropes he'd execute that beautifully too. There might have been better tecnicos but I can't think of anyone who'd have been as good in the same role. Oro was a phenomenon when he showed up a few years later and I don't think he was as good a flyer as late '80s Atlantis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted January 20, 2016 Report Share Posted January 20, 2016 If Atlantis' matches against the likes of Fiera and Emilio Charles Jr were just a bit better he'd be a slum dunk pick. It's weird that he has a rep as an apuesta worker now as he was never that great at them in his prime. The Mano Negra bout in particular is a real disappointment since Negra was a good worker. Another thing that hurts Atlantis from a singles match perspective is that he was overly fond of shock falls where he'd score a pinfall or submission in seconds. I'd take him over Villano III, though, who doesn't often meet my expectations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eduardo Posted January 20, 2016 Report Share Posted January 20, 2016 I would still argue one of Atlantis' strong points was being Blue Panther's best dancing partner, by a significant margin. Both in singles and trios matches. There are a couple of trios matches out there, involving El HIjo Del Santo, Negro Casas, Atlantis, and Blue Panther, where the sequences between Atlantis-Panther were worked at a higher level than Santo-Casas. Panther never reached that level of work with anyone other than Atlantis. That might be more of a negative on Panther though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted January 20, 2016 Report Share Posted January 20, 2016 I would be interested in more people explaining their thoughts on minis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted January 20, 2016 Report Share Posted January 20, 2016 My thoughts on mini's are basically that I should probably watch a bit more of the top couple, but on the surface none of them feel like an obvious pick. I would be willing to watch your top mini picks though Loss, and would start tonight if you send me links. I'm not at all opposed to Sagrada, and could see him placing for me. I love Demus 3:16 as a guy who always delivers when given a chance (loved his hair v. hair against Shockercito from last year for example), but the chances are very limited. This sounds awful for multiple reasons but I almost think a mini would have to feel bigger than the division for me to seriously consider them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Childs Posted January 20, 2016 Author Report Share Posted January 20, 2016 I would be interested in more people explaining their thoughts on minis.Honestly I just haven't seen enough of them. The yearbooks offered a taste but I'm not sure I came away with a clear grip on each guy's case. Maybe if I went back and watched the Espectrito matches in a focused fasion? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
concrete1992 Posted January 20, 2016 Report Share Posted January 20, 2016 This sounds awful for multiple reasons but I almost think a mini would have to feel bigger than the division for me to seriously consider them. You're above this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted January 20, 2016 Report Share Posted January 20, 2016 I would be interested in more people explaining their thoughts on minis. The problem with minis is that their runs never last that long. The mini division in 1997 was amazing and then it fell apart when Virus won promotion to the heavier ranks. The AAA minis you like were primarily on the scene in '94. Recent minis probably have stronger cases. Demus and Pierrothito have been around for a lot longer than Espectrito, for example. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Crackers Posted January 20, 2016 Report Share Posted January 20, 2016 My most recent draft has 28 lucha workers on it. My locks are: Satanico, Casas, Hijo del Santo, Dandy, Rey (more of a US worker but for the sake of completeness), Morgan, Blue Panther, Virus, Atlantis, Sangre Chicana, Black Terry, Solar, Super Astro, Fuerza Guerrera, Negro Navarro, Perro Aguayo, Emilio Charles Jr, LA Park, Super Porky, Brazo de Oro, Dr. Cerebro, Cassandro, and Espanto Jr. Rayo de Jalisco Jr. is my number 100. I would be interested in more people explaining their thoughts on minis. Pierrothito is a strong possibility for my list and I only just realized he isn't nominated. I'm going to do something about that in a little bit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted January 22, 2016 Report Share Posted January 22, 2016 I think one contributing factor to my general inability to get into Lucha has been that you seldom hear any real criticism of it. This thought occurred to me while listening to Between the Sheets #18 when their guest really went in on why a certain match was disappointing and I was like "wow, that's refreshing to hear, Lucha that isn't *the best thing evar*" I do think it would help those of us who have struggled greatly to get into it if its advocates treated it more like normal wrestling -- with its dose of crap and not very good workers etc. -- and less as this refied awesome thing with 250 workers better than Ricky Steamboat in it. I get that to an extent it might need championing in a way that stuff like 80s NWA or 90a AJ doesn't, but I do think the narrative of "Lucha is great, Lucha is great" is pushed pretty hard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted January 22, 2016 Report Share Posted January 22, 2016 Parv: I think your comment was pretty ridiculous but read my pissed off rant from last year anyway: http://segundacaida.blogspot.com/2015/08/mlj-volador-2015-something-something-8.html?m=1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted January 22, 2016 Report Share Posted January 22, 2016 It isn't ridiculous if you consider that if the perception is that "Lucha is great, Lucha is great" is the narrative being pushed, it actually encourages a wholesale rejection of the thing. Non-Lucha fans aren't going to read your review of that show from last year. They only really see the pimping of what is great. I've been told in the past to think of Lucha just as normal wrestling but it seems to me that those who go in big for it don't really do that. That's my perception at least, and I'm almost certainly not alone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted January 22, 2016 Report Share Posted January 22, 2016 Just because you feel like the cool kids aren't letting you in the clubhouse, it doesn't mean that I didn't contrive a perfectly quality rant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted January 22, 2016 Report Share Posted January 22, 2016 Ha ha. I lolled. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eduardo Posted January 22, 2016 Report Share Posted January 22, 2016 Two thoughts: 1. Among lucha libre watching fans, OJ has a blog on this very forum that has all types of great critiques on all types of lucha libre matches, even ones that are very popular among a lot of us like Santo vs Casas in 1997. There are hundreds of posts on this very forum, on the yearbook threads, about lucha libre matches that folks are hot or cold on. That's just on this forum. On Twitter, and elsewhere, people have all types of varying opinions on lucha libre, and that's just talking about English-written stuff. 2. "Lucha is great, Lucha is great" is pushed pretty hard. On American-UK, English speaking internet circles, lucha libre has been historically ignored, erased or thought of as inferior. I just find this idea amusing that people being positive on lucha libre is a big turn off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted January 22, 2016 Report Share Posted January 22, 2016 It's a turn off if the positivity feels blanket. Which is to say when people present themselves, they tend to be seen saying things like "I love Lucha" as opposed to being more balanced and measured in the way they talk about it. There might be historical reasons for it, but it is off-putting, because people don't tend to go around saying things like "I love Japanese wrestling" in quite the same way. At least not in these parts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
concrete1992 Posted January 22, 2016 Report Share Posted January 22, 2016 Apparently we haven't been to reddit and/or the Classic Japanese Wrestling thread on Facebook. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted January 22, 2016 Report Share Posted January 22, 2016 Oh, there's no such thing as wrestling that's harder to watch than Really Bad Lucha, at least in my view. But I think the restraint or nuance you seek is already there. You should hear the things people say about AAA and IWRG. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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