Current Lucha Talk

[Matt D]

It's not like multi-man lucha cage matches are ever any good anyway? Even when there's not confusion on when they can start to leave the cage, you get, at best, a couple of fun moments of temporary alliances and betrayals at best. What's the best multi-man lucha cage match? What's one good multi-man lucha cage match?

[Phil Schneider]

Yeah it really doesn’t matter who is in it, you could have 1983 Sangra Chicana, 1997 Santo, 1989 Dandy, 2009 Rush, 2013 Black Terry and 1987 Satanico and it would still suck

[Jetlag]

Well, there was a 4 way match between Black Terry, Dr. Cerebro and Gringos Locos VIP back in 2010 that was really good. It was basically worked like a 2 vs. 2 match, but I guess it still counts as a lucha multiman cage. And there was that DVDVR list barbedwire cagematch from Tijuana around 2000, never seen it though.

[Rah]

There's one from 1995 Tijuana - that's the only barbedwire cage I know of there. That's on Youtube, though.

[WingedEagle]

Is there anything appealing on that lineup?  I pop in every now and then if a match is gets any buzz outside of hardcore lucha followers, but on paper it reads like a card sold solely based on the name.

[Matt D]

The way Cubs put it, and it's hard to disagree, is that it's quantity over quality. Two apuestas matches (one with the gimmick, the other a novelty since it's minis and new), two title matches, and a revelos increibles. They've learned over the last few years that they can draw with almost anything. Moreover, his analysis was that from the booking, they couldn't come to a deal on the one-on-one hair match they wanted so they just put a bunch of people in there with a deal that they could make. I'll probably check out the mini's match later, but it's a pass for me in general.

[sek69]

Also it's probably a case of whoever the last two in the cage match are (most likely CIber the Main Man and Ultimo Guerrero) was probably meant to be the main event, but CMLL didn't think they could do a singles match without sucking. The problem with this particular match is it's composed entirely of people too new for the CMLL audience to care about losing, or there's no way they are going to lose in a clusterfuck cage match.

Also a pretty "only in Mexico" moment happened on today's AAA taping being shown on Twitch: Santana and Ortiz showed up being billed as LAX, despite Impact helping AAA run their NYC show. Because wrestling promotions in Mexico don't give a fuck about what gimmicks you have copywritten. 

[joeg]

I don't think its matter of CMLL thinking Ciber vs UG would suck (they've shown that they don't care if their main events suck) as much CMLL worrying that Ciber vs UG alone wouldn't draw as much as a cage. All CMLL cage matches suck pretty much, but they usually draw.   

[sek69]

Ciber's been pretty bad just kept to trios though, I wouldn't be surprised if they thought having UG try do a Anniversary show main event singles match with him was too much of an ask (despite the fact I'm fairly sure UG could manage a decent match with any of us here).

[joeg]

Speaking of bad, I'm watching Friday's show right now, I'm watching Big Daddy Yum Yum and I think ya know for a guy just starting out he's not half bad, he has some potential with good size and nice athleticism, then I remember that he's been around for 15 years, done two tours of Japan, a year in Germany,  and a year in developmental and wonder how on Earth he could possibly still be so bad. Its mind boggling really. 

[sek69]

Plus you have to consider UG's a main booker in CMLL so he probably looked at the options for a singles main event and thought "fuck it, put em in a cage and I'll face the winner".

Also AAA seemed to set up some angles for Heroes Immortales, looks like Taya and Akayo Hamada are going to be doing something, possibly a ladder match since they beat each other up with one (and other assorted plunder) in their match.  They also had Argenis (Caristico's brother) state that Myztezeiz Jr doesn't have the right to wear that mask since he's not part of the family (Myzteziz was the gimmick the original Mistico used in AAA, the Jr is the former Angelikal who is in fact not related to them at all but is Bandido's cousin).  Argenis then laid him out and bloodied him up, to the point where Jr ended up doing a stretcher job. So that's probably going to be a mask match at some point. Then Wagner came out during the main event wearing a Mankind-like mask to sell the fact he got hit in the face with a goddamned cinderblock, and proceeded to bash Blue Demon's hand with a hammer. 

It was noticeable that a lot of folks got new themes on this show, mostly replacing actual songs with in house music. Psycho Clown got new music too, which was odd since it wasn't already an existing song prior, but maybe AAA felt the generic circus music wasn't proper for a main eventer. It was also noticeable that Wagner still came out to Bad Medicine because of course he did. 

[NintendoLogic]

Casas has to be setting some kind of record as a full-time serious wrestler in a major promotion, right? Giant Baba and Rusher Kimura were both full-timers into their 60s, but they had long been relegated to old man comedy matches by that point.

[sek69]

The only one I could think of that comes anywhere close is Flair, really. He was at or near the top everywhere he was at from about 1975 until 2001, and then periodically in his last WWE run. 

The difference with Negro is while he's obviously slowed down a bit, he's not gone into the "embarrassing old man" stage most fall into at his age. 

[El-P]

On 9/9/2019 at 6:02 PM, sek69 said:

Also AAA seemed to set up some angles for Heroes Immortales, looks like Taya and Akayo Hamada are going to be doing something, possibly a ladder match since they beat each other up with one (and other assorted plunder) in their match. 

Poor Taya took a bump on the ladder and of course it wasn't showed, because AAA. That said, Taya vs Ayako in a ladder match, I'm so there. Cool to see Ayako make a comeback.

On 9/9/2019 at 6:02 PM, sek69 said:

They also had Argenis (Caristico's brother) state that Myztezeiz Jr doesn't have the right to wear that mask since he's not part of the family (Myzteziz was the gimmick the original Mistico used in AAA, the Jr is the former Angelikal who is in fact not related to them at all but is Bandido's cousin).

Thanks for clarifying that up, because the whole thing is confusing as all hell. I kinda got that Mystiziz Jr. was doing the Mistico gimmick in AAA but I wasn't sure who copied who and who was the first one to do it... It's confusing enough that the current Mistico in CMLL is actually the former Dragon Lee (am I right ?) and the old Mistico is Caristico...

On 9/9/2019 at 6:02 PM, sek69 said:

Psycho Clown got new music too, which was odd since it wasn't already an existing song prior, but maybe AAA felt the generic circus music wasn't proper for a main eventer.

The new theme is brutal where the old was merely annoying, which suited Psycho Clown...

[sek69]

2 hours ago, El-P said:

Thanks for clarifying that up, because the whole thing is confusing as all hell. I kinda got that Mystiziz Jr. was doing the Mistico gimmick in AAA but I wasn't sure who copied who and who was the first one to do it... It's confusing enough that the current Mistico in CMLL is actually the former Dragon Lee (am I right ?) and the old Mistico is Caristico...

 

Yes, when the original Mistico left, CMLL made a new one with the first Dragon Lee. The Dragon Lee we know today is the brother of the original (and Rush). When the original Mistico came back to CMLL they combined the Sin Cara name with Mistico and created Caristico. 

It wasn't clear why AAA suddenly gave Angelikal the Mysteziz Jr gimmick out of nowhere, and it probably wasn't to do this angle, but at least it kind of makes sense now.

[sek69]

So in case you were worried CMLL would stop doing dumb things after Paco died, Dragon Lee has apparently been benched for going to PWG to do BOLA.  They didn't want him to go since AAA guys were going to be there, but he did anyway.  

[SmartMark15]

On 9/27/2019 at 6:43 AM, sek69 said:

So in case you were worried CMLL would stop doing dumb things after Paco died, Dragon Lee has apparently been benched for going to PWG to do BOLA.  They didn't want him to go since AAA guys were going to be there, but he did anyway.  

And now both Rush and Lee have been fired.

[sek69]

Yeah I mentioned that in the "Rush wins ROH title" thread. Such a stupid move on CMLL's part. Rush was probably going to end up signing full time with a US company soon enough, but firing Dragon Lee was cutting off their nose to spite their face.

[joeg]

I keep seeing online an argument that CMLL will be fine because their training school is so great that they won't have a difficult time producing new stars. This has me asking which top luchadors actually went through CMLL's school? Most of the guys I can think of went through Negro Navarro's school or were trained by a father or uncle... 

[sek69]

CMLL will be fine because their training school can churn out enough bodies to fill a card. You'd have a tough time convincing anyone CMLL is interested in producing stars regardless of where they come from at this point. 

[El-P]

Meanwhile, their Anniversary show looked like nothing special at all. Dynamitas vs Caristico/Mistico/Valiente was excellent as expected, but I would not subject myself to that long-ass cage match. Negro Casas lost his hair, which I guess makes it a big deal, but still...

[Rah]

They really do fall back on the Negro gets shaved well far too often... 

I get he's "a made man" but I'm starting to wonder how much of a rub to the winner him losing an apuesta actually means these days.

[sek69]

Ultimo Guerrero won so it wasn't anyone who needed a rub anyway. 

[Matt D]

37 minutes ago, sek69 said:

Ultimo Guerrero won so it wasn't anyone who needed a rub anyway. 

Wrestling without booking. 

[NintendoLogic]

That's why I don't understand the logic behind these cage matches. Isn't taking another luchador's hair a huge honor? Shouldn't they all be doing everything they can to stay in the cage?