Current Lucha Talk

[JRGoldman]

It is mystifying to me that people still respond to Stro, the most obvious troll on the board, and not even a particularly interesting or clever one.

 

To clarify, before anyone says anything: it's not that he disagrees about a well regarded match, it's that he continually and willingly ignores people who respond and give him evidence, which inevitably leads to those people conflict.

[Grimmas]

So, basically, here's this match built around shitty your-turn-my-turn exchanges and forced epic spots like we shit on modern puro for, but it's cool because it's a mask match.

Never heard anyone describe the match that way, that's a very interesting take. I completely disagree with it, but interesting.

[stro]

See, I didn't get any of these high stakes and emotion out of that match at all. It didn't feel like they were fighting for anything important, it didn't feel like there was any intensity in their physical actions, because everything looked so limp and soft and sloppy. I'm not expecting Shibata style headbutts and stiffness or anything, but I do expect something that looks a little more intense than Kelly Kelly punches. I just watched Eddie/Art vs Santo/Octagon, and THAT had intensity and stakes despite me not knowing anything about the history of the angle.

 

I also wouldn't say it was my turn your turn stuff, mostly because nothing happened besides the weak and standard brawling. Perhaps if there was like 3 years of context to it it would impress me more. But I didn't know anything about Casas/Heircero and liked that match a lot because I didn't need context to understand what they were doing and why it worked.

 

 

It is mystifying to me that people still respond to Stro, the most obvious troll on the board, and not even a particularly interesting or clever one.

 

To clarify, before anyone says anything: it's not that he disagrees about a well regarded match, it's that he continually and willingly ignores people who respond and give him evidence, which inevitably leads to those people conflict.

 

I'm asking for explanations beyond a run down of the match. Which is what I've been told. And I don't see at all what I've been told, but that's not willingly ignoring it. It's still not understanding it because we saw different things in the match. Covering 8 lucha MOTYC for my site, going outside of my comfort range of what I like to watch and taking recommendations from people who are into lucha, is totally trolling. You caught me.

[Grimmas]

See, I didn't get any of these high stakes and emotion out of that match at all. It didn't feel like they were fighting for anything important, it didn't feel like there was any intensity in their physical actions, because everything looked so limp and soft and sloppy. I'm not expecting Shibata style headbutts and stiffness or anything, but I do expect something that looks a little more intense than Kelly Kelly punches. I just watched Eddie/Art vs Santo/Octagon, and THAT had intensity and stakes despite me not knowing anything about the history of the angle.

 

I also wouldn't say it was my turn your turn stuff, mostly because nothing happened besides the weak and standard brawling. Perhaps if there was like 3 years of context to it it would impress me more. But I didn't know anything about Casas/Heircero and liked that match a lot because I didn't need context to understand what they were doing and why it worked.

Yeah I think we watched different matches, because I disagree with everything you said there.

 

There might be an issue here where you saw people hype it, and you never heard of it and formed your opinion before hand. Then when you watched it you watched for flaws and through biased eyes. It's called confirmation bias and it happens to almost everybody.

[stro]

Well, you're saying it is a match of the decade, I would expect it to be at least pretty good. I don't think that's terribly unreasonable. I wasn't expecting it to be bad.

[overbooked]

 

 

So, basically, here's this match built around shitty your-turn-my-turn exchanges and forced epic spots like we shit on modern puro for, but it's cool because it's a mask match.

Never heard anyone describe the match that way, that's a very interesting take. I completely disagree with it, but interesting.

I really don't get that either. I'd love to hear more. I didn't see the turn-taking or forced epic stuff.

[Jetlag]

It doesn't get more forced epic in mexican wrestling than doing a Tombstone and have the match continue.

 

There was plenty of your turn-my turn stuff. They took turns hitting eachother with chairs, hitting slaps to the chest, and trading rollups/submissions in the 3rd fall. It's a common thing in big lucha matches and they do the exhaustion selling to make it not seem as bad as in some japanese matches, but it's still blatant turn taking.

 

EDIT: Since people have been pimping it as Match of the Decade, have they actually compared it to the top mexican matches from this decade so far? I didn't think the match was bad, but I expect more from something that gets pimped as MOTD. And I think stuff like the 2012 Panther/Casas match or the Santo TxT tag, the 2011 IWRG vs. AAA tags or assorted 2010 IWRG bloodbaths shit all over this.

[GOTNW]

It doesn't get more forced epic in mexican wrestling than doing a Tombstone and have the match continue.

 

Coming from someone who hyped LA Park-Mesias as one of the best matches of the decade I can't tell if this is a troll or not.

[Grimmas]

Well, you're saying it is a match of the decade, I would expect it to be at least pretty good. I don't think that's terribly unreasonable. I wasn't expecting it to be bad.

So, you didn't understand my post.

 

Confirmation bias would make you think this great match is bad. It's a possible explanation.

 

It's difficult if you are expecting something really great, especially if you don't think it will be great and you don't really believe the people who tell you it will be great.

[fxnj]

 

 

 

So, basically, here's this match built around shitty your-turn-my-turn exchanges and forced epic spots like we shit on modern puro for, but it's cool because it's a mask match.

Never heard anyone describe the match that way, that's a very interesting take. I completely disagree with it, but interesting.

I really don't get that either. I'd love to hear more. I didn't see the turn-taking or forced epic stuff.

The slaps and chops really weren't that good for the type of match they were going for, and the chair shot spot with one guy hunching over after a chop to let the other guy hit him looked contrived as fuck. The finish run just looked like them trading big moves without much in the way of the struggle or dramatic counters that made the Atlantis anniversary matches work, hence why I see it as turn-taking They did a lot of playing to the crowd and spent long periods lying around to sell, but most of it didn't really feel warranted by the work they were doing. LA Park/Mesias was pretty much what this match should have been but wasn't.

[overbooked]

I feel like I've been banging on about this lately, but this does seem like one of those matches that highlights how people approach watching wrestling in different ways.

 

If you're looking for some objective Ideal of what you think wrestling should be then I can see how you might be disappointed. This isn't an obvious workrate/psychology/etc puzzle to unpick.

 

However, if you look to watch wrestling primarily to be moved emotionally, I think the match is far more likely to click.

 

So, I get the criticisms. But it fulfils what I look for in wrestling, which is some form of "real" that goes beyond selling, match structure etc.

[stro]

 

Well, you're saying it is a match of the decade, I would expect it to be at least pretty good. I don't think that's terribly unreasonable. I wasn't expecting it to be bad.

So, you didn't understand my post.

 

Confirmation bias would make you think this great match is bad. It's a possible explanation.

 

It's difficult if you are expecting something really great, especially if you don't think it will be great and you don't really believe the people who tell you it will be great.

 

 

What the hell, I asked you for your recommendations, and trusted your judgment that it was a good match. Yet you think I was expecting it to be bad and didn't believe you? Why would I ask you for recs of matches I assumed were bad and thought you were full of shit? I did like some of them. I didn't like that one.

[fxnj]

I feel like I've been banging on about this lately, but this does seem like one of those matches that highlights how people approach watching wrestling in different ways.

 

If you're looking for some objective Ideal of what you think wrestling should be then I can see how you might be disappointed. This isn't an obvious workrate/psychology/etc puzzle to unpick.

 

However, if you look to watch wrestling primarily to be moved emotionally, I think the match is far more likely to click.

 

So, I get the criticisms. But it fulfils what I look for in wrestling, which is some form of "real" that goes beyond selling, match structure etc.

Believe me, I have an emotional connection with this match. I've been following Trauma I and IWRG since the promotion's 2009-2011 heyday, and I would love to see the promotion return to putting out greatness with a ***** match. That's just not what I see here. I still enjoyed it and would rate it in the neighborhood of ***3/4 largely because of that connection, and because they did give a valiant effort to try some pretty ambitious things even if the execution was lacking. But a match needs a lot more than that to be this slam dunk MOTDC that's getting unfairly overlooked as has been claimed.

[Grimmas]

 

 

Well, you're saying it is a match of the decade, I would expect it to be at least pretty good. I don't think that's terribly unreasonable. I wasn't expecting it to be bad.

So, you didn't understand my post.

 

Confirmation bias would make you think this great match is bad. It's a possible explanation.

 

It's difficult if you are expecting something really great, especially if you don't think it will be great and you don't really believe the people who tell you it will be great.

 

 

What the hell, I asked you for your recommendations, and trusted your judgment that it was a good match. Yet you think I was expecting it to be bad and didn't believe you? Why would I ask you for recs of matches I assumed were bad and thought you were full of shit? I did like some of them. I didn't like that one.

 

 

I don't even know how to respond to this. You think everybody is trolling you in liking this match? You didn't read the lucha thread where you laughed at this match? You didn't read the lucha thread where you shit on lucha?

 

It's very possible you watched this match, a match even Joe Lanza gave 4 stars, and thought it was awful. Sure. Its more likely that your previous attitude about this match and lucha in general had an effect you were not aware of. It's not a ridiculous speculation to make.

[stro]

 

 

 

Well, you're saying it is a match of the decade, I would expect it to be at least pretty good. I don't think that's terribly unreasonable. I wasn't expecting it to be bad.

So, you didn't understand my post.

 

Confirmation bias would make you think this great match is bad. It's a possible explanation.

 

It's difficult if you are expecting something really great, especially if you don't think it will be great and you don't really believe the people who tell you it will be great.

 

 

What the hell, I asked you for your recommendations, and trusted your judgment that it was a good match. Yet you think I was expecting it to be bad and didn't believe you? Why would I ask you for recs of matches I assumed were bad and thought you were full of shit? I did like some of them. I didn't like that one.

 

 

I don't even know how to respond to this. You think everybody is trolling you in liking this match? You didn't read the lucha thread where you laughed at this match? You didn't read the lucha thread where you shit on lucha?

 

It's very possible you watched this match, a match even Joe Lanza gave 4 stars, and thought it was awful. Sure. Its more likely that your previous attitude about this match and lucha in general had an effect you were not aware of. It's not a ridiculous speculation to make.

 

 

I don't know who Joe Lanza is or why he matters to this conversation. Nowhere did I say people were trolling me about liking the match. You said I went into it not believing you and assuming it sucked, which is completely the opposite of what I thought going into it on both counts. I believe you obviously think the match is great. I believe you enjoy lucha very much, which is why I asked you for the top matches on that list to watch. I went in hoping to enjoy them. And I did enjoy 2 or 3 of them.

[Grimmas]

Reviewed Sin Piedad on my blog and it was a solid two hour show. I surprisingly enjoyed Mascara Ano 2000 vs Maximo Sexy for the hair. About *** 1/4, a really good vet cheater vs younger upstart match.

[Jetlag]

 

It doesn't get more forced epic in mexican wrestling than doing a Tombstone and have the match continue.

 

Coming from someone who hyped LA Park-Mesias as one of the best matches of the decade I can't tell if this is a troll or not.

 

 

Hey, I can forgive "forced epic" if the match is actually outstanding.

[overbooked]

I do get that Trauma I/Canis Lupus isn't for everyone, so what was the (other) best lucha match of 2016?

[ohtani's jacket]

I finally watched Trauma/Lupus and wrote a lengthy review of it here -- http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/blog/8/entry-488-2016-round-up-day-2/

 

The long, the short and the tall of it all: I thought the first two falls were rubbish but everything after the chair shots was amazing and the post-match unmasking was incredible.

[van_Fair]

 

Watch TripleMania at your own peril.

 

Well, you did warn me.

 

It was like the worst LU show ever. It never really felt like a true lucha libre show like CMLL was anyway, with zero trios match. Johnny Mundo's entrance was gold though, but the match with Pentagon was not very good. Usual Mundo spotfest without heeling (he looks much better in 6-men matches in LU). Pentagon kinda working face didn't do much for me either, although he looks like a star. The three-way was just that, a three-way with its share of clunkiness. Still don't think much of Texano Jr. He's solid. I don't see anything special in him. The four team tag team title match was a total clusterfuck, with some great diving sequences. What else... The LU match I liked, although it lacked heat, only Rey Jr. was really over (and damn, was he over). Vampiro totally fucked up on announcing was classic though. Had me rolling.

 

The only thing I enjoyed in the undercard was the Apache match, probably because it was cool to see Faby still looks like a excellent worker. Going back to the ARSION days, when Mari Apache broke the mold of crappy luchadoras before Faby became even better. Well, it was different and clusterfucky but it did tell a story, and Faby is a trooper. The old FMW fan in me enjoyed the bloodletting. Speaking of which, I did love the main event. Crazy, insane brawling which actually built into the insanity, although one can argue the selling was not exactly consistent (it wasn't, but it was all about the insanity). I could have done without the run-ins at the end (damn, Damian is still around ? And Psychosis has become kinda fat), pretty useless, especially the swerve with Doc Wagner, but the final spot was grand in its ECW stupidity. Dunno if I'd call this a great match, but the seediness, dirtyness and plain crass violence was something else. Gotta love the fact kids are in the audience. Mexico. A different kind of culture. I admit I like my pro-wrestling in its non-hygienist glory. So there. Great intros too BTW, especially Psycho Clown. Well, I'd probably call this a MOTYC anyway.

 

So, pretty clusterfucky card, with tons of stuff that didn't look too good and wasted potential, but one memorable match/angle in the undercard and one amazing crazy main event. AAA does look like a completely different product than CMLL. I'm sure the pure lucha fan hate AAA. Is Konnan involved with them still ?

 

 

Until recently AAA had a weird booking set up where Konnan would book the TV and one of the Roldans would book the big show. Konnan actually did a good job booking the TV, he kept the usual AAA shenanigans to a minimum and built feuds well. But because he didn't book the big shows those feuds rarely ever paid off. Then he had falling out Nr. 3500 with the promotion and left now the TV has become just as bad as the big shows.

 

As for something more positive CMLL's card for friday looks absolutely amazing.

 

1) Estrellita, La Vaquerita, Marcela vs Amapola, Dalys, Zeuxis

2) Rey Cometa vs Cavernario

3) Blue Panther, Blue Panther Jr., The Panther vs Negro Casas, Puma, Tiger

4) Volador Jr. vs Mephisto

5) La Máscara & Rush vs Marco Corleone & Máximo Sexy

6) Valiente vs Último Guerrero

7) Atlantis, Carístico, Mistico vs Euforia, Gran Guerrero, Niebla Roja

 

Every match has the potential to be at least good and some could even be great. The only question is if the workers will take the show seriously and not mail it in, since it is technically only a normal TV episode.

[pol]

Enjoyed this one:

 

 

Puebla is often the land of guys sleeping through matches, but they had a packed house here and they made the effort for them. Hechicero/Tiger/Puma is such a great rudo team. The upside of Puebla is that the fans seem less ADD than in Arena Mexico, so we get a relatively long first fall with a good amount of matwork leading into an extended (by modern standards) heat segment. Hechicero is on fire throughout.

[goc]

What the hell is this card?

 

 

It's the least CMLL-y card I've ever seen. It's awesome, though.

Just a reminder that this card is tonight and starts at 9:30 PM EST (so pretty much in 2 hours) I will try and watch this if I do not fall asleep. http://www.clarosports.com/en-vivo02/

[pol]

Dug the Hechicero/Rey Bucanero match from the Dia de Muertos show. In some ways I want to call it a one-man show as Bucanero looked like his typical worn-out self throughout, but then he did a crazy dive sequence in the tercera so that wouldn't really be fair. Nice to see Hechicero get a title win as that means more Hechicero singles matches.

[sek69]

Even New Japan thinks that card is awesome, as they are going to air it with Japanese commentary on NJPW World on Sunday.

[WingedEagle]

Will this show be posted on Youtube?