"Black-Wrestlers" vs Black Wrestlers?

[Johnny Sorrow]

In what bizarro world is Kim Kardashian the most sought after and desirable female in the United States ?

[supremebve]

 

 

fakeplastictrees: this is a reeeeaaaaallllly tricky road to go down, as it can easily come off as policing black people. in that post, i saw a lot of the same attitudes that lead women to shame other women for porn & sex work ("living up to the stereotype" etc.).

 

heck, there's a real-world example of that in wrestling: Rocky Johnson hating Tony Atlas because of his shuckin' & jivin'

Yeah, in my experience as a black person it is that the whole "acting/talking white" thing is way overplayed. I'm from a fairly rough area(I lived next door to a guy who killed a couple people) and I don't think anyone said anything like that as anything other than a joke. I was at my aunt's funeral yesterday and a bunch of people got together afterwards. There was about as big of a mix of black people there as you'll ever see. We were at my Aunt's best friends house with lawyers, police, drug dealers, ministers, a college professor and everyone in between. A bunch of the guys were in the basement shooting pool and one of the most educated people in the room made fun a a local drug dealer for being a nerd for how long he was studying every shot. Nothing about this dude was a nerd except for how he played pool, but that is what was going on at the time so that was the joke. That is essentially every example of that nonsense that I've ever seen. Maybe people are super sensitive about that type of thing, but I've essentially been a book reading, grammar nazi, dork since I was a kid. Is that what people would bring up when we were snapping on each other? Yep, but do I think anyone ever thought I was less black because of it? Nope.

 

I would never be perceived as a person on color, I don't necessarily consider myself one but I do have some Latino heritage. That being said most of my friends and acquaintances who are have openly talked about this as an issues at least at some point. While you are probably correct that it isn't that big of a deal because in the end you either are or you aren't black. I would say one thing thought that you are in a area that sounds very close knit, with people of many varying prosperity levels interacting but, could or would the community look at one of those lawyers differently if they suddenly started code-switching and stopped showing up for pool parties and other social events?

 

I think the problem comes when people start "code switching" or whatever the fuck that is. My mom was stabbed twice in high school, my father has been to prison multiple times, one of my grandfathers was a number runner and the other was a notorious bar room brawler. My grandmother cut a woman in the neighborhood for flirting with my grandfather, and I could continue this family history for probably another 500 words. My parents got divorced when I was about 5 or 6, my mom has two masters degrees and is working on a Ph. D. We go back home and everyone treats us exactly the same, because we treat them exactly the same. My aunt died, and my cousin who is married to a college professor and lives 2500 miles away came home and all of our drug dealing, gang banging ass friends showed up to show their love. Those dudes are our friends since we were children, and it is because we never tried to front like we were any better than them. We come from the same place, know the same people, and been through a lot of the same things. They decided to live their lives one way and we decided to live ours another, but we never treated them any different and therefore they never treated us any different. We all actively root for each other, because that is what friends do. Look, I know some people who have committed some of the most heinous acts you can imagine. The entire world can turn their backs to them, but I won't because there is a part of me that could have very easily been in the same situation. I have more respect for them than I do for the Bill Cosby ass dudes who want to rant and rave about how they should live their lives. Most of the people I know who are in the street hard, understand that they chose a shitty life, but it isn't a life you can live halfway. I have a general belief that you get back what you put into relationships, so I try to show the love and respect I want back from the people I love and respect. It hasn't failed yet, and I'd bet a lot of the people complaining about being treated poorly probably treated others poorly. That is kind of how it works in my experience.

[Luchaundead]

In what bizarro world is Kim Kardashian the most sought after and desirable female in the United States ?

I assumed Trees was talking about Kylie Jenner

 

 

Supremebve I can't disagree with you at all but how would you feel about Bill Cosby ass dude who was also a wrestler? Would that effect the way you rate his work?

[Johnny Sorrow]

In what bizarro world is Kylie Jenner the most sought after and desirable female in the United States ?

[Luchaundead]

In the bizarro world that is teens/tween twitter and tumblr. She's super hot right now I mean Tyga was willing to risk jail time for her.

[supremebve]

 

In what bizarro world is Kim Kardashian the most sought after and desirable female in the United States ?

I assumed Trees was talking about Kylie Jenner

 

 

Supremebve I can't disagree with you at all but how would you feel about Bill Cosby ass dude who was also a wrestler? Would that effect the way you rate his work?

 

He'd be like Bret Hart was a heel in the States and a face everywhere else. All the black fans would hate him, but I think a good majority of everyone else would cheer him. Patrick Clark is supposedly doing a black Trump supporter on NXT house shows and I think it is a great idea. I honestly think it is one of the smartest ideas they've ever had for a black wrestler. It is a gimmick that is not necessarily exclusively black, but being black puts a spin on it that takes it to a whole new place. The thing about racial discussions in general is that people try to act like equal means the same, when that isn't what it means at all. When black people say that they want to be treated equal, we mean we don't want to be treated differently based on our differences, not that there aren't differences. There are clear differences that can be acknowledged in smart, interesting ways. If you think of a white Trump supporter, you can make certain assumptions about how he feels about politics, race, business, and a multitude of other things. When you think of a black Trump supporter, there is literally a whole different set of assumptions you can make about him. I joke with one of my friends all the time about how you you should never ignore warning signs. There are certain traits that come up where you should never be surprised what comes out of someone's mouth. Patrick Clark, who just happens to be a smiling black dude with no facial hair, is the exact dude I'm talking about. George Carlin had a joke that went something like this, "If a man smiles all the time, he's probably selling something that doesn't work." That is the pretty much the way a good deal of black people would see Patrick Clark in his pro Trump gimmick. He could save a bus full of school children after it drove through a burning building only to fall down a well, and part of me would wonder if he's the one who set the fire and opened the well. He's the perfect storm of the dude you know who thinks he knows what is best for you, when his wife is cheating on him, his car just got repossessed, and his house is under foreclosure. He goes back to his old neighborhood and everyone looks at him like...

[Luchaundead]

OMG I fucking love that gimmick your are spot on with your analysis of it as well thank you so much for that. Not only for letting me know about that gimmick but, also for making me actually think about it in a different way.

[supremebve]

OMG I fucking love that gimmick your are spot on with your analysis of it as well thank you so much for that. Not only for letting me know about that gimmick but, also for making me actually think about it in a different way.

I always thought a surefire way to get a black wrestler over as a heel is to make him a cocky ass, and pair him with a pretty blonde woman. Think Floyd Mayweather, who would walk down to the ring and have a sloppy, uncomfortable makeout session with Lana every time he got into the ring. He'd have to be legitimately great in the ring, but if they found the right person he'd be over like gangbusters.

[El-P]

I always thought a surefire way to get a black wrestler over as a heel is to make him a cocky ass, and pair him with a pretty blonde woman.

 

Isn't this a bit of an old-school kinda racist gimmick anyway ? The hot white woman and the heel black guy ? It's exactly what Doom were in the days with Woman.

[jushin muta liger]

In the bizarro world that is teens/tween twitter and tumblr. She's super hot right now I mean Tyga was willing to risk jail time for her.

Also a bizarro world where these two girls are getting close to $30k a month for posting photos of themselves from sponsors and apps like the Kardashians.

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3597854/Meet-Belfie-Queens-Nadia-Dana-Bruna-Florida-earning-20-000-month-posting-pictures-enormous-surgically-enhanced-posteriors-Instagram.html

[jushin muta liger]

 

 

I always thought a surefire way to get a black wrestler over as a heel is to make him a cocky ass, and pair him with a pretty blonde woman.

Isn't this a bit of an old-school kinda racist gimmick anyway ? The hot white woman and the heel black guy ? It's exactly what Doom were in the days with Woman.

It's weird that Jay Lethal and Cedric Alexander have in a way done that in ROH with Taeler Hendrix and Veda Scott respectively but both are not blonde bombshells like a Lana for example and both never really generated racist heat.

[El-P]

 

 

I always thought a surefire way to get a black wrestler over as a heel is to make him a cocky ass, and pair him with a pretty blonde woman.

Isn't this a bit of an old-school kinda racist gimmick anyway ? The hot white woman and the heel black guy ? It's exactly what Doom were in the days with Woman.

It's weird that Jay Lethal and Cedric Alexander have in a way done that in ROH with Taeler Hendrix and Veda Scott respectively but both are not blonde bombshells like a Lana for example and both never really generated racist heat.

 

Times have changed, thankfully. I guess. Unless I underrate the "blonde bombshell" element of the whole picture.

[supremebve]

 

 

 

I always thought a surefire way to get a black wrestler over as a heel is to make him a cocky ass, and pair him with a pretty blonde woman.

Isn't this a bit of an old-school kinda racist gimmick anyway ? The hot white woman and the heel black guy ? It's exactly what Doom were in the days with Woman.

It's weird that Jay Lethal and Cedric Alexander have in a way done that in ROH with Taeler Hendrix and Veda Scott respectively but both are not blonde bombshells like a Lana for example and both never really generated racist heat.

 

Times have changed, thankfully. I guess. Unless I underrate the "blonde bombshell" element of the whole picture.

 

I think she'd essentially have to be America's sweetheart, and he'd have to be America's nightmare. Neither Jay Lethal or Cedric Alexander are hateable enough for it to work. That is why I said, Floyd Mayweather. We need the guy to be really good, really obnoxious, and really cocky about it. Then add on top of him being the biggest dickbag in the world, you'd have the outrageously over the top public display of affection with a girl that everyone in the audience wants to be with. That combination would lead to massive heel heat, it isn't just black guy and white girl, it is THAT black guy with THAT white girl.

[NintendoLogic]

 

 

I always thought a surefire way to get a black wrestler over as a heel is to make him a cocky ass, and pair him with a pretty blonde woman.

Isn't this a bit of an old-school kinda racist gimmick anyway ? The hot white woman and the heel black guy ? It's exactly what Doom were in the days with Woman.

And it didn't even work. WCW brass thought that pairing black men with a white woman would make Doom the hottest act in wrestling, but they were more over with Teddy Long as their manager.

[Loss]

Cornette also thought it would work for Sunny and Faarooq in the WWF.

[PeteF3]

Cornette tried that with Sunny on not one, not two, but three different occasions. Tony Atlas was originally supposed to be her first protege when she debuted and was looking for someone to manage, but that fell through. Then he wanted to put her with the Gangstas and she refused. It was like a mental block with him trying to ramrod this angle to its conclusion.

[Jingus]

Patrick Clark is supposedly doing a black Trump supporter on NXT house shows and I think it is a great idea. I honestly think it is one of the smartest ideas they've ever had for a black wrestler. It is a gimmick that is not necessarily exclusively black, but being black puts a spin on it that takes it to a whole new place. The thing about racial discussions in general is that people try to act like equal means the same, when that isn't what it means at all. When black people say that they want to be treated equal, we mean we don't want to be treated differently based on our differences, not that there aren't differences. There are clear differences that can be acknowledged in smart, interesting ways. If you think of a white Trump supporter, you can make certain assumptions about how he feels about politics, race, business, and a multitude of other things. When you think of a black Trump supporter, there is literally a whole different set of assumptions you can make about him. I joke with one of my friends all the time about how you you should never ignore warning signs. There are certain traits that come up where you should never be surprised what comes out of someone's mouth. Patrick Clark, who just happens to be a smiling black dude with no facial hair, is the exact dude I'm talking about. George Carlin had a joke that went something like this, "If a man smiles all the time, he's probably selling something that doesn't work." That is the pretty much the way a good deal of black people would see Patrick Clark in his pro Trump gimmick. He could save a bus full of school children after it drove through a burning building only to fall down a well, and part of me would wonder if he's the one who set the fire and opened the well. He's the perfect storm of the dude you know who thinks he knows what is best for you, when his wife is cheating on him, his car just got repossessed, and his house is under foreclosure. He goes back to his old neighborhood and everyone looks at him like...

I think it's a terrible gimmick, for one reason: I can't imagine Vince allowing it. Clark will almost certainly be sent home and either fired or repackaged, once Vince finally pays any attention to what they're doing at an NXT house show. They would never allow any blatant criticism of Trump to air on television. And if they try to retool him as a pro-Trump babyface, that's like making him Kerwin White Jr and his career would probably be dead on arrival.

 

.

 

[Johnny Sorrow]

In the bizarro world that is teens/tween twitter and tumblr. She's super hot right now I mean Tyga was willing to risk jail time for her.

Oh well, if "Tyga" thinks so. 😄

Dude, I DJ'd at a Strip Club long enough to know that dudes like that are disposable zeroes.

[Boondocks Kernoodle]

 

 

I always thought a surefire way to get a black wrestler over as a heel is to make him a cocky ass, and pair him with a pretty blonde woman.

Isn't this a bit of an old-school kinda racist gimmick anyway ? The hot white woman and the heel black guy ? It's exactly what Doom were in the days with Woman.

And it didn't even work. WCW brass thought that pairing black men with a white woman would make Doom the hottest act in wrestling, but they were more over with Teddy Long as their manager.

 

 

 

Cornette also thought it would work for Sunny and Faarooq in the WWF.

 

 

WWF also thought having Butch Reed dye his hair blond and call himself "The Natural" would get huge heat. Both Doom members, two-time victims of promoters' bizarre assumptions about what makes white people angry.

[Jingus]

Not really that bizarre. I remember hanging out one time with a family I hadn't met before; at one point in the conversation, someone mentioned a white friend of theirs had been assaulted by her black husband. One of the women just nodded and said "That's what you get from consorting with (N-WORD)s" in total dead-serious sincerity. She was a wrestler's wife. These people really do still exist. This was in the year 2002 or thereabouts. Just look at all the people today who still whine about how great the Confederate flag is.

 

Wrestling's primary audience in America has always been lower-class white people, and you're inevitably going to find a certain amount of racism among that demographic. Around 2003, I was once managing an evil heel vampire-ish Batboy-looking creep of a guy, against a good-looking clean-cut athletic black babyface who had a generic "heroic sportsman" gimmick. In support of the disgusting blood-drooling Hot-Topic-wearing heel, one of the old redneck ladies in the crowd screamed "WHY DON'T YA GO BACK TO AFRICA, YA FUCKIN' (N-WORD)!" at the babyface. And nobody else shouted her down! There was a brief moment of nervous laughter from some of the other fans, and that was it.

 

These are just a couple of examples, but I could KEEP going, about "the time a guy in the crowd seriously threatened to have the Ku Klux Klan murder the black heels" kind of stuff which aren't hypothetical nor terribly rare. The sad fact is that wrestling in this country is aimed at one of the most racist demographics we've got.

[MoS]

Not related to this, but I remember being told "Listen, you fucking dothead. Go kilk yourself. You are already taking away our jobs. Don't take away our wrestling as well." when I had the temerity to suggest that giving Khali the secondary world title for a month or so was not an irredeemably awful decision, since it was getting a lot of free publicity here in Ibdia, and it could only be a good thing. And in hindsight, I was right; India has to be at minimum the 3rd most profitable market for WWE after the US and UK. But saying that was sacrilegious, and I am guessing "dothead" is a racial slur used becayse many Indians shave their heads but apply tika on their foreheads, I guess?

 

Had it just been one racist fan, I wouldn't have noticed. But the sentiment was echoed by many; I remember that post being quoted with "Preach, brother." and shit like that. He wasn't warned. It makes me think that racism is considered almost a natural trait of many wrestling fans by outsiders.

[fakeplastictrees]

I can see how my comments can come off as policing black people, but I think of it as a bit different. The message isn't "Don't be/do X", but rather "Don't be afraid to be/do X". I have seen it in every day life where people of color limit themselves and stigmatize themselves with a gimmick of 'the hood' that is, in all reality, un-creative and far from charming. I think there can be 'street' elements with Black wrestlers without pulling out the worse aspects. Look at John Cena. Appropriation at its finest and yet he has avoided the gun shot motifs, the gang pattern designs, etc. I have longed believe that Vince McMahon and other's definition of the 'street' and 'hood' and the styles/culture within is patterned off of Michael Jackson's The Way You Make Me Feel music video and Elvis' Jail House Rock. Its not relevant and if you think watching Season 1 of the The Wire will 'get you up to speed', then there is a lot more study that needs to be done. So how can WWE and pro wrestling allow a black wrester to be a black wrestler while at the same time being a wrestler that happens to be black? Staying relevant is one way. R. Truth should be coming to the ring rocking the newest Supreme dickie's and since he wrestles in sneakers anyways why is he not rocking the new Kobe's, Jordan's, etc. WWE has so much money they can easily get buzz on sneaker websites, TMZ, etc. by having R-Truth come out rocking the new Yeezy's. This all plays into the street elements without playing into the negative street elements that is mainly attributed by the white man's view of the black community. WWE and pro wrestling can show the positives with reflecting and glorifying and fore-fronting the negatives and the stereotypes that are used/viewed as negatives.

 

We also have to ensure we are embracing blackness and all attributes associated to blackness. I alluded to Kim Kardashian earlier and this is the zeitgeist we live in. Pro wrestling should embrace this point in history where tons of women around the world are looking toward a woman who is spending tons of women to have these Afro/Caribbean/Latin features. This is a point in time where someone like Amber Rose is rocking the natural look and has over 11 million Instagram followers and 3 million Twitter followers. Perhaps its time for Foxy to ditch the unconvincing weaves that try desperately to adhere to a European viewpoint of beauty. Black wrestler can and should be more than what they believe they can be, need to be, and what they are told to be. Again, New Day has taken a bunch of stereotypes and parodied them to the point that they are background to a much larger picture of three guys who are fucking over as shit and who just happen to be black.

[supremebve]

I can see how my comments can come off as policing black people, but I think of it as a bit different. The message isn't "Don't be/do X", but rather "Don't be afraid to be/do X". I have seen it in every day life where people of color limit themselves and stigmatize themselves with a gimmick of 'the hood' that is, in all reality, un-creative and far from charming. I think there can be 'street' elements with Black wrestlers without pulling out the worse aspects. Look at John Cena. Appropriation at its finest and yet he has avoided the gun shot motifs, the gang pattern designs, etc. I have longed believe that Vince McMahon and other's definition of the 'street' and 'hood' and the styles/culture within is patterned off of Michael Jackson's The Way You Make Me Feel music video and Elvis' Jail House Rock. Its not relevant and if you think watching Season 1 of the The Wire will 'get you up to speed', then there is a lot more study that needs to be done. So how can WWE and pro wrestling allow a black wrester to be a black wrestler while at the same time being a wrestler that happens to be black? Staying relevant is one way. R. Truth should be coming to the ring rocking the newest Supreme dickie's and since he wrestles in sneakers anyways why is he not rocking the new Kobe's, Jordan's, etc. WWE has so much money they can easily get buzz on sneaker websites, TMZ, etc. by having R-Truth come out rocking the new Yeezy's. This all plays into the street elements without playing into the negative street elements that is mainly attributed by the white man's view of the black community. WWE and pro wrestling can show the positives with reflecting and glorifying and fore-fronting the negatives and the stereotypes that are used/viewed as negatives.

 

We also have to ensure we are embracing blackness and all attributes associated to blackness. I alluded to Kim Kardashian earlier and this is the zeitgeist we live in. Pro wrestling should embrace this point in history where tons of women around the world are looking toward a woman who is spending tons of women to have these Afro/Caribbean/Latin features. This is a point in time where someone like Amber Rose is rocking the natural look and has over 11 million Instagram followers and 3 million Twitter followers. Perhaps its time for Foxy to ditch the unconvincing weaves that try desperately to adhere to a European viewpoint of beauty. Black wrestler can and should be more than what they believe they can be, need to be, and what they are told to be. Again, New Day has taken a bunch of stereotypes and parodied them to the point that they are background to a much larger pitch of three guys who are fucking over as shit and who just happen to be black.

Exactly why I like the idea of Patrick Clark being a Trump supporter. Being black is not one thing. There are black Trump supporters, black people who hate Obama, and black people who represent thousands of other things that are never represented in popular culture. There is no reason not to put those characters on television. The issue is in representation. Black people are often portrayed as a monolith, where every black person has the same values, interests, and opinions. How many times do you hear someone say. "The black community thinks..." or "That is what they're saying in the barbershops." If there is one thing that I've learned it is that there is no consensus opinion with any group about anything. The reason black barbershop conversations are often entertaining is because it is the one place where basically every black man goes. Those conversations are generally one person saying something someone else finds absurd and everyone in the shop adds their two cents. None of those conversations would work if black people all agreed on everything. There are interesting stories that have just plain never been told, because we always want black people to be one thing.

[Johnny Sorrow]

Not related to this, but I remember being told "Listen, you fucking dothead. Go kilk yourself. You are already taking away our jobs. Don't take away our wrestling as well." when I had the temerity to suggest that giving Khali the secondary world title for a month or so was not an irredeemably awful decision, since it was getting a lot of free publicity here in Ibdia, and it could only be a good thing. And in hindsight, I was right; India has to be at minimum the 3rd most profitable market for WWE after the US and UK. But saying that was sacrilegious, and I am guessing "dothead" is a racial slur used becayse many Indians shave their heads but apply tika on their foreheads, I guess?

 

Had it just been one racist fan, I wouldn't have noticed. But the sentiment was echoed by many; I remember that post being quoted with "Preach, brother." and shit like that.

What fucking cesspool full of douchebag losers did this happen at?

[MoS]

 

Not related to this, but I remember being told "Listen, you fucking dothead. Go kilk yourself. You are already taking away our jobs. Don't take away our wrestling as well." when I had the temerity to suggest that giving Khali the secondary world title for a month or so was not an irredeemably awful decision, since it was getting a lot of free publicity here in Ibdia, and it could only be a good thing. And in hindsight, I was right; India has to be at minimum the 3rd most profitable market for WWE after the US and UK. But saying that was sacrilegious, and I am guessing "dothead" is a racial slur used becayse many Indians shave their heads but apply tika on their foreheads, I guess?

 

Had it just been one racist fan, I wouldn't have noticed. But the sentiment was echoed by many; I remember that post being quoted with "Preach, brother." and shit like that.

What fucking cesspool full of douchebag losers did this happen at?

 

 

This happened at LoP, but in the board's defence, it was in a section called "Free-for-all", where flaming was explicitly allowed, and implicitly encouraged. Was a long time ago as well, 9 years or so. Maybe that section is much milder now.