El-P Posted August 20, 2016 Report Share Posted August 20, 2016 It's fucking hilarious that some of you are getting worked up about Parv's verkackta "scores". "How can you give so and so a FOUR?" Haha. A dude makes up a scoring system and fucking OCD motherfuckers can't help but treat it as something real. No. We're just pointing out why Parv is full of shit and double talk with his own criterias. It's fun. To some extent. Funny no one talked about the Mastunaga Brothers, because really : Mastery over crowd: 10 (CRUSH GALS) Innovation: 10 (they invented joshi puroresu as we know it) Angles: 10 (CRUSH GALS) Quality of Cards: 10 Finances: 10 (during the glory years, hell yeah) Talent spotting / New stars: 10, at the very least. So yeah. The winners are : the Matsunaga Brothers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted August 20, 2016 Author Report Share Posted August 20, 2016 It's fucking hilarious that some of you are getting worked up about Parv's verkackta "scores". "How can you give so and so a FOUR?" Haha. A dude makes up a scoring system and fucking OCD motherfuckers can't help but treat it as something real. No. We're just pointing out why Parv is full of shit and double talk with his own criterias. It's fun. To some extent. What is this? Just use common sense. Jake became a star in WWF, whereas DiBiase, Piper, Valentine, Steamboat, and Duggan were already stars before they came. It's not criteria it's just basic facts. Hall and Nash were stars before they jumped to WCW, Benoit and co much like Jake in the 80s didn't really become big stars until their WWF runs. There's no double talk: just facts and common sense. Apply some. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted August 20, 2016 Report Share Posted August 20, 2016 Isn't there a very valid argument that Vince hired away everyone else's stars in the 80s? Tito was an ethnic main eventer in Houston before he main evented shows for Vince. Hell, Boesch put him over Bockwinkel on his big Anniversary Show. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted August 20, 2016 Report Share Posted August 20, 2016 Isn't there a very valid argument that Vince hired away everyone else's stars in the 80s? Of course. He made them even bigger stars of course, on a national and international level. But he took every big star from every territory. If you narrow it down to the people he created from scratch, there isn't much left actually. Warrior… But it's beating on a dead horse. (funny how NXT today is basically a bunch of guys who already were stars elsewhere. I mean, are we gonna say in 5 years that Trips & Vince made Nakamura a star ?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted August 20, 2016 Report Share Posted August 20, 2016 No, Uncle Hunter will make Nakamura a star. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted August 20, 2016 Report Share Posted August 20, 2016 And teach him how to work too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goc Posted August 20, 2016 Report Share Posted August 20, 2016 There is a big inconsistency with crediting Vince for some of those guys in the 80s while denying Eric Bischoff credit for so many in the 90s. So WWF gave Jake, Honkytonk, Brutus, etc their first big national exposure and made them featured midcard players, some of whom held secondary titles, and that's credited as "making them stars." But in the 90s apparently the only way you could become a star was to get DA BELT~! so somehow the criteria used for Vince in the 80s doesn't apply to Eric Bischoff giving Jericho, Rey, Benoit, Eddie, Raven big national exposure and making them featured midcard acts who held secondary titles. How is that not almost the exact same thing as what happened with Tito or Rick Rude? Even though WCW taking guys from Mexico, Japan and ECW was the closest thing to the 80s version of WWF raiding territory talent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted August 20, 2016 Report Share Posted August 20, 2016 But in the 90s apparently the only way you could become a star was to get DA BELT~! so somehow the criteria used for Vince in the 80s doesn't apply to Eric Bischoff giving Jericho, Rey, Benoit, Eddie, Raven big national exposure and making them featured midcard acts who held secondary titles. How is that not almost the exact same thing as what happened with Tito or Rick Rude? Even though WCW taking guys from Mexico, Japan and ECW was the closest thing to the 80s version of WWF raiding territory talent. Exactly. Plus you can argue that doing so, WCW broke the mold in giving lighter, smaller workers an exposure and credibility that the WWF never was able or willing to. Does anyone think WWF would have got their hands on guys like Eddie, Benoit, Malenko, Jericho & Rey (much less pushing them near top of the card) if these guys had not been a big part of those exciting and hot WCW undercards during the hottest Nitro years ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KrisZ Posted August 20, 2016 Report Share Posted August 20, 2016 There is a lot of ridiculousness in this thread but I want to touch on one thing....... Jake Roberts was a star in the wrestling world before going to WWF.....national TV on TBS in both GCW & Mid-South.....national TV with World Class in syndication. DDT was the ultimate killshot wrestling move before he went into WWF....WWF took him and made him a bigger star but he was definitely a star before he went there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted August 20, 2016 Author Report Share Posted August 20, 2016 There is a lot of ridiculousness in this thread but I want to touch on one thing....... Jake Roberts was a star in the wrestling world before going to WWF.....national TV on TBS in both GCW & Mid-South.....national TV with World Class in syndication. DDT was the ultimate killshot wrestling move before he went into WWF....WWF took him and made him a bigger star but he was definitely a star before he went there. Do you think pre-WWF Jake was a star on the level of Ted, Piper, Greg, Duggan, or Steamboat? If so, completely news to me. Just never thought about his GCW or Watts runs in that way and I've watched most of the Watts stuff. Don't see him in that light. How much does it underrate him not to? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KrisZ Posted August 20, 2016 Report Share Posted August 20, 2016 There is a lot of ridiculousness in this thread but I want to touch on one thing....... Jake Roberts was a star in the wrestling world before going to WWF.....national TV on TBS in both GCW & Mid-South.....national TV with World Class in syndication. DDT was the ultimate killshot wrestling move before he went into WWF....WWF took him and made him a bigger star but he was definitely a star before he went there. Do you think pre-WWF Jake was a star on the level of Ted, Piper, Greg, Duggan, or Steamboat? If so, completely news to me. Just never thought about his GCW or Watts runs in that way and I've watched most of the Watts stuff. Don't see him in that light. How much does it underrate him not to? He was definitely at the level of DiBiase & Duggan.....Piper & Valentine were already in WWF and Steamer had his long JCP run. The deal with Jake was you wouldn't know how big of a star he was by his pushes........he was extremely way more over than his push...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted August 20, 2016 Author Report Share Posted August 20, 2016 There is a big inconsistency with crediting Vince for some of those guys in the 80s while denying Eric Bischoff credit for so many in the 90s. So WWF gave Jake, Honkytonk, Brutus, etc their first big national exposure and made them featured midcard players, some of whom held secondary titles, and that's credited as "making them stars." But in the 90s apparently the only way you could become a star was to get DA BELT~! so somehow the criteria used for Vince in the 80s doesn't apply to Eric Bischoff giving Jericho, Rey, Benoit, Eddie, Raven big national exposure and making them featured midcard acts who held secondary titles. How is that not almost the exact same thing as what happened with Tito or Rick Rude? Even though WCW taking guys from Mexico, Japan and ECW was the closest thing to the 80s version of WWF raiding territory talent. I asked you before: do you think Jericho in 97 was as over and "big" as someone like Jake or Honky in 87? Did he headline B-circuit house shows? I guess what I'm saying is that it meant more to be a mid-carder in 87 WWF and in 97 WCW. It's because WCW had THAT much many more main eventers whereas WWF it was Hogan and opponent for the best part. The gap between Hogan and Rude in 89 is bigger than the gap between him and Jericho in 97 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted August 20, 2016 Report Share Posted August 20, 2016 It's fucking hilarious that some of you are getting worked up about Parv's verkackta "scores". "How can you give so and so a FOUR?" Haha. A dude makes up a scoring system and fucking OCD motherfuckers can't help but treat it as something real. Oh and Jake wasn't a star before WWF cause before that he was a guy nobody had ever heard of unless you lived in the areas that had the TV he was on or read the mags. I'm only beginning to read the thread but this doesn't seem particularly constructive or nice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted August 20, 2016 Report Share Posted August 20, 2016 One thing that perplexes me about some of the early names selected is that they seem to be promoter ratings instead of booker ratings. Bill Watts had a booker who worked for him. So did Vince much of the time even while being heavily involved in conceiving plans. I don't know how involved Vince Sr. was in the actual booking or if he delegated that. Eric Bischoff was never a booker. Should we call this promoter ratings? I think it's important to distinguish the two roles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted August 20, 2016 Author Report Share Posted August 20, 2016 As far as I know Vince Sr booked from a little hotel room with a bunch of old guys in there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcmmnx Posted August 20, 2016 Report Share Posted August 20, 2016 The "bunch of guys that were stars elsewhere" routinely got out popped and out performed by NXT's home grown women's division. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WingedEagle Posted August 21, 2016 Report Share Posted August 21, 2016 Bringing in Sid and having him be the most over guy in the company. Sabu = Greatest things ever, the icon of ECW. Crowd ate it up. Then. "Oh, fuck Sabu because he's not showing up !". And the crowd ate it up. Then. Sabu's back, handshake, he's the greatest thing ever. And the crowd ate it up. Heyman could do whatever he wanted. Did we mention 911 yet ? It made for phenomenal television back in the day. But on the other hand, how many big houses did all of that Sabu magic draw? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebrainfollower Posted August 21, 2016 Report Share Posted August 21, 2016 The thing is Parv, you are applying 80's criteria to 90's wrestlers. You ask if Jericho, Rey, etc main evented B shows? No they didn't. Because there weren't any WCW B house shows to main event. The company was not a house show company by then, it was a wrestling show on TV that occasionally did house shows, but those were of very little importance to it, and it only ran one a night at most. So that's not a fair comparison. Where they were on TV during the time is a much more valid way of comparing their worth. And those guys main evented Saturday Night, Pro, Worldwide and the other many random WCW TV shows all the time. As to which meant more, I'd call it a wash honestly but it's really comparing apples and oranges. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted August 21, 2016 Author Report Share Posted August 21, 2016 The thing is Parv, you are applying 80's criteria to 90's wrestlers. You ask if Jericho, Rey, etc main evented B shows? No they didn't. Because there weren't any WCW B house shows to main event. The company was not a house show company by then, it was a wrestling show on TV that occasionally did house shows, but those were of very little importance to it, and it only ran one a night at most. So that's not a fair comparison. Where they were on TV during the time is a much more valid way of comparing their worth. And those guys main evented Saturday Night, Pro, Worldwide and the other many random WCW TV shows all the time. As to which meant more, I'd call it a wash honestly but it's really comparing apples and oranges. And still I ask: was Jericho as big a star in 1997 as DiBiase, Jake, Rude, Honky, Bossman, and co in the late 80s? I'd love to see someone lay out the argument that he was. I'm picking Jericho cos I think out of him, Eddie, Rey, Benoit etc., he was probably the biggest star in WCW terms. Comes down to two things: 1. size of roster (average in late 80s, around 50 workers for WWF, average in late 90s, 90+ workers for WCW) 2. number of main eventers In the late 80s, the main event scence consists of basically 3-4 people at any given time. It's Hogan, Savage, and then take your pick of two of a rotating cast of heels who can move up and down the card as necessary. In the late 90s, the main event comprises Hogan, Giant, Hall, Nash, Luger, Sting, Flair even, Savage, Goldberg eventually, DDP eventually ... there are a LOT of names before you get to Jericho. Maybe even Steiner Brothers ahead of him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted August 21, 2016 Report Share Posted August 21, 2016 I think the problem with these lists is that it's a squishy mix of trying to quantify qualitative things. You basically have to more carefully define what a star is before starting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted August 21, 2016 Author Report Share Posted August 21, 2016 I think it's completely obvious based on common sense and nothing else. Dean vs. Jericho was a lower card feud. Jericho facing off against Gedo low down on that card. You can't really compare that to feuds like Jake vs. Ted or Jake vs. Savage where it's the second or third point of interest on a card between two guys with real heat who have main evented. Does that need defining or explaining? Really? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted August 21, 2016 Report Share Posted August 21, 2016 I'm still hung up on Tito or Jake. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted August 21, 2016 Author Report Share Posted August 21, 2016 Tito was a big star in 84-5, around the time he was IC champ. I don't think he was a big star before that, and that star had gone by 87 at the latest as he slid down the card. Jake, I don't know, cos Kris and others seem to think he was a significant territory star in a way that I don't really recognise. I'll be honest, I just don't see him in those terms, but there's disagreement over it. I'd have said 86 with him until about 91. He's still a big enough star to come into the main event at Havoc 92. He wasn't Jericho vs. Gedo level that's for sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted August 21, 2016 Author Report Share Posted August 21, 2016 I can actually pinpoint the exact moment that Chris Jericho became a star. Here it is: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted August 21, 2016 Report Share Posted August 21, 2016 Tito was a big star in 84-5, around the time he was IC champ. I don't think he was a big star before that, and that star had gone by 87 at the latest as he slid down the card. Jake, I don't know, cos Kris and others seem to think he was a significant territory star in a way that I don't really recognise. I'll be honest, I just don't see him in those terms, but there's disagreement over it. I'd have said 86 with him until about 91. He's still a big enough star to come into the main event at Havoc 92. He wasn't Jericho vs. Gedo level that's for sure. We didn't realize how big Tito was in Houston. Boesch gave him the Gold Cup in 81. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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