Resident Evil Posted April 19, 2006 Report Share Posted April 19, 2006 Well, the first part of the deathvalley project is over. I was one of the voters as I think most people already know here. It was a blast watching all of the matches and seeing what people thought of them. I think Deathvalley made a mistake by posting the WWF results "buried" away in a DVDVR review but anyway. I can't wait to watch the rest of the series and see some of the Lucha which is seemingly still being discovered as well as some territories I'm not too familiar with. The most interesting part of the results in my opinion was not really who won but what matches had diverse opinions on them. Now you can get diverse opinions all the time but everyone who got the list had to be a WWF fan so there wasn't someone say going into an overall list and "screwing up" the results by being byist against lucha libre or shoot style for instance. So within all the hardcore fans it was very intriguing to see what people thought. And there were some surprises some pleasant and some not. Anyway, the diverse opinions from memory were really strong on these bouts -- Backland vs Hogan, Santana vs Bass, Hogan vs Macho Man and some others which I forget right now. Now obviously these matches contain elements that both appeal and detract certain emotions in the voters. This makes them an interesting study on what works, what doesn't and with who. So does anyone have any thoughts on these bouts? What makes Backland vs Hogan, Santana vs Bass or Hogan vs Macho Man give all sorts of different emotions to the deathvalley fans? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
World's Worst Man Posted April 19, 2006 Report Share Posted April 19, 2006 I don't think it's the matches as much as some people's criteria or standards. A dime a dozen match to some might be "great" to others. Someone could say they don't care how terrible the offense is, or how much useless stalling there is, and then the negatives that some would see in a Backlund-Hogan or Hogan-Schultz match disappear. I don't mind so much as long as the person is consistent with that belief (and often, they are not). I really think that was the issue with those matches. Some people decided to penalize the match for the flaws, some didn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sek69 Posted April 19, 2006 Report Share Posted April 19, 2006 We've seen it a million times on this board alone how wildly varying people's opinons can be on the same match. Loss and goodhelmet have gone at it like two cats in a wet burlap bag because of how they differ on one match or another. I really don't know what the purpose of the project was other than to confirm that yes, a group of people will have vastly different views on the same 100 matches. I do have to tip my hat to whoever obtained all the footage, they found some hidden gems. It probably was no small undertaking to unearth all that stuff, so job well done. As a definitive ranking of the best 100 matches, I think the list is far too subjective to have any merit, but then any "Best Of" list usually is. I think it was a grand slam in terms of exposing people to wrestlers they may not have heard of or seen in their primes before. From what I've seen, it appears everyone who has the set found a guy they were sleeping on in terms of how well they were in the ring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resident Evil Posted April 19, 2006 Author Report Share Posted April 19, 2006 Anyone want to make a prediction and say what the biggest disputed matches will be in the 80s project? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordi Posted April 19, 2006 Report Share Posted April 19, 2006 I'm guessing the final placing of Savage vs. Steamboat will generate a lot of discussion. It's a match almost everybody has seen, and that a lot of people love dearly, but it's an easy match to underrate because so much of what made the match work has since been beaten to death by the WWF and by wrestlers who saw the match as kids. I'm surprised their haven't been more complaints about it placing second in the WWF poll. I'd guess that Slaughter vs. Sheik will do well on the final poll, but then we'll get many, many, many NWA, territory, and non-US matches before we finally get to Savage vs. Steamboat on the final tally. People like myself might bitch about that. It was my #1 on the WWF ballot, but then I'm old enough to have seen it 'live' on closed circuit, well before the 2.9999-style ending run was spoiled by overuse. The other thing I'm thinking is that during the NWA poll there might be a Flair vs. Steamboat backlash by people who are trying too hard to be clever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sek69 Posted April 19, 2006 Report Share Posted April 19, 2006 It seems the Accepted Official Opinion on Savage-Steamboat has gone from "best US match ever" to "OMG OVERRATED!" in the last couple of years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bix Posted April 19, 2006 Report Share Posted April 19, 2006 I do have to tip my hat to whoever obtained all the footage, they found some hidden gems. It probably was no small undertaking to unearth all that stuff, so job well done. I think it was a grand slam in terms of exposing people to wrestlers they may not have heard of or seen in their primes before. From what I've seen, it appears everyone who has the set found a guy they were sleeping on in terms of how well they were in the ring.Yes, this was good. Everyone loves Sgt. Slaughter now, so I'm happy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coffey Posted April 20, 2006 Report Share Posted April 20, 2006 See, I still like Savage/Steamboat but I think the match would've been better without the Animal Steele drama. Just the dropping of Steamboats neck on the railing with the double-ax and the IC title on the line were enough for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordi Posted April 20, 2006 Report Share Posted April 20, 2006 It seems the Accepted Official Opinion on Savage-Steamboat has gone from "best US match ever" to "OMG OVERRATED!" in the last couple of years. Yep, it sure seems that way. Loss, at least, has an original take on why he doesn't like it so much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted April 20, 2006 Report Share Posted April 20, 2006 I never did like it as much. When people would say it was US MOTY for '87, I'd be surprised at that point of view, considering that's when Flair had all of those great matches with Barry Windham and the first War Games happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anarchistxx Posted April 20, 2006 Report Share Posted April 20, 2006 A little off tooic, but does anybody see this problem with the DVDVR 80's project? It will be going on for 5-8 Years. It took over a year to do the WWF one, and with so many categories left, do people ever think this will get finished? Plus, the voters in 5 years, are obviously going to be very different, and have very different mindsets to the ones now? Will this be a problem? Thoughts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted April 20, 2006 Report Share Posted April 20, 2006 I see that as a good thing, not a bad thing. The dedicated fans will stick around to see the project through to its completion, and the people who were only half-interested from the start will not. New wrestling fans will come along and old ones will stop watching. It's the circle of life. It actually took about 9 months for the first project technically, and in fairness, it was the first time anything like that had ever been attempted. Now that the process has been established, I don't think it will take as long in the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoe Posted April 20, 2006 Report Share Posted April 20, 2006 I thought the project was great, and a lot of fun. The stats at the end were really interesting.Sure their were some bumps in the road which should result in a much smoother transition into the next batch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoe Posted April 20, 2006 Report Share Posted April 20, 2006 I never did like it as much. When people would say it was US MOTY for '87, I'd be surprised at that point of view, considering that's when Flair had all of those great matches with Barry Windham and the first War Games happened. I ranked the Wrestlemania 3 match #2 on my ballot. I too thought the Flair/Windham matches were far superior to it, as was War Games. I even enjoyed the Flair/Garvin title change from Detroit more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sek69 Posted April 20, 2006 Report Share Posted April 20, 2006 Flair/Garvin better than Savage/Steamboat, I think I've heard it all now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted April 20, 2006 Report Share Posted April 20, 2006 I don't know about that particular match, as I haven't seen it in forever, but I have seen other Flair/Garvin matches that are better than the WM III match for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sek69 Posted April 20, 2006 Report Share Posted April 20, 2006 Ronnie's always been a guilty pleasure of mine, but unless there's something from Mid-Atlantic I've never seen, I can't put any match he's a part of above Savage/Steamboat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted April 20, 2006 Report Share Posted April 20, 2006 I think something that hurts Garvin is people translate him as being a bad champion into being a bad worker, when that's not the case at all. They pushed him just past his limitations and paid for it, but as a high-level midcarder pushing the champ to the limit, he rocked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted April 21, 2006 Report Share Posted April 21, 2006 My biggest argument since day one is that I think that matches not included on the DVDs should be allowed in the voting process. There have been too many matches I have seen since the project began that would deserve inclusion. It just seems liek a shame that people were not allowed to vote for them. In the end, I think the results end up a little skewed since it portrays Andre-Khan as the 100th greatest match when it probably wouldn't hit 200 if more matches were allowed on the ballot. With that said, and I have been a critic of the process, I have recently started compiling tons of footage in making comps and I have to commend Bix for the amount of effort it takes to get that many matches in one place. Hell, just for my 2005 comps, the project was delayed upwards of three months because of the difficulty in acquiring footage... modern footage at that. So, being able to compile that much classic footage in one place is huge. The project also piqued my interest in 80s WWF and I may compile an alternate set that includes the top matches of the poll in upgraded VQ as well as matches that may have been overlooked for whatever reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bix Posted April 21, 2006 Report Share Posted April 21, 2006 My biggest argument since day one is that I think that matches not included on the DVDs should be allowed in the voting process. There have been too many matches I have seen since the project began that would deserve inclusion. It just seems liek a shame that people were not allowed to vote for them. In the end, I think the results end up a little skewed since it portrays Andre-Khan as the 100th greatest match when it probably wouldn't hit 200 if more matches were allowed on the ballot. As I noted on F4D, Phil and I were afraid of blind votes and stuff. Given we'll post the nomination list on the MB before finalizing for DVDs from here on, things should work out better this time. I know it's a dumb in many ways, but, well, we're trying to figure out the best way to be functional. With that said, and I have been a critic of the process, I have recently started compiling tons of footage in making comps and I have to commend Bix for the amount of effort it takes to get that many matches in one place.Thanks. Besides just watching our tapes and remembering matches and stuff, we scoured Friedlander's list and got a bunch of Spectrum, Prime Time, and Misc TV stuff, plus a custom of mostly various MSG matches (plus Slaughter-Sheik from landover, Rockers-Rougeaus from London, and a couple other things) that looked interesting, and we ended up w/ the hidden gems like Tito-Bass. Also perused KHawk's list and that gave us Islanders-Strike Force. The project also piqued my interest in 80s WWF and I may compile an alternate set that includes the top matches of the poll in upgraded VQ as well as matches that may have been overlooked for whatever reason.I was thinking of doing this, too. I'll see what needs upgrades and such... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted April 21, 2006 Report Share Posted April 21, 2006 Bix, I'm listening to the F4D podcast right now and really enjoying it. I hope you'll go back and do a show after every category. I'm also hoping you'll get to talk about Rockers/Rougeaus without running out of time. EDIT: And you're getting to it now! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoe Posted April 21, 2006 Report Share Posted April 21, 2006 Flair/Garvin better than Savage/Steamboat, I think I've heard it all now. I feel Garvin/Flair matched up real well. They worked a really good tight match. My main problem with Steamboat/Savage was you didn't feel the hatred. Was I overstating Flair/Garvin as a MOTYC in 87; probaly so. Still I enjoyed the Detroit matchup. They also had several really good matches throughout the years together. Ronnie Garvin was a teriffic worker in the 80's. I bought what he was trying to sell; except being "The Man" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoe Posted April 21, 2006 Report Share Posted April 21, 2006 Besides just watching our tapes and remembering matches and stuff, we scoured Friedlander's list and got a bunch of Spectrum, Prime Time, and Misc TV stuff, plus a custom of mostly various MSG matches (plus Slaughter-Sheik from landover, Rockers-Rougeaus from London, and a couple other things) that looked interesting, and we ended up w/ the hidden gems like Tito-Bass. Bix, why do you think their was a big standard deviation on the Bass/Santana match? Do you or anyone else out their think their reputations as lower/mid card(at that point in time) workers hurt them in some of the voters eyes. I personally liked the match a lot. I ranked it #11 on my ballot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resident Evil Posted April 21, 2006 Author Report Share Posted April 21, 2006 Besides just watching our tapes and remembering matches and stuff, we scoured Friedlander's list and got a bunch of Spectrum, Prime Time, and Misc TV stuff, plus a custom of mostly various MSG matches (plus Slaughter-Sheik from landover, Rockers-Rougeaus from London, and a couple other things) that looked interesting, and we ended up w/ the hidden gems like Tito-Bass. Bix, why do you think their was a big standard deviation on the Bass/Santana match? Do you or anyone else out their think their reputations as lower/mid card(at that point in time) workers hurt them in some of the voters eyes. I personally liked the match a lot. I ranked it #11 on my ballot. It's a strange little bout. I've been a Tito Santana fan for 16 yrs but I still couldn't rate the match that high. There was stuff I remember liking about it and stuff I didn't. If I remember correctly the flow of the match was off some. But I did rate Santana vs Macho Man very high. That was a terrific bout. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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