ROH 2000s vs AJPW 90s

[yesdanielbryan]

What promotion do you prefer between ROH of 2000s and AJPW 90s?

 

What are the positives of the two promotions, and what the negatives?

 

Thank you very much

[GSR]

What promotion do you prefer? What are the positives of the two promotions and what are the negatives?

 

You start all these polls but not once can I ever remember you answering any of the questions you post. It would be nice to hear your opinions to the topics as well!

[yesdanielbryan]

What promotion do you prefer? What are the positives of the two promotions and what are the negatives?

 

You start all these polls but not once can I ever remember you answering any of the questions you post. It would be nice to hear your opinions to the topics as well!

I'm recovering everything possible. In a couple of years I will have a complete opinion.

[yesdanielbryan]

For example, I am watching all possible AJPW matches, starting from the beginning. Now I'm arrived to 80s, so I can't give a full opinion about AJPW 90s, although I watched some matches.

[Mad Dog]

AJPW and it's not even close. RoH had some stretches of brilliance in the 00s but there was also a lot of down times. I loved Joe's reign, Summer of Punk and the CZW feud. AJPW has like a 5 year stretch of hitting it out of the park .

[fxnj]

I have no opinion as ROH is one of those promotions I still want to do a deep dive of, but I think it would be a cool idea to add 80's Crockett and 2010's NJPW into the mix considering those would be the most critically lauded styles of each of their decades and they all built on each other.

[shodate]

Style wise there are one in the same hence why coind the term indie-Road basically Kings Road but not all Japan of the 1990's hell Kings Road style os teh most prevalnet style in the world Stong style is Just a Marketing Term Strong style as been dead or at least 10 years

 

i agree with mad dog here minus Joes run i found it a bore miuns the punk and dragon matches but miuns that his right match quilty wiseall Japan 1990's is eaplcyy 1993-1998 is the most consitant on the world hence why by the time he died baba was the 2nd richest wrestling promotor in theworld

[shodate]

I have no opinion as ROH is one of those promotions I still want to do a deep dive of, but I think it would be a cool idea to add 80's Crockett and 2010's NJPW into the mix considering those would be the most critically lauded styles of each of their decades and they all built on each other.

 

 

2010 new Japan is Kings Road any way Gedo love that style he hate strong-style and shoot style hes said ad=s much himself os in the long Run Baba won

[The Thread Killer]

I collected the entire run of AJPW from 1990 up until the AJPW/Pro-Wrestling Noah split. I then collected the first couple of years of Noah. Unfortunately, this was all on VHS, which means in my crawl space I have a massive box of VHS tapes which I haven't touched in almost 10 years. I also collected the first 25-30 ROH shows on VHS. I got out of the promotion to a degree when the Rob Feinstein scandal broke, then I came back later. I purchased all the "big shows" like the Joe/Punk Trilogy and Joe vs. Kobashi. I have a ton of ROH DVD's that are unopened, that I got a great deal on at an ROH show in Toronto back in 2008. I think those are in a giant plastic tote in the back of my closet. This is all from back in the days when I made a lot more money and had disposable income.

 

It's been a while since I've watched either promotion. Whenever I get a yearning to see some 90's AJPW, I watch it on YouTube. I've never really had an overwhelming desire to see any of that early ROH again...certainly not enough to pull that massive box out of my crawl space (and suffer the inevitable allergy attack from the dust and mites which must be covering that box now) then buy a VCR and hook it up. But I remember that stuff pretty clearly. I watched some of those early ROH shows repeatedly before VHS went the way of the dodo.

 

To be honest, I don't think a lot of that early ROH would hold up all that well. Also, I think it may have kind of set the template for a lot of the spot-heavy independent stuff which still permeates the scene to this day. I could die happily having never seen another Xavier match, or especially a (shudder) "scramble." Don't get me wrong, there is some great stuff in there, but there is also a lot of dated nonsense. I can't even imagine how the "Christopher Street Connection" would go over with Twitter today.

 

Some people might disagree with me, but I think the 90's AJPW stuff is pretty timeless. You can watch a Jumbo & Company vs. Misawa and Friends 6 Man match, or any of the "Four Corners" matches today and they're just as dramatic and compelling as they were at the time. And that's not even getting into the Misawa/Kawada rivalry or Misawa/Kobashi matches. As far as negatives, you could aim the same complaints at them that some do at current NJPW...the matches are long and take a hell of a long time to get where they're going. Also, the style is undeniably brutal. It's not a coincidence that Misawa died in the ring from a neck injury and Kobashi had to retire after missing years of action due to injury. It can be hard to watch that old stuff now, knowing what those guys were doing to their bodies.

 

But from a quality standpoint, I can't really see a compelling argument that would convince me ROH was any better than AJPW. If nothing else, based on the sheer volume of the work. If you believe in Meltzer star ratings, then check out this famous list. Like I said, the sheer volume of high quality matches is unparalleled. I don't think we'll ever see a single promotion produce so many classic matches in such a time frame ever again.

 

To me, it's AJPW and it's pretty much a no-brainer.

[JNLister]

 

To be honest, I don't think a lot of that early ROH would hold up all that well. Also, I think it may have kind of set the template for a lot of the spot-heavy independent stuff which still permeates the scene to this day. I could die happily having never seen another Xavier match, or especially a (shudder) "scramble." Don't get me wrong, there is some great stuff in there, but there is also a lot of dated nonsense. I can't even imagine how the "Christopher Street Connection" would go over with Twitter today.

 

 

 

 

https://soundcloud.com/lovethegraps/lovethegraps-episode-47-firsts-miniseries-roh-era-of-honor-begins revisits the first ROH show and has the reaction you'd expect.

[Mad Dog]

In my experience the main events hold up well and certain matches have aged better than you think. A lot of the undercards haven't.

[Tim Cooke]

AJPW - not even close and I'm a big ROH 2002-2006 fan

[Migs]

 

 

To be honest, I don't think a lot of that early ROH would hold up all that well. Also, I think it may have kind of set the template for a lot of the spot-heavy independent stuff which still permeates the scene to this day. I could die happily having never seen another Xavier match, or especially a (shudder) "scramble." Don't get me wrong, there is some great stuff in there, but there is also a lot of dated nonsense. I can't even imagine how the "Christopher Street Connection" would go over with Twitter today.

 

 

 

 

https://soundcloud.com/lovethegraps/lovethegraps-episode-47-firsts-miniseries-roh-era-of-honor-begins revisits the first ROH show and has the reaction you'd expect.

 

 

ROH is sort of the apex of the early 2000s indie scene. A lot of the guys were fun at the time because they were unique in various ways, but the guys who actually hold up in any way are generally the main eventers in ROH - Danielson, Low Ki, Punk, Joe, Styles. A lot of the other guys faded away because past some initial novelty, there were just some spots. (I loved the SAT at the time, but there wasn't exactly a ton of depth in those matches.) I'd imagine the most productive way to watch early ROH at this point would just be to hit those main events and safely ignore the undercards. Which, to be fair, seems to be the way most people talk about 90s AJPW - what lingers are the main events, and not so much the midcard (I haven't seen a crazy amount of it, but I've certainly seen a lot of dialogue about it over the years).

[Boss Rock]

90's AJPW, but I've also seen so little of ROH. Was really hoping they could get the classic stuff up for their streaming service but I've heard that they've lost a lot of it over the years.

[SPS]

For me as well I'm a big ROH fan from 2002-2008 even when the quality dropped but AJPW in the 90's still holds up and the had the far better undercard workers which in ROH even at it's best was spotty. And I'll take Baba comedy 6 man tags over the endless ROH scrambles any day. Main events wise both have treasures so there you can pick and choose but top to bottom AJPW wins hands down.

 

*side note while thinking about this did anyone else really cringe when Gabe doing commentary as Jimmy Bower would do the BACKDROP DANGEROUS! deal when guys like BJ Whitmer would hit a Japan popular move off the top rope? Wow even then as a young teen that knew next to nothing about "smarky" stuff I found this to be tryhard as hell.

[G. Badger]

For me as well I'm a big ROH fan from 2002-2008 even when the quality dropped but AJPW in the 90's still holds up and the had the far better undercard workers which in ROH even at it's best was spotty. And I'll take Baba comedy 6 man tags over the endless ROH scrambles any day. Main events wise both have treasures so there you can pick and choose but top to bottom AJPW wins hands down.

 

*side note while thinking about this did anyone else really cringe when Gabe doing commentary as Jimmy Bower would do the BACKDROP DANGEROUS! deal when guys like BJ Whitmer would hit a Japan popular move off the top rope? Wow even then as a young teen that knew next to nothing about "smarky" stuff I found this to be tryhard as hell.

I agree totally. And the commentary up until 2005 was pretty terrible overall. There is way too much talking during the matches.

[Mad Dog]

 

For me as well I'm a big ROH fan from 2002-2008 even when the quality dropped but AJPW in the 90's still holds up and the had the far better undercard workers which in ROH even at it's best was spotty. And I'll take Baba comedy 6 man tags over the endless ROH scrambles any day. Main events wise both have treasures so there you can pick and choose but top to bottom AJPW wins hands down.

 

*side note while thinking about this did anyone else really cringe when Gabe doing commentary as Jimmy Bower would do the BACKDROP DANGEROUS! deal when guys like BJ Whitmer would hit a Japan popular move off the top rope? Wow even then as a young teen that knew next to nothing about "smarky" stuff I found this to be tryhard as hell.

I agree totally. And the commentary up until 2005 was pretty terrible overall. There is way too much talking during the matches.

 

 

I don't feel the commentary has ever been very good in RoH. I know people despised him but I actually liked when Prazak and Hodgewood were doing the HDNet show. There was something that I just enjoyed about Hodgewood's commentary.

[G. Badger]

 

 

For me as well I'm a big ROH fan from 2002-2008 even when the quality dropped but AJPW in the 90's still holds up and the had the far better undercard workers which in ROH even at it's best was spotty. And I'll take Baba comedy 6 man tags over the endless ROH scrambles any day. Main events wise both have treasures so there you can pick and choose but top to bottom AJPW wins hands down.

 

*side note while thinking about this did anyone else really cringe when Gabe doing commentary as Jimmy Bower would do the BACKDROP DANGEROUS! deal when guys like BJ Whitmer would hit a Japan popular move off the top rope? Wow even then as a young teen that knew next to nothing about "smarky" stuff I found this to be tryhard as hell.

 

I agree totally. And the commentary up until 2005 was pretty terrible overall. There is way too much talking during the matches.

I don't feel the commentary has ever been very good in RoH. I know people despised him but I actually liked when Prazak and Hodgewood were doing the HDNet show. There was something that I just enjoyed about Hodgewood's commentary.

Haha! True! The really early stuff I have to mute or turn down to right before silent because it takes me out of the match. It's like watching wrestling while listening to commercial for an auto dealership.

 

Also, in general, I felt ROH was trying to fit into whatever Japanese promotion Gabe had a deal with at the time. Zero-One early on until NOAH for the main event stuff and Dragon Gate especially during the multi-man faction stuff. I never thought they were imitating AJPW just because the presence, style, and pace was different. NOAH and Dragon Gate though...hell yes!

[Mad Dog]

Weren't they kind of trying to go for that Triple Crown idea when Danielson had the World Title, the FIP Title and the Pure Title?

 

I guess trying to fit into NOAH would be trying to be All Japan.

[G. Badger]

Weren't they kind of trying to go for that Triple Crown idea when Danielson had the World Title, the FIP Title and the Pure Title?

 

I guess trying to fit into NOAH would be trying to be All Japan.

Yeah, by 2006 NOAH style or Ark Style as I've seen it called was pretty distinct from the stories and layered Kings Road of AJ. That nuanced story and layers of meaning of AJ was never really present in ROH. Perhaps Joe vs Kobashi is the one exception but even then, it's a novelty fantasy. Otherwise, it was the "I'm tougher, I've got a more dangerous move" NOAH style.

 

I think it's really the case where people may want to go back and look at the top 4 or 5 guys per year and see where their influences were...to see if there was a puro company they could have fit into.

[Mad Dog]

I never found Gabe to be a particularly good booker. I think he stumbled into a couple of good angles over the years but I feel like more often than not his ideas tended to fail on some level. The thing I still hate about RoH is that they take that hot up and comer and then job him about 3 times too many and wait about a year too long before finally pulling the trigger on them. I don't know what it is with RoH and doing that but it's been a common theme between several bookers now.

 

I do eventually want to revisit the Adam Pearce era. There were some interesting ideas in there but I feel like he never got a fair chance from the fans.

[Riderman Hongo]

From looking at it from the outside. Gabe is looked at like Paul.

 

Whether or not that is Fair or not.

 

Gabe had such better workers on top than Paul did. He was more able to book better matches.

[Sean Liska]

I thought Gabe was awesome as a booker from 04-08 which makes me wonder about the past 10 years and if Heyman secretly had great influence on peak ROH creative because I don't know how that Gabe is the same one who hasn't been able to capture any buzz with his current promotion for so long. Or maybe Gabe is writing Gargano-Ciampa and he has been hamstrung by circumstances with WWN.

[Riderman Hongo]

I thought Gabe was awesome as a booker from 04-08 which makes me wonder about the past 10 years and if Heyman secretly had great influence on peak ROH creative because I don't know how that Gabe is the same one who hasn't been able to capture any buzz with his current promotion for so long. Or maybe Gabe is writing Gargano-Ciampa and he has been hamstrung by circumstances with WWN.

Gabe worked under Paul is ECW from what I heard.

Can you confirm this?

[G. Badger]

I'm on the fence with Gabe booking. At the time, I thought it was pretty great but, by the end it just got a little too busy.

 

One grudge is that I thought Danielson should have gone over Nigel at the one PPV. The World title reign & mythos was treated sacrosanct and whomever was the 2 time champion would be like the greatest of all time. They sorta didn't mention Xavier and Gibson or even Homicide too much though. Also Everyone was waiting for some one like Dragon, KENTA, Aries etc. to dethrone Nigel. I think Gabe got caught up too much with legacy and it bogged him down. ROH was AJPW like in that regard. Gabe was Baba-like and waited to long to pull the trigger.

 

Then, was it Pearce that put the belt on Jerry Lynn?