Is TNA the worst wrestling promotion in history?

[El-P]

On 5/9/2018 at 2:06 AM, SomethingSavage said:

There's that pitiful main event run with Foley.

You weren't kidding. His week to week character was more annoying than anything else outside of a few Cactusy moments, and in the ring Foley looked washed up beyond belief for a guy his age (wonder why....). 

Yeah, first half of 2009 is mostly a complete waste of time. Very few things to enjoy really. The worst talent/product ratio since Russo's WCW.

[SomethingSavage]

I need to know how the one-on-one Foley versus Angle match holds up, because (don't you judge me) I actually remember digging it way back at the time.

Part of that might have been just the sheer novelty of seeing the character Kurt Angle against the character Mick Foley - although the parts they were playing by then were radically different & far removed from their WWF heydays.

But yeah. TNA 2009 is terrible, pretty much up until you get small glimmers of hope from Desmond Wolfe's debut and AJ's awesome little title reign. People remember the fourth Joe/Daniels triple threat fondly (and rightfully so), but I actually enjoyed the shit out of the Daniels one-on-one match a lot as well. A bit long, but worth a watch for sure.

 

[Alucard]

I'm a huge mark for the Foley/Nash brawl at Hard Justice. Just two old dudes hitting each other and bleeding all over the place, total fun. Also dug those last few months of 09, Hamada was tearing it up in the knockouts division with some hidden gem little matchups.

[SomethingSavage]

I don't even recall the Nash/Foley match, but I may try & seek that out.

I remember the buildup getting some talk around the time though. Nash was Big Money Kev, deliberately leaning hard into his "lazy" label, and basically calling Foley a mark for crippling himself instead of just taking the money & doing as little as possible.

Fun character stuff, which Nash almost always seemed to deliver in TNA, oddly enough.

[Alucard]

54 minutes ago, SomethingSavage said:

I don't even recall the Nash/Foley match, but I may try & seek that out.

I remember the buildup getting some talk around the time though. Nash was Big Money Kev, deliberately leaning hard into his "lazy" label, and basically calling Foley a mark for crippling himself instead of just taking the money & doing as little as possible.

Fun character stuff, which Nash almost always seemed to deliver in TNA, oddly enough.

Absolutely loved that build too. They had a contract signing segment for the match, where Foley runs off the ropes and puts himself through the table leaving Nash bewildered...was hilarious. One of my favorite memories watching that with my dad, his reaction being similar to Nash's.

[SomethingSavage]

Just watched the contract signing & the Hard Justice match. The segment started strong with Nash bragging & boasting, then kind of went sideways for a bit, before it ended with nutty Foley. It was a bit weird and not their best, but it did well to define the differences in their character. I kinda dug it.

The brawl exceeded expectations. You were right about that. Mick throws himself into everything full-on and flings his body with reckless abandon - he's not 97/98 Foley good, but he ain't late 99 Foley bad either.

Mick launches himself backwards against the guardrail, which looks brutal. And the elbow drop off the apron (countered with a steel chair!) that splits Foley's eyebrow is another sick crash landing. Mick really goes above & beyond (especially for this stage of his career) to make Nash look & function like an intimidating, walking, talking, romping, stomping giant.

And Nash steps it up a notch. There's an intensity behind his slow, methodical blows that I really dig here - partly because they're accompanied by some trrrreeeemendous facial expressions. I'm not saying he's Regal or anything, but Nash is never even talked about in that conversation, and he's fantastic with the facial expressions here. He looks legitimately frightening at times.

It's a fucking shame - and somehow appropriate for 2009 TNA - that the finish is so weak & super lame. I hated it. Just awful, flat, and disconnected from everything their conflict was about. I hated that finish.

But the match itself is still totally worth watching. It's a spirited sprint of a brawl from two guys past their "best by" date. I love when something like this can jump up out of nowhere and pleasantly surprise you.

[Alucard]

Glad you also enjoyed it! Agreed of course on that finish and the camera almost missing it at that, but a great battle leading up to it. Both guys best work in TNA I think and wish they had more stuff like it. I love late era Nash, thought he also delivered big in the ladder match with HHH in 2011.

[El-P]

Well, Slammiversary 09 ended up quite the fun show despite a tepid build. Mostly good/fun stuff, only Sting vs Matt Morgan and Angelina Love vs Tara really weren't much of anything. Morgan is a mystery, he got everything you'd want for a pro-wrestler, yet never seem to put it together. Something just doesn't click above the "ok" level. Plus Sting really has looked pretty washed up since day one in TNA. I know he was 50, but I have no idea where the good rep from his stint there comes. As far as Tara goes, I have no idea what the rep is on her, as I've seen nothing before, but she did not impress me thus far. I guess being trained solely by WWE in the 00's, when Lita & Trish Stratus ruled the world isn't exactly the best basis. She sure can bitchslap a stiff one though. Jury's out.

The two King of the Mountain matches were really fun, the X-division being the most spectacular and the heavyweight one being exactly the kind of clusterfuck you'd expect, with people killing themselves in ridiculous ways. First time Mick Foley looked useful since he showed up in TNA too, as he did drop a stupid elbow from the top of the penalty box. Angle with hair & beard (almost) is quite a different sight. The finish was a "too clever for its own good" Russo swerve, but apart from this, yeah, fun car crash stuff.

Speaking of car crash, the most notable (and fun) match to me was Raven vs Daffney vs Abyss & Taylor Wilde in a Monster's Ball match. It warmed the vampire fan in me. Fat Raven still could go, which was nice to see. Dr. Stevie is yet another fun Richards incarnation. And damn if Taylor Wilde is not a trooper, that girl has been the fire of the women's division since Gail Kim left. Way underrated. As far as Daffney goes, well, she ended up through a table, then took a bump into the tacks, so what's not to love ? Ozaki would approve. The right team won too.

Team 3D vs Beer Money was really good and slowly build into a hot finish. I can't stress enough how much Team 3D were valuable to TNA, they just did everything *right*. 

Last appearance for Shane Douglas on PPV I guess. He didn't look too bad for a 45 years old banged up former junkie (I think this came after he painfully dropped the habit. Maybe not, not so sure, but if anyone wonders, just listen to his interview on Austin's podcast, it's fascinating and terrifying). Well, he still had the old-school psychology and mic ability...

Easily the best PPV since the very first one of the year, and probably the first enjoyable show top to bottom they produced that year, which has been pretty pathetic in term of booking, with disastrous results on the TV and PPV's. Seven years after they debuted, and after a strong 2008, 2009 looks like the time when TNA really totally fell into the Russo trap of trying to be WWE-lite, with only older WCW/WWF guys on top and a women division that regressed badly after being on fire for nearly two years. The ratings may have gone up (Foley maybe ?), but the product had lost whatever was left of the uniqueness of TNA. When you think the best idea Dixie came up then was to reunite the all-time disastrous team of WCW 2000... What a waste of talent this company was.

(I can't believe I went through seven years of TNA in the last three years and three months...)

[SomethingSavage]

Morgan's a guy I've talked about ad nauseum, and you're right. He never really figured out how to function as a proper giant. That, combined with his lanky frame, did him no favors. He's a nice and positive guy in real life though, so there's that.

Morgan's best match, from what I recall, was against Kurt Angle. It was a busy, fast-paced deal. But it was still pretty good by the Blueprint's standards. The story and the buildup - with Morgan sort of being Evolution's Batista to the Main Event Mafia - was solid stuff for TNA at that time, too.

As far as Sting goes, I don't know. Did his TNA run ever really have any great rep? If so, that's news to me. I've never felt like he was a ring general of any kind, but he can cook up decent chemistry with the right opponents.

I dug the BFG match with Jarrett. The two PPV matches with Styles weren't extraordinary or anything, but I enjoyed them for what they were. I remember one being particularly better than the other, but I can't recall which was which. I know Sting was surprisingly fun playing the bully heel to AJ in one of them though. He had a few good matches with Angle also. And the BFG 2011 bout with Hogan is sheer spectacle, but it's glorious fun & everything it needed to be in that moment. Hardly a match, but pitch perfect for that story in front of that audience on that night. But his all-time performance was probably at BFG against Joe.

Overall, I think it's fair to call his run there underwhelming. But I'm not exactly disappointed, if that makes any sense. I appreciate what he was able to do both for them and with his character at times, and it's not like WWE would have put him to great use in that decade anyway. I'm fairly sure of that.

Shane went through his oxycontin addiction sometime during his TNA run, so you may be right on the timing of that. He also covers it in pretty good detail on his YouShoot release with Sean Oliver. I've mentioned it before, but his story is one that hits close to home with me. Along with Del Wilkes, I think it's one of the absolute best episodes of Austin's podcast. I know that's purely personal preference, but it's a subject I relate to and l always enjoy hearing about after it's turned out well.

[Mrzfn]

I thought Sting got a lot better on the mic during his TNA run. That's kind of a low bar since he was never great in WCW but it could contribute to a more positive rep?

[griff]

On 8/22/2018 at 8:00 PM, Mrzfn said:

I thought Sting got a lot better on the mic during his TNA run. That's kind of a low bar since he was never great in WCW but it could contribute to a more positive rep?

I totally agree. His character, for better or worse, was more rounded in TNA. 

[El-P]

On 8/5/2018 at 10:40 PM, SomethingSavage said:

I need to know how the one-on-one Foley versus Angle match holds up, because (don't you judge me) I actually remember digging it way back at the time.

Part of that might have been just the sheer novelty of seeing the character Kurt Angle against the character Mick Foley - although the parts they were playing by then were radically different & far removed from their WWF heydays.

To me it was "ok", at best. Foley was washed up. Angle looked like Flair in 90 figuring out how to work around JYD. Foley still took two stupid bumps because I guess he could still do that, but it was a nothing main event, like every Foley match in TNA save for KOTM (which had all other guys to carry the load). AJ Styles vs Kevin Nash was better. Samoa Joe vs Sting was better. To have such a nondescript match against Angle (whose became a better worker in TNA to me) in 2009 says a whole lot. 

The highlight of this show was easily Jenna Morasca vs Sharmell. Now, that was a whole new level of so-awful-it's-great. Sharmell was just your average non-worker WWE Diva level bad (which I guess is why Tara/Victoria was considered a good worker in that environment, because her work screams 00's WWE in a bad way thus far), but when Jenna got on offense, holy shit ! This guy in the first row actually facepalming was pretty funny. She could not even throw a proper slap ! She could show dat ass though, her entrance and cover were the highlights of the match. She was so inept (I guess not trained one bit) that Amazing Kong just squashed her at the end instead of going for any of her usual big spots, Jenna would probably have killed herself taking the powerbomb. Awesome, awesome bad match.

[El-P]

For anyone interested in the subject, the Starrcast Total Nonsport Jarrett show was excellent. Tons of cool and funny stories, especially once the guests (Scott Steiner out of character and really chill, Karen who still looks stunning, Gail Kim & Velvet Sky who haven't aged a bit BTW) show up. Interesting that the really fun times for them was from 2002 to 2009, it seems Dixie (who got punted several time pretty bad, including Steiner calling her a douchebag, which was really funny as it was the first mention of her on the show, Karen would pile on later on) taking control and the arrival of Hogan really is what fucked the party for them. Jarrett calls the later years a "cesspool", which is quite a strong choice of words. Dave Penzer saying he had the best time of his life in TNA was interesting considering he was there in the hottest days of WCW (I guess it was much less stressful to work in TNA). Gail Kim also said that 2007/2008 were the favorite years of her career. Her and Velvet made sure to point out TNA in 2007 is where the real "revolution" began (Gail also said she would love to see women main event Mania, but only if it was because of talent and not for marketing/PR reasons), which was nice to hear; Jarrett put the girls over a whole lot for drawing the best ratings and selling tons of merch, which Don West confirmed. Oh, and West also told some excellent stories, including a great Kurt Angle one. Really cool to hear a positive spin on those TNA years. Jeff/Karen make quite a great couple too.

[Loss]

I've noticed that for whatever it's worth, the stars created in TNA seem to be much better all-around characters and better promos than the WWE guys who came up at the same time. EC3. Nick Aldis. Bobby Roode. James Storm.

[El-P]

No ridiculous micromanagement, I would guess. The opportunity to actually work with some freedom to develop your game by yourself.

About the Starrcast show another highlight was Scott Steiner explaining where the infamous math promo came from.

[fakeplastictrees]

TNA not being WWE was its biggest strength, unfortunately TNA saw it as its biggest weakness.

[SomethingSavage]

It sucks to hear how morale was so down during the Hogan years. I mean, yeah. 2010 was the shits. But it wasn't really much worse than the 2009 that came before it. And then 2011/12 under Hogan & Bischoff was the absolute peak of their TV.

I get Gail taking more pride in basically building the foundation for the Knockouts division from the ground up - and of course the first awesome series with Kong - but she was very much an essential part of the division throughout Hulk's time there.

Aries was made. Roode and Storm were never used better. Bully Ray was almost totally reinvented. Aldis was a slow & steady pet project. The Jeff and Karen 'ship were practically proto Miz & Maryse. Daniels & Kaz were a highlight and featured comedic heels, very much in the Edge and Christian early 2000s role. And on & on. It's just a shame that their product was finally displaying some consistent quality, yet everyone there seems to shit on that period.

The number of "bosses" and the lack of structure has to account for some of that, I think.

[El-P]

This is where you strictly are talking from the outside, as a fan, because if you watch the show, you'll get why the first years were the most fun and exciting to them (it often is, in everything, really).

First off, TNA was Jeff's baby until July of 2009, after that it became a job. You really get why it was so important to Gail to finally get a woman's division and why it was so important for Velvet and the other girls to be called up from the indie scene when they created the whole Knockouts division, why in the end this was the most exciting time for them (the fact they pretty much all got along too). They really don't say much of anything about post-09, apart from shitting on Dixie from time to time (gotta love Karen "Isn't she the same person who forgot to re-sign AJ Styles ?"). I don't think Penzer was around for that long after Hogan came in, was he ? West wasn't announcing anymore. Dutch, who was so instrumental pushing the women, was gone. It's really about the inside perspective here, and it's really interesting and fun to hear, despite what you may think about the actual product (Jarrett loved the MEM & Foley stuff because it's when the ratings really went up and they were getting the sense of accomplishing something; as a watcher I think most of it was pretty terrible).

Forgot, Conrad dropped by and asked the crowd if they would listen to a Jarrett podcast. Well, whatever you think of the guy, he's a hustler for sure and he did one hell of a job with this Starrcast stuff.

[Tim Evans]

Penzer was around off and on till last year.

[TonyPulis'Cap]

On 9/13/2018 at 9:30 AM, El-P said:

You really get why it was so important to Gail to finally get a woman's division and why it was so important for Velvet and the other girls to be called up from the indie scene when they created the whole Knockouts division, why in the end this was the most exciting time for them (the fact they pretty much all got along too).

I think this is a great point, and one of the appeals of the early Knockouts division - TNA were hiring women from the indies that in 2007/08 would never get hired by the WWE. Now with things like NXT and the Mae Young Classic, women from the indie scene and who don't fit what was seen as the prototype 'Diva' look can get signed and thrive in the WWE, but back at that time was when you still had the Johnny Ace hiring models from the swimsuit catalogue model. The Knockouts all looked different, and as I say they gave chances to people that the WWE were turning their nose up. For someone like Velvet Sky, it's no surprise how much she values this time, given I think she actually applied for one of the Diva Search contests and got fairly close to appearing in the TV part, but her indie 'bad habits' and the fact she had some wrestling training/background probably counted against her in their eyes at the time. 

[TonyPulis'Cap]

On 9/13/2018 at 1:02 AM, fakeplastictrees said:

TNA not being WWE was its biggest strength, unfortunately TNA saw it as its biggest weakness.

This x 1000. Great line. Feel like quite a few companies in the wrestling business have suffered from trying to be WWE lite, when they'd do better to do their own thing. 

[El-P]

43 minutes ago, TonyPulis'Cap said:

This x 1000. Great line. Feel like quite a few companies in the wrestling business have suffered from trying to be WWE lite, when they'd do better to do their own thing. 

There was a recent interview with Shane Douglas, when he tells this anecdote of Dixie asking him for advices about the company. He tells her TNA should be an alternative to WWE like ECW was back in the days, not try to copy them but build their own audience by doing something different. As to illustrate what he said, just at this time the crowd was doing an ECW chant. But the answer Dixie gave him was "Why would we want to be like ECW, they failed." This is the story of TNA.

(of course, the worst irony of all is that Dixie saw fit to keep Russo around until he actually cost them their TV deal, and also hire the Bischoff/Hogan team. Because WCW didn't fail, I guess.)

[El-P]

On 8/6/2018 at 3:03 AM, SomethingSavage said:

Just watched the contract signing & the Hard Justice match. The segment started strong with Nash bragging & boasting, then kind of went sideways for a bit, before it ended with nutty Foley. It was a bit weird and not their best, but it did well to define the differences in their character. I kinda dug it.

The brawl exceeded expectations. You were right about that. Mick throws himself into everything full-on and flings his body with reckless abandon - he's not 97/98 Foley good, but he ain't late 99 Foley bad either.

Mick launches himself backwards against the guardrail, which looks brutal. And the elbow drop off the apron (countered with a steel chair!) that splits Foley's eyebrow is another sick crash landing. Mick really goes above & beyond (especially for this stage of his career) to make Nash look & function like an intimidating, walking, talking, romping, stomping giant.

And Nash steps it up a notch. There's an intensity behind his slow, methodical blows that I really dig here - partly because they're accompanied by some trrrreeeemendous facial expressions. I'm not saying he's Regal or anything, but Nash is never even talked about in that conversation, and he's fantastic with the facial expressions here. He looks legitimately frightening at times.

It's a fucking shame - and somehow appropriate for 2009 TNA - that the finish is so weak & super lame. I hated it. Just awful, flat, and disconnected from everything their conflict was about. I hated that finish.

But the match itself is still totally worth watching. It's a spirited sprint of a brawl from two guys past their "best by" date. I love when something like this can jump up out of nowhere and pleasantly surprise you.

Enjoyed it too. Nash is ridiculously underrated at this point. I've always been a fan, but his TNA stint adds some stuff to his body of work as an old-guy-worker. This was clearly one bright spot of his. Like you said, his facials are excellent (and believable). Foley still looked mostly broken down, and the fact he got to bleed like a pig from what looked like a hardway cut really helped the match I think. Bad finish apart, this was quite the decent old mofos brawl, with double juice and all (and yes, I'm from the old vampire school of blood = good).

That being said, there was a very sad and embarrassing spot on the PPV, which was Russo working his magic with the women. Dutch Mantell, who has been credited as the architect behind the Knockout division, had been fired for what, a month at most by this time ? Well, Russo had the women's title defended in a mixed tag match. With "babyface" Cody Deaner acting like a total white trash sexual offender, spanking Velvet until her ass got red, then forcing himself on her several times, then forcing himself on Love, the forcing himself on Rayne, then winning the match and taking off with the women's title. Yep. We went from Gail Kim vs Awesome Kong to this in a matter of two years and a half. Well, of one month, really, since although there had been some bullshit before, the fact this disgrace happened just after Dutch was fired just tells you everything you need to know. Yep, Vince Russo.

[El-P]

And so, Dixie Carter's first official appearance on TNA TV also happens a month or so after she fired Dutch and took over entire power of the company from Jarrett, with Russo alone at the helm. Crazy. A few weeks later, Corny would be fired. Yeah, this is really the debut of the "stupid era" that would just trickle down to the catastrophy that has been TNA in the 00's, until the company finally got rid of her and got a fresh start with those Canadians fellow.

[El-P]

Mick Foley having an IWA Japan deathmatch on PPV in 2009 against Abyss is quite the sight to see. The fact Daffney & Stevie Richards took the two sickest bumps in the match says a lot about how far Foley was gone by then. Still without a doubt Foley's best match in TNA (faint praise, but it was a cool, sick match).