For entertainment...

[KrisZ]

Brody would've always had a home in Texas working with Fritz, it was always where he went between tours of Japan and he was the booker/producer for some of 1987.

 

Let's look at what groups was going at the time he died and his past relationships with them.

 

Pacific Northwest - Brody never worked there IIRC and if he did it was spot shows.

 

AWA - Worked there in 1984 & 1986 and had a shaky relationship with Verne at the end of his 86 run.

 

World Class - Noted above

 

Central States - Had a good relationship with Bob Geigel, definitely could work shows for them.

 

Memphis - Worked there in 1985 no-showed and never came back.

 

Continental - Never worked this area but at the time of his death it was about to go under.

 

JCP/NWA - Dusty never brought Brody in as booker anywhere after his run in Florida in 1982 so who knows. 1989 was the committee of bookers with Flair being the main guy so that's another who knows. Ole had a good relationship with Brody as he brought him to Georgia in 1981 & 1983 and with Hansen coming in there in 1990 it probably would've happened then.

 

USA (Knoxville) - Ron Fuller might have brought him in for a shot or two who knows.

 

Georgia indies (Deep South & Southern Championship) - Brody worked regularly with any group Pedicino & Crusher Blackwell were part of so he definitely would've still had work here.

 

WWF - Brody never came back to work here after his run in 76-77 and with the direction they were heading in at this time, wouldn't have fit either.

 

Regarding Japan, I could see Brody definitely staying in AJPW throughout the end of the 80's and either doing one of two things going with Tenryu to SWS or a thin possibility of even starting his own indy.

[Al]

Considering ECW used Stan Hansen, Abdullah the Butcher, The Sheik, Kevin Sullivan, Terry Funk, Eddie Gilbert, the Headhunters, etc. in 1993-94, I think Bruiser Brody definately would've at least done spot shows there.

[Bix]

Central States - Had a good relationship with Bob Geigel, definitely could work shows for them.

And the territory (mostly) died before Brody did

[Loss]

Ole had a good relationship with Brody as he brought him to Georgia in 1981 & 1983 and with Hansen coming in there in 1990 it probably would've happened then.

The Black Scorpion, perhaps?

[KrisZ]

Central States - Had a good relationship with Bob Geigel, definitely could work shows for them.

And the territory (mostly) died before Brody did

 

Hence he could've always been brought in as a ringer to pop a house if they wanted.

 

RE: Black Scorpion, as Flair said on the Horsemen DVD who knows what Ole was on regarding that angle so I won't even try to speculate on that.

[gordi]

I can back up Gordi on Brody getting a #1 spot. An edition of "WRESTLING SUPERSTARS" which I think was one of PWI's quarterly mags, put out a top 50 list in one of their '86 editions and ranked him #1. An issue of Wrestling 86 contains an interview with Brody where that fact is brought up.

 

 

Thank you. Mike. I'm glad I'm not the only one who remembers that!

 

I think this might be the one.

[MikeCampbell]

Nope that's not the one. According to the interview, it's a top 100 list.

[JHawk]

I think that is the right issue, as they did the same thing in 1988 and made it a point to mention that Brody, having never been World Champion, was #1 two years prior.

[gordi]

I think that is the right issue, as they did the same thing in 1988 and made it a point to mention that Brody, having never been World Champion, was #1 two years prior.

 

 

This is just a guess, but maybe in one issue they did a top 100 list , then followed up with an on-depth look at the top 20?

 

I'm going to hunt this down on eBay, I think.

[Loss]

PWI had their 100th issue in 1987 and they did some type of precursor to the PWI 500 there where they ranked guys. Maybe that's what you're thinking of. Pretty sure it was the 9/87 issue, but can't confirm.

[Bix]

 

Central States - Had a good relationship with Bob Geigel, definitely could work shows for them.

And the territory (mostly) died before Brody did

 

Hence he could've always been brought in as a ringer to pop a house if they wanted.

Eh, they drew 300 for Bulldogs-R&R...

 

How did the territory exist on its own after Crockett bought out Geigel, anyway? Did he buy it back?

[KrisZ]

 

 

Central States - Had a good relationship with Bob Geigel, definitely could work shows for them.

And the territory (mostly) died before Brody did

 

Hence he could've always been brought in as a ringer to pop a house if they wanted.

Eh, they drew 300 for Bulldogs-R&R...

 

How did the territory exist on its own after Crockett bought out Geigel, anyway? Did he buy it back?

 

Yeah but Bulldogs/R&R weren't established names in the territory perse either although that was a pretty loaded card. Brody was a top guy in the state of Missouri for a while and drew well when he was there often.

 

I think that Geigel bought it back and Mike George was the booker.

[Bix]

 

 

 

Central States - Had a good relationship with Bob Geigel, definitely could work shows for them.

And the territory (mostly) died before Brody did

 

Hence he could've always been brought in as a ringer to pop a house if they wanted.

Eh, they drew 300 for Bulldogs-R&R...

 

How did the territory exist on its own after Crockett bought out Geigel, anyway? Did he buy it back?

 

Yeah but Bulldogs/R&R weren't established names in the territory perse either although that was a pretty loaded card. Brody was a top guy in the state of Missouri for a while and drew well when he was there often.

It was 5 years into the WWF expansion (which started in St. Louis) but you're right, as it looked like the WWF drew really oddly in Missouri, from terrible to okay with no real pattern. Interesting to look at...

 

I think that Geigel bought it back and Mike George was the booker.

Any idea what the time frame was? Before or after Turner bought out Crockett?

[KrisZ]

 

 

 

 

Central States - Had a good relationship with Bob Geigel, definitely could work shows for them.

And the territory (mostly) died before Brody did

 

Hence he could've always been brought in as a ringer to pop a house if they wanted.

Eh, they drew 300 for Bulldogs-R&R...

 

How did the territory exist on its own after Crockett bought out Geigel, anyway? Did he buy it back?

 

Yeah but Bulldogs/R&R weren't established names in the territory perse either although that was a pretty loaded card. Brody was a top guy in the state of Missouri for a while and drew well when he was there often.

It was 5 years into the WWF expansion (which started in St. Louis) but you're right, as it looked like the WWF drew really oddly in Missouri, from terrible to okay with no real pattern. Interesting to look at...

 

I think that Geigel bought it back and Mike George was the booker.

Any idea what the time frame was? Before or after Turner bought out Crockett?

 

It was before like early 1988 when they renamed to WWA after Bruiser's version died. George/Masa Chono was the big feud, Steve Ray was there among others.

[jdw]

 

 

 

I don't recall Brody ever getting a #1 spot in PWI. I had most of the 1983-89 issues of their various mags before pitching them after getting the WON.

 

 

Are you calling me a liar, John?

I said I don't recall him ever getting a #1 spot in PWI.

 

They did a weekly Top 10's that one could compile if you got all the mags. Flair had Tiger Wood like runs with the #1 spot, dropping out of it when he'd drop the title for a cup of coffee, then take it back. When they finally moved Hogan ahead of him at some point in the 80s, it was a "big deal" in the PWI family.

 

Brody was barely a blip in the rankings.

 

My thought would be that whatever year you've got Brody at the top of a ranking in the family, that you count up the number of covers Brody appeared on that year and comp it with Luger. Lex, while in Florida, got more PWI run than Brody did. Why? Because stories and covers were done to sell mags. Lex got the "next big thing" push with the belief (and likely results) that it would sell mags. Brody didn't.

 

Why?

 

Most fans around the country in the 80s either didn't give a shit about him or didn't know who he was. He really was a blip on the radar at that point.

 

Again - it's not just Lex getting a bigger mag push. Jerry Lawler was consistently in the mags getting a push.

 

 

John

[gordi]

Nobody is arguing that Brody was the biggest star of the 1980s or that he was on more magazine covers than Lawler (or Hogan or The Road Warriors). I was responding to Al's claim that, as a reader of PWI, he had no idea that Brody was any kind of star. I don't need to prove that Brody was a bigger Apter darling than Lex Luger in order to refute that, so I find it a little odd that you are kind of suggesting that I do so.

 

Why is it so hard for you to admit anything positive at all about Brody, John? It seems like you have a personal vendetta against the man and his legend. I don't get it.

 

If someone claims that Brody was overrated. It's hard to disagree. If someone says that he didn't sell enough... well, he was a monster, but even for a monster he sometimes gave too little in the ring (Though he'd flop around in pain for the Step Over Toe Hold)... If someone wants to claim that he never held up his end of a great match, that's easy enough to dispute. Brody was never in anyone's very best match ever... but he was in a handful of matches that I certainly consider great, and he wasn't dragged kicking and screaming to them, and it wasn't as if the matches were great despite him being involved. It's true that Brody only rarely wrestled to anything approaching his full potential, and it's true that he often went into business for himself... but that doesn't erase the fact that he did have some great matches in his career. He wasn't the greatest brawler or greatest big man ever... but that doesn't mean that Brody flat out sucked in the ring. I think even you can admit that, so I think that there's no need for us to continue arguing about Brody's in-ring abilities.

 

I didn't think that there was any need to argue about Brody's star power, since I'd always believed it was self-evident. You have, however, argued convincingly elsewhere that Brody never truly set a territory's business on fire. I'd still argue that he was a draw... not on Hogan or Road Warrior levels, but a guy who could put some extra asses in the seats. I'm not going to do the needed research to prove it, though... I'm pretty much just taking Meltzer's word for it... so go ahead and tell me I'm wrong about this.

 

I don't see how it's possible to argue that Brody had an awesome look and presence. I don't see how anyone can claim that he didn't know how to get himself over with the crowd. You can argue that Andre was physically larger... or that Pampero Firpo looked like more of a wild man... but Brody still somehow got over as a big, out of control, violent wild man. I guess you can argue that Brody's look and gimmick do nothing for you personally. It's hard to counter that... but it still worked for a lot of people. I'm not the only person who ever enjoyed watching him charge through the crowd swinging his chain.

 

This, however: Trying to argue that he was an unknown quantity? Trying to argue that he was never made out to be a big deal by the mark mags? That's just silly. Again, PWI ranked him #14 on their list of the top 500 wrestlers of the PWI era, and he and Hansen were ranked #7 on the list of Tag Teams. It makes no sense to try and dispute that he was a star in their eyes. What's next? Did Meltzer only put him in the Hall of Fame because he died? Did WWE only make a Brody figure because they felt sorry for Barbara Goodish? Is Blues Bloody from the Exciting Hour video game actually based on Nord the Barbarian? Did Inoki never outbid Baba for Brody's services?

 

I fully agree that Brody was at one time wildly overrated. I don't think that means it's necessary to deny that he was ever anything at all.

[jdw]

Why is it so hard for you to admit anything positive at all about Brody, John?

His furry boots were swank~!

 

 

It seems like you have a personal vendetta against the man and his legend. I don't get it.

I never can figure out why people always toss out "personal" when people are being critical of something.

 

"X has something personal against Y. That's why he's ragging on him."

 

It's far easier to roll that out rather than deal with the criticism.

 

 

He wasn't the greatest brawler or greatest big man ever... but that doesn't mean that Brody flat out sucked in the ring. I think even you can admit that, so I think that there's no need for us to continue arguing about Brody's in-ring abilities.

I've seen a number of matches where Brody flat out sucked in the ring. I think his performance in the Hansen & Brody vs. Steamboat & Youngblood match was nothing less than a selfish, egotistcal embarassment. It's hardly the only one.

 

Did he always suck in the ring? No.

 

 

I didn't think that there was any need to argue about Brody's star power, since I'd always believed it was self-evident. You have, however, argued convincingly elsewhere that Brody never truly set a territory's business on fire.

Well, I almost always point to him doing very good business in St. Louis. And then I point out that once you get past St. Louis, it's hard to find anywhere that he did really bang up business. Solid or par for the course at the best, a strong show here and there, and then it gets hard to find.

 

 

I'd still argue that he was a draw... not on Hogan or Road Warrior levels, but a guy who could put some extra asses in the seats. I'm not going to do the needed research to prove it, though... I'm pretty much just taking Meltzer's word for it... so go ahead and tell me I'm wrong about this.

 

I don't think Dave has every really pointed to where, outside of St. Louis, where Brody moved a ton of tickets.

 

*snip*

 

I'll hit the rest later since I need to run...

 

 

John

[gordi]

Why is it so hard for you to admit anything positive at all about Brody, John?

His furry boots were swank~!

 

 

 

 

 

On that, we fully agree!

 

 

 

I never can figure out why people always toss out "personal" when people are being critical of something.

 

"X has something personal against Y. That's why he's ragging on him."

 

It's far easier to roll that out rather than deal with the criticism.

 

 

 

 

I'm not usually the kind of guy who just throws an accusation like that out for no good reason, or because I want to find an easy way out of the argument. We've both been involved in a couple discussions of other wrestlers elsewhere, and I've always enjoyed the back and forth exchange of ideas... but with Brody discussion in particular, I've generally felt that you tend to immediately dismiss anything positive that anyone has to say about him on any level. That honestly strikes me as more of a personal deal, and I do wonder why you seem to dislike him as a wrestler to that extent.

 

I've seen a number of matches where Brody flat out sucked in the ring.

As have I. He was wildly inconsistent and seemed to only really go when he was in the mood to. Kind of like Randy Moss, in a sense... I've never been a Moss fan at all, for precisely that reason. I don't know why it bugs me less that Brody has those tendencies. Maybe because pro wrestling is supposed to be about showmanship and self-promotion more than pro football is.

[jdw]

Let's see... where were we...

 

I don't see how it's possible to argue that Brody had an awesome look and presence.

I assume you jdw'd that and meant "didn't".

 

Brody had a pre-Taker cartoonish look and presence. I guess if Taker was "awesome" in those areas, perhaps Brody was. I never sported wood over Taker's gimmick, though I'm willing to admit it was a good one for him.

 

 

I don't see how anyone can claim that he didn't know how to get himself over with the crowd.

So did Hogan. Vastly better. That's one of the problems with the "gets oneself over with the crowd" concept. People want to apply it to the wrestlers they want to pimp as great workers, but when you see Hogan over there to the side waving "What about me, Brutha?" they just turn away and pretend not to notice.

 

 

You can argue that Andre was physically larger... or that Pampero Firpo looked like more of a wild man... but Brody still somehow got over as a big, out of control, violent wild man.

Eh. I'm not sold either of those guys were great workers. And that's from someone who's enjoyed several Andre matches over the years, even when he was shot.

 

I guess you can argue that Brody's look and gimmick do nothing for you personally. It's hard to counter that... but it still worked for a lot of people. I'm not the only person who ever enjoyed watching him charge through the crowd swinging his chain.

Yep. Much like the Hulkster worked for even more people.

 

 

This, however: Trying to argue that he was an unknown quantity? Trying to argue that he was never made out to be a big deal by the mark mags? That's just silly. Again, PWI ranked him #14 on their list of the top 500 wrestlers of the PWI era, and he and Hansen were ranked #7 on the list of Tag Teams. It makes no sense to try and dispute that he was a star in their eyes.

PWI does goofy things. It always has. I think being dead helped Brody there. After all, he rated two spots ahead of his better partner.

 

If one actually read PWI and their sister mags back in the 1983-88 time frame, Brody really didn't get much of a push on a weekly and monthly basis. I've mentioned his push as an opponent of Flair's as being par for the course for Flair Challengers in the era. Many challengers got far more run. Ones that got less would be the Wendel Cooleys of the world. Guys like Kerry Von Erich got vastly more, even if we limit it to just being opposite Flair.

 

 

What's next? Did Meltzer only put him in the Hall of Fame because he died?

Brody's death didn't come up in the conversation when we hit Brody. It was little more than:

 

DM: "Yes."

 

DM: *flips to the next page of the Gong Wrestler 1000*

 

Of course Dave is Brody's biggest fan this side of Larry M. It's like getting unbiased analysis of Kawada out of me.

 

 

Did WWE only make a Brody figure because they felt sorry for Barbara Goodish?

The WWE has made a lot of Figures.

 

 

Is Blues Bloody from the Exciting Hour video game actually based on Nord the Barbarian?

Brody in the various video games is Brody.

 

Then again, I have several video games from Japan that have Davey Boy Smith in them. I stipulate that Brody was a far bigger star in Japan than Davey. But I wouldn't cite being in a video game as meaning a great deal.

 

 

Did Inoki never outbid Baba for Brody's services?

Brody left All Japan because Choshu's Army and then the Road Warriors showed up in All Japan in early 1985. He saw the handwriting on the wall and jumped.

 

Only a mark would buy that Brody jumped just because Inoki threw a wad of cash at him. Even Dave back in the day didn't write it up like that.

 

 

I fully agree that Brody was at one time wildly overrated. I don't think that means it's necessary to deny that he was ever anything at all.

I dont' think I've ever said he was "nothing". Simply that he was wildly overrated, and in some circles still is.

 

Over time that will change. Brody Fanboys were once the majority among hardcores. That isn't the case anymore, though there still remain plenty. In another 10 years they'll be few.

 

 

John

[jdw]

I'm not usually the kind of guy who just throws an accusation like that out for no good reason, or because I want to find an easy way out of the argument. We've both been involved in a couple discussions of other wrestlers elsewhere, and I've always enjoyed the back and forth exchange of ideas... but with Brody discussion in particular, I've generally felt that you tend to immediately dismiss anything positive that anyone has to say about him on any level. That honestly strikes me as more of a personal deal, and I do wonder why you seem to dislike him as a wrestler to that extent.

I don't think you read very carefully.

 

Gordi: "You say that Brody never drew anywhere!"

 

jdw: "Uh... I've always pointed to him drawing very well in St. Louis, and being a decent through not earth shattering draw in Japan."

 

Gordi: "You dismiss every positive he had!"

 

jdw: "Er..." *looks back at what I wrote* "Er..."

 

 

I don't think Brody Fans slow down to read what I'm saying. They quickly get defensive at criticism.

 

John

[Loss]

I kinda like it when Brody occupies your attention, because it gives Flair a bit of a break.

 

[jdw]

Whenever I turn my attention to 1980s Crockett, Flair will likely annoy the fuck out of me.

 

 

John

[JHawk]

To say Brody wasn't a draw is insane in my opinion. I was nine years old when Brody died, and living in Ohio we got a steady diet of WWF and (on a clear day) we might get World Wide Wrestling with the rabbit ears. I never saw Brody wrestle when he was alive. But I knew who he was, and I knew of his kayfabe reputation.

 

If I knew about him as a nine year old mark, he must have drawn pretty well, because you simply didn't hear about guys back then without the Aptermags, and the Aptermags didn't exactly focus on lifetime midcarders in those days.

[Loss]

Sure they did.

 

Anyway, I don't want to take away from the Brody debate, but I think if we're going to debate his drawing power, we should at least bring some attendance figures into it or probably just not do it.

[Bix]

Are there attendance figures for the Brody-Bruno series? Graham's site doesn't have any.