Dark Side of the Ring

[El-P]

On 6/17/2019 at 6:42 PM, C.S. said:

Episode 4 of The Wrestlers was a pretty compelling defense of the infamous "Deathmatch."

I came off completely the opposite. And I'm an old FMW fan and loved Onita (past tense only because I don't watch it anymore, but really was a huge fan). But there's a HUGE difference between what Onita used to do and what CZW and Freedom of Big Japan are doing now. I thought Onita was the best thing on the doc (he aged kinda gracefully too and the setting was EXACTLY where you'd picture Onita to be), although you could feel the old carny bullshit about "I was ready to die". Fuck yeah, sure, he wanted to have sex with a zillion women instead I'm sure. Anyway, Onita's style was based on selling and teasing a whole lot more than doing a hundred insane bumps into glass and shit like this. Plus, he packed stadiums and made himself a shitload of money. With no TV. And worked the Tokyo Dome in NJ shows. And got elected to the Diet ! What are these indy sickos accomplishing apart from killing themselves and destroying their bodies and becoming physically repulsive and unhealthy with their scarred up bodies (and before some dweeb goes all #bodyshaming on me, sorry people, I find Jun Kasai's body to be repulsive) ? Mick Foley did some really, really stupid shit, and he's paying for it now, but he also made himself and his family quite a living, at least.

I dunno, to me I stopped caring about the style exactly when CZW got on the scene in the early 00's and fucked up things for Big Japan, which was developing the crazy-style-to-be with guys like Honma, who thankfully quit. I don't see the point of bump a hundred times in glass walls and mouse traps and pouring salt on the wounds. Do I still enjoy a crazy-ass garbage brawl with some sick spots once in a while ? Sure. Emphasis on "once in a while". But this to me is unnecessary bullshit.

Most amazing scene to me : Kasai's wife lovingly preparing boards with fucking *saws* for her husband to bump onto. Looked like an extract from the horror movie Audition.

I don't want to be that guy, but it actually made me think very strongly about Pierre Bourdieu's Society of Spectacle where he refers to how entertainment only conditions people to violence so they forget the actual social violence they have to endure everyday and don't go into resistance and fight against it and basically comply to the capitalistic world. Of course it's true of all pro-wrestling, really, but it really stroke a nerve here, especially when Kasai said they hoped this would give people the will to work harder the next day at work or school. Yeah...

[Blehschmidt]

I'm with El-P on this one. FMW and ECW were one thing. ECW was mostly just tables, chairs, and shit the audience brought them. The only time it ever really got out of hand was the Funk/Sabu barbed wire match, and even then it was once. Like El-P stated above, FMW was supposedly all of this violent shit, but it was really a whole lot of selling and teasing the violent shit, and then you got a couple of bumps out of it and it was enough to send the people home happy.

Now, it's just too much. Bump after bump into stupider and stupider shit for little to no money and virtually zero chance at ever making it to the big dance.

It sucks too, because some of the guys are actually fairly decent in the ring and if they'd just try something else could potentially succeed. I've worked a bunch of shows with Matt Tremont, and gotten to know him a little bit. He is a hell of a nice guy, and can actually work pretty well as an indy strong style kinda guy (in the vain of a Dan Maff, or a slower Kevin Steen) but instead continues to do this shit, and now walks with a permanent limp, his head and body are all scarred up, and I just don't get it.

I was doing color commentary for a company near Pittsburgh that was actually starting to gain a bit of momentum doing a mix of ECW and ROH and then the money mark behind it decided we needed to have a Deathmatch tournament. It drew the biggest crowd the company ever had, and next thing you know, it's a death match promotion. I ended my association with the company at that point (not trying to put myself over, or say I am above it, it's just there are only so many ways you can say "Oh he hit him with -insert object here-" and not come across as fucking bored on commentary, and I had zero interest in calling it) Fast forward 5 years later, and the company has gone from running monthly shows, to running 1 show a year, which is the fucking deathmatch tournament. So much for the momentum.

It's just not sustainable. You keep giving them increasingly more violent stupidity, and eventually someone is going to have to saw an arm off to get that CZDub chant started. I'm sure the 25 bucks, and a hot dog will be worth it.

[El-P]

19 minutes ago, Blehschmidt said:

I'm with El-P on this one. FMW and ECW were one thing. ECW was mostly just tables, chairs, and shit the audience brought them. The only time it ever really got out of hand was the Funk/Sabu barbed wire match, and even then it was once. Like El-P stated above, FMW was supposedly all of this violent shit, but it was really a whole lot of selling and teasing the violent shit, and then you got a couple of bumps out of it and it was enough to send the people home happy.

Yep. Even some of the early Gangstas matches, despite some stiff object shots, were a whole lot of bullshit that *looked* like a giant brawl (the "Natural Born Killaz" blaring through the PA system helped the atmosphere immensely too) but really couldn't be that hurtful.

[SirEdger]

Deathmatches are a double-edged sword. Sure, they can bring you more fans but it can easily turn away others in your current fanbase. When I was helping with the booking of a local promotion a few years back, one of the wrestlers asked if they could have something along the lines of the deathmatch, promising me that'd bring around 15-20 more fans. Of course, I accepted, thinking about the attendance number rather than the possible consequences and aftermath. Lo and behold, those 15-20 people never showed up and we lost a sponsor along the way. And we never booked the guy either (although I learned later that he pretty much was working the show because the booker of our partner promotion wanted him to, not because he himself wanted to) so that's a lesson I learned and a mistake I never did afterwards.

[Blehschmidt]

17 minutes ago, El-P said:

Yep. Even some of the early Gangstas matches, despite some stiff object shots, were a whole lot of bullshit that *looked* like a giant brawl (the "Natural Born Killaz" blaring through the PA system helped the atmosphere immensely too) but really couldn't be that hurtful.

It's the nature of the objects being used too. I'd gladly take ten shots to the head with some thin ass cookie sheets and a dollar store frying pan, before I took a weed whacker to the stomach and a staple gun to my forehead. Sure occasionally, like you said there was some nasty shots, but these kids today with all of the light tubes, and other stupid shit are just nuts. I swear I saw them using a fucking cactus in that viking funeral match. Please, hit me with a VCR, but I'll be damned if I am pulling Cactus Needles out of my back for the next week.

[C.S.]

You guys definitely know more about Deathmatches, Onita, CZW, etc. than I do. It's not a style I've ever sought out, to be honest.

In CZW's defense, I was impressed by the storyboarding and architectural designs that went into the Danny Havoc "Viking Funeral" match. That's a lot more planning and - let's face it - thought than I was expecting.

I watched the fifth episode - Powerful Women - about female wrestlers, domestic abuse, the Fighting Cholitas, etc. (The sixth episode - The Next Wave of Luchadores - dropped when this one did, but I'll watch it later.)

Maybe it was the downbeat subject matter, but I could not get into this episode as much. Still, don't let my mood discourage you, because there's lots of good stuff.

A couple of notes:

- While never specifically stated in the documentary, JAY RIOS is the USELESS PIECE OF SHIT who abused Mia Yim. His name should be blasted in neon lights, because fuck him, and fuck all of her "friends" who sided with him, didn't believe her, and/or wanted her keep quiet.

- Here's the HuffPo article about Mia Yim mentioned in the episode: https://www.huffpost.com/entry/this-popular-female-wrest_b_11269074

- If you're interesting in the Fighting Cholitas, there's a full-length documentary about them called Mamachas Del Ring. I bought it on VUDU a while back with credits, but I still haven't watched it. 

It's now free on VUDU - with ads. 

https://www.vudu.com/content/movies/details/Mamachas-Del-Ring/277503

[El-P]

9 hours ago, C.S. said:

You guys definitely know more about Deathmatches, Onita, CZW, etc. than I do. It's not a style I've ever sought out, to be honest.

Have you seen Onita vs Funk from Kawasaki Stadium 5/5/93 ? If anything, you need to watch that one. And also Megumi Kudo vs Combat Toyoda from 5/5/96, which was Combat's retirement match and to this day one of the greatest match/spectacle I've seen. You need to see the entire thing though, with intros and post-match, which is totally part of the whole FMW presentation. (both are in complete form on Youtube, damn,when I think about how much I paid for VHS tapes back in 1999  )

[Blehschmidt]

43 minutes ago, El-P said:

Have you seen Onita vs Funk from Kawasaki Stadium 5/5/93 ? If anything, you need to watch that one. And also Megumi Kudo vs Combat Toyoda from 5/5/96, which was Combat's retirement match and to this day one of the greatest match/spectacle I've seen. You need to see the entire thing though, with intros and post-match, which is totally part of the whole FMW presentation. (both are in complete form on Youtube, damn,when I think about how much I paid for VHS tapes back in 1999  )

25 bucks plus shipping for the IWA Kawasaki Dream King of the Deathmatch tournament on VHS in 1996 seemed like such a reasonable thing to me when I was 17 years old and thought dudes falling in exploding barbed wire was the coolest shit ever!

[Laz]

Kudo/Toyoda is still a top 10 match for me. Seeing Onita break down as the match nears an end seals it.

[El-P]

On 6/22/2019 at 5:28 AM, C.S. said:

I watched the fifth episode - Powerful Women - about female wrestlers, domestic abuse, the Fighting Cholitas, etc. (The sixth episode - The Next Wave of Luchadores - dropped when this one did, but I'll watch it later.)

I found it very interesting, I had no idea the Fighting Cholitas even existed. 

The Luchadors episode is fantastic. The story of Arkangel Divino & Ultimo Maldito is quite something. Rey Fenix comes off like such a genuine, nice guy here. He really is the next Rey Jr, hopefully he and Penta will explode in the US with AEW. Enjoyed the political/social side of things is those two episodes too.

I have to agree, although I've not watched all episodes, this is much better than Dark Sides. If I had to explain why I was a pro-wrestling fan to someone who doesn't know anything about it apart from the usual stereotype, I'd probably show him some of this (not the deathmatch episode, of course).

[bobholly138]

While I enjoyed Darkside,The Wrestlers is so much better. My mother,who has never cared for wrestling,is hooked on The Wrestlers. Been trying to find time to watch each new episode with her every week.

[The Thread Killer]

On 6/21/2019 at 1:33 PM, El-P said:

...there's a HUGE difference between what Onita used to do and what CZW and Freedom of Big Japan are doing now...Onita's style was based on selling and teasing a whole lot more than doing a hundred insane bumps into glass and shit like this. Plus, he packed stadiums and made himself a shitload of money...Mick Foley did some really, really stupid shit, and he's paying for it now, but he also made himself and his family quite a living, at least...this to me is unnecessary bullshit.

 

 

On 6/21/2019 at 3:39 PM, Blehschmidt said:

I'm with El-P on this one. FMW and ECW were one thing. ECW was mostly just tables, chairs, and shit the audience brought them. The only time it ever really got out of hand was the Funk/Sabu barbed wire match, and even then it was once. Like El-P stated above, FMW was supposedly all of this violent shit, but it was really a whole lot of selling and teasing the violent shit, and then you got a couple of bumps out of it and it was enough to send the people home happy...Now, it's just too much. Bump after bump into stupider and stupider shit for little to no money and virtually zero chance at ever making it to the big dance.

Both @El-P and @Blehschmidt make total sense and I could not agree with them more.

Back in the 90's nobody I knew loved "hardcore" wrestling more than I did.  I ordered FMW tapes from tape traders, I bought ECW bootlegs because they didn't have TV in Canada, and I used to drive all the way from Toronto to Buffalo just to see ECW live.  But the so-called "hardcore" stuff and "death matches" that happen now are a pretty pale comparison to that classic stuff, in my opinion. Like El-P said, there is a massive difference between what guys like Onita, Funk and Foley did back then and the stuff that goes on today - in the States and in Japan. I know it sounds goofy, but the old FMW and ECW actually had a perverse kind of psychology to it, whereas a lot of this new stuff is basically the Pro Wrestling equivalent of torture porn.

Some fans seem to forget that the best "hardcore" wrestlers could actually...you know...WRESTLE.  There is a legitimate argument to be made that Terry Funk could be the greatest Pro Wrestler of all time, and what guys like he and Onita and even Foley understood was how to work the crowd, and how implied violence is often more effective than the actual bump itself.  Those guys could structure an entire match around the suspense of taking one or two big bumps into a supposedly electrified cage or the ring "exploding."  Even if you watch the infamous "King of the Deathmatch" tournament from 1995, most of those matches were based around a guy taking one or two big bumps.  (And even then, the matches weren't really all that good.) Besides, Onita got famous partially due to his personality and charisma, not just the violence.  One of the biggest parts of his act was his post-match promos where he'd break down and cry and hug his opponents.  I don't speak Japanese and I could see that guy had "it" in spades.

Even in ECW, as much as some people like to remember it as some crazy hardcore fed, they stuck to the brawling basics.  Chairs, tables and brawling through the crowd.  Sure, the Dudleys would light tables on fire, and sure New Jack would jump off balconies, but they always built to that. Yeah there was the odd barbed wire match in ECW, but their shows weren't based on nothing but crazy hardcore stunts one after the other. People remember the goofy soap opera story between Raven and Tommy Dreamer as much as they remember Sabu getting stuck in barbed wire.

A lot of the modern death match stuff I have seen has made me sick.  As soon as Big Japan and other places started doing stupid shit like bringing florescent light-bulbs into it and then building from there, in my opinion it went from cool to gross, and then from gross to outright stupid. The scene didn't evolve it degraded. El-P brought up a good point as well, Onita started doing this crazy shit in front of packed stadiums.  At least he made money from this stuff (in the beginning.) Today you get morons breaking light-tubes over each other's heads in their backyard or in a damn barn in front of 150 people.  And if you took that stupid shit away from those scarred up morons and asked them to work a normal match, they'd shit in their ripped jeans. In May of 1998, Funk and Foley had a great brawl on RAW and didn't have to resort to any of that stupid shit...they had an old school Memphis style brawl and it worked great.  Like Foley said in his first book, these guys need to learn how to apply a wristlock, then they can break a table. If you have to get sliced up or cut somebody else in order to have a match and can't do anything else, then I really don't consider you a wrestler.

I know that most of the guys who compete in modern death matches are themselves fans of the old school stuff, and they're just trying to intensify the violence and ramp it up because modern death match fans have been desensitized and expect more and more brutality...but I honestly feel that whole scene went badly off the rails somewhere.  I liken the modern death match scene to what happened to Punk Rock.  I know a lot of punk fans loved the Sex Pistols, and got into music to emulate them.  But what a lot of them missed, is if you listen to "Never Mind The Bollocks" you discover that by the time the Pistols had finished recording that album, they had matured into pretty fucking good musicians.  That's why that album still stands up today.  But some kids listened to it, gave themselves a mohawk, stuck a safety pin through their nose and thought if they could play two chords, that made them a Punk Rocker.  In theory, sure yeah...it did.  But a lot of the bands that followed the Pistols or the Clash sucked, because they never understood what made the early Punk bands succeed.  It was the attitude combined with skill...not just screaming and spitting at people.

One of my closest friends, is friends with a former CZW wrestler, who was relatively famous.  This former CZW guy told my friend that he quit CZW and death match wrestling altogether because he realized he was literally killing himself and going broke for no reason whatsoever.  He was getting sliced to ribbons by broken glass at shows, making shit money and performing in front of small crowds who didn't give a shit about him and just wanted to see him bleed.  That's a far cry from what the early death match guys were doing.  I don't blame these newer "wrestlers" for being fans and copying their idols, but unfortunately the death match scene grew until it was unwieldy and it kind of ended up eating itself alive.

[Blehschmidt]

That's a great fucking post @The Thread Killer. I was a teenager in a college town in the early 90's and every kid with a Ramone's t-shirt and a guitar that could find a drummer who could keep up was starting a punk band and your comparison couldn't be more on point.

You are also absolutely right about ECW, I think far less about the flaming tables and the New Jack dives and think fondly of Foley cutting promo's with a Mr. Potato Head, or Stevie Richards as Baron Von Stevie trying to put Joey Styles in the Claw!!

The Beulah pregnancy angle may be my favorite post 1980's wrestling segment period, and it's most hardcore moment was the infamous "Tommy, use my sign" stop sign shot. But that had nothing to do with it. It was the moment. It was everyone playing the part to perfection. It was the culmination of so many moments.

Frankly, I think it sucks that the lasting legacy of ECW is assholes falling through tables.

[El-P]

I jumped right into the Voodoo Wrestling in Congo, and I won't spoil anything, but everybody should watch that. I can't think of anything more "pro-wrestling" that what you see during that episode. Amazing stuff.

[El-P]

I thought the DDT episode, although interesting, was clearly one of the lesser of the whole serie. I also have no idea what to really think about Dino. I'm not afraid of dirty humour, but honestly the rapy stuff is cringy.

However, don't pass on the Wrestling in Canada's reserve. Great episode, pretty uplifting stuff despite the social context it reveals.

[El-P]

The last episode about the Exoticos is easily one of the best one. Fascinating stuff. I loved how it tackled the subject of how the exoticos themselves kinda carry some negative stereotypes about gay people, as said by the gay activist who was not crazy about them at first. That's something I thought about immediately first time I saw Sonny Kiss in LU. Don't get me wrong, I love the guy and believe he sure should be featured big time in AEW. But I can't think of a more "openly gay", to quote George Carlin, way of acting, very much in a totally stereotyped way (and hell, carrying stereotypes about feminity too, with all the twerking and stuff). So, it seems obvious that a guy like Cornette, who probably is not very familiar with all things gay "culture", seeing him for the very first time without any explanation and pushing Tommy Dreamer into his ass would think "comedy transvestite character". Those are parts of the characterization of the exoticos, with comedy "gay" spots, including kissing guys in the audience. Anyway, I thought I would throw that out there about Corny, because calling him homophobic really strikes me as totally missing the point.

One other thing that is really interesting is how for instance Estrella Divina (whom I'd love to see more of on AAA big TV shows, I guess she's featured on smaller shows) would rather be called a luchadora. So the exotico label, despite allowing gay and transgender luchadors to work on the big stage, also keep them under one label, which is still somewhat of a ghetto. Kudos for AEW for already being passed that point BTW.

The attitude of the crowd toward the exotico is very different too, you can feel quite a bit of homophobia still. About the "puto" chant they are all doing all the time, I thought this one was pretty interesting too (plus, study of language is my "thing"), as even the exoticos are using it. So, it can be homophobic, but also not really (reminds me of the infamous South Park episode about the bikers, which was spot on about how a word can change meaning depending on whom is using it and with which goal). 

In the end, it's a pretty complex affair, rather progressive but still carrying stereotypes (progressive *through* carrying stereotypes, in a paradoxal way). Loved this episode, loved this serie, I hope we get a season 2.

[flyonthewall2983]

 

[CarpetCrawler]

New season begins in two days with a two-hour episode about Chris Benoit.  For now, they put up the first hour for free on YouTube:

 

[sek69]

Just finished watching, and god damn. That was like an hour of being emotionally punted in the groin over and over. 

I couldn't help but be struck by the similarities with Benoit and the Von Erich boys, where they never had a chance to properly grieve and it marked a clear path of decline. Hindsight is 20/20 and all that, but someone so reserved suddenly becoming an emotional mess should have raised more red flags but the theme of this story has always been no one could believe any of this would ever have happened. 

Watching Chris break down completely on the Eddie memorial show was rough at the time and it's only about a million times more so now. As was hearing David say him and Daniel wanted to be tag team champions one day. It's almost kind of heartwarming to see David still be able to talk about how his dad was his hero as a kid, but that only drives home how absolutely insane it was when everything happened.

Hearing Jericho relate a story similar to one Dave Meltzer has told before about Benoit hugging him at Eddie's funeral almost in desperation while crying deep heaving sobs was eerie as well. 

In all of it though, the roughest part was finding out from Chavo that Eddie died in his arms. I've only ever heard that Chavo found him in the bathroom, but to hear that he actually listened to his uncle expire.....Jesus Christ.

[flyonthewall2983]

Watching Vickie was really tough. She's such an amazing person for having gone through all that and to have survived it, whether through faith, family or the bond she has with who is left. Lots of open wounds here, and it's commendable that they are telling the story the best way they can.

Did Nancy's sister make those allegations against Sullivan before? I vaguely remember that some of the things she said on podcasts were of some controversy.

[sek69]

She wasn't the first one to make those allegations, it was supposedly one of those things that was an open secret but no one said anything because...reasons. Possibly because Sullivan had booking power in a lot of places and no one wanted to potentially derail their careers over someone's wife getting knocked around. 

[flyonthewall2983]

I never heard them before but I shouldn't be surprised. Why he never got a job in WWE after WCW folded makes a bit more sense now. Bastard. 

Dean Malenko has Parkinsons? I read that in one of the comments, not that I'm taking it as gospel but he did seem to tremor a little during his interview.

[ragemaster]

19 hours ago, sek69 said:

 

In all of it though, the roughest part was finding out from Chavo that Eddie died in his arms. I've only ever heard that Chavo found him in the bathroom, but to hear that he actually listened to his uncle expire.....Jesus Christ.

Still have to watch the doc, but the noises Chavo may have heard was just the air/gases escaping the dead body. especially if he moved him to see if he was alive. Still going to mess with your head, as your not going to know the difference.

[flyonthewall2983]

Sounds very likely, from the way Chavo put it. 

[SirEdger]

6 hours ago, flyonthewall2983 said:

I never heard them before but I shouldn't be surprised. Why he never got a job in WWE after WCW folded makes a bit more sense now. Bastard. 

Dean Malenko has Parkinsons? I read that in one of the comments, not that I'm taking it as gospel but he did seem to tremor a little during his interview.

Yeah, Dean has been diagnosed recently with Parkinson's...Probably a couple of months ago but I couldn't tell you exactly when.