The Wade Keller Appreciation Thread

[Loss]

It's more the way he always works in a backhanded compliment when discussing Jericho. I'm laughing more at Wade's general snark than I am the points he's making.

[Jingus]

I have no idea what the hell he's trying to say there. People who've watched wrestling for eleven years or longer will automatically agree that Jericho isn't a star?

[jdw]

I agree with the notion that Wade's point is confused and confusing.

 

He's rather pathological about Jericho at this point, a bit like Dave when some aspect of Montreal gets mentioned and "Here we go again..."

 

Note - I tend to agree with Dave on Montreal far more than the Vince Supporters viiew point. Simply that Dave said about 98% of what he had to say about Montreal within the first 12-18 months after the event, and it's been rehash since then... and an itch he can't but help to scratch when it comes up. :/

 

 

John

[Jingus]

One buddy of mine who's a former indy worker brought up an excellent point: why did Bret need to have physical possession of the belt at that point? Why didn't Vince just say "hey champ, leave the strap with me til tomorrow"? That easily would've solved the entire Throw It In The Trash On Nitro debate.

 

I re-read Wade's post a couple more times, and IO still don't understand what he was trying to say. Only recent (but not TOO recent) fans would consider Jericho a star? Can anyone explain what he might've possibly meant with that?

[Boondocks Kernoodle]

Vince knew Bret wouldn't throw the title in the trash. That's just something he told the wrestlers so they didn't revolt.

[Guest STAN]

Wade's a swell dude.

[kjh]

I thought the more interesting jab was at his work. Not that I disagree with the sentiment, but he listed several guys who were viewed by WWE as disappointing failures for one reason or another when they were pushed as the franchise of the promotion. Also in today's environment, with all the deaths, injuries and aging of their top workers, if Jericho is still simply "very good", he'll be a better worker than most of the guys left.

[Loss]

His implication was that no one who had watched wrestling for any length of time would like Chris Jericho. It's funny simply because it's so petty.

[Guest KCook]

The funny thing is that Wade is actually right, but not for the reasons he thinks he is. I also love the insanity of holding workers to the standard of Guerrero and Benoit, for a variety of reasons.

[Bix]

He's not wrong, but the "FIGHT THE POWER" parts are amusingly pretentious.

 

This year (2007), he read What To Eat and Chew on This and shortly thereafter decided to try a vegan diet for reasons of health, environment, and (primarily) animal welfare (in protest of corporate factor farming practices that will become a bigger story in coming years as more people realize the changes in farming and animal treatment and feeds in recent decades). Check out this GoVeg.com webpage for a quick list of compelling reasons to consider a diet that will inevitably, he believes, become more popular and common over the next few years when people learn what large, impersonal, profit-driven businesses have done to food production. The killing (via suffocation or grinding them alive for feed) of millions of male chicks the day they're born due to their uselessness to the egg-laying industry is apalling and reason enough to give up eggs from any source other than a local, old-fashioned small family non-corporate farm that you visit yourself or know for a fact doesn't engage in that practice (and no, "organic" and "all-natural" doesn't mean animals are treated well and "free-range" doesn't exclude the mass killing of male chicks or the horrid cruelty of veal production that are a byproduct of the dairy industry). The fact that pregnancy is induced in dairy cows so they produce milk and that their male calves (unfit as beef cattle because they're not bred to be "meaty") become veal is a compelling reason to give up dairy entirely. The new substitutes and options in a vegan diet, including delicious almond milk and meltable, sliceable cheddar and mozzarella soy-based cheese), make the decision easier than in the past.

 

Download this book (free), the New Ethics of Eating, and be informed/appalled and perhaps inspired to do your part to change the world (and your health and energy) by adapting a vegan diet (or a mostly-vegan diet with only occasional grass-fed, natural-living family farm exceptions for eggs, milk, and meat from a local farm or farmer's market). The online resources to make it a smooth transition and an exciting, healthy change in your life are immense. You'll feel mentally better the day you decide to never support unnecessarily extreme animal cruelty by profit-driven corporate greed that has ruined a previously relatively humane family farming structure of just a few decades ago, and you'll feel immensely physically better within three days after adopting a healthier diet (a healthy vegan diet means little or no soda of any kind, by the way, so don't replace milk with cola and expect to feel better). Within three weeks, your taste pallet will change and you won't desire the foods that were dragging you down before, completely unbenownst to you because you grew up on it and thought it must be okay since everyone does it, unaware of how mass production had led to once-nutritious food being converted slowly to what amounts to "flavored matter" that (sort of) resembles real food in taste but is cheaper to produce and nutritionally inferior to an alarming degree. People felt cigarettes were just part of the culture and okay three generations ago, and we learned it was wrong. Same with today's food supply methods and nutritional mores.

 

Favorite Vegan-Friendly Restaurants: Chiptole, Moe's Mexican Grille, Viva Italia, Granite City Grille, any Thai restaurant, AZIA, Ruby Tuesdays.

 

(Think you can't live without a milk shake? Blend this at home: 1 cup ice, 1 tablespoon pure cocoa powder, two bananas, two heaping tablespoons of pure organic Manitoba hemp powder rich in protein and fiber (you may need to stop at Whole Foods type market to find this), and two cups almond milk. No lactose bloating. No refined sugar calories. No abused animal products. Fiber, protein, nutrients, essential amino acids aplenty. No guilt. No gut. No constipation. Incredible taste. Let me know what you think if you try it.)

[Guest *FH*]

Wacky wrestling views aside, I can't abide a dude who doesn't believe in the food chain.

[Bix]

Wacky wrestling views aside, I can't abide a dude who doesn't believe in the food chain.

[Bix]

He published this feedback:

 

Jackie Davis, Torch reader: I think it was perfectly acceptable for Shawn Michaels to use the crossface finishing move. It has not been proven beyond any doubt that Chris Benoit murdered his family and committed suicide. There are too many unanswered questions. WWE cannot be truly discussed without Benoit’s name being brought up. He was one of the greatest and that is how he will always be remembered to me, not someone who is a murderer. Great going Shawn!

[S.L.L.]

WWE cannot be truly discussed without Benoit’s name being brought up.

"In 2007, the rising popularity of John Cena seemed to be bringing the company into a new boom period. Their hopes were dashed, however, after Chris Benoit murdered his family and killed himself."

 

Well, when you're right, you're right.

[JHawk]

Wasn't it Keller who said the Jericho-RVD match from KOR 2002 sucked that led to Jericho's anti-internet tirade?

[Loss]

No, it was a Torch reader.

[Bix]

http://web.archive.org/web/20021010031640/.../commentary.htm

 

June 24, 2002

 

 

NP-Fozzy-Happenstance

 

Hello Jackoffs...

 

All right, I've had it. You want a war? Now you've got one. I'm suffering from a bout of insomnia, so I decided to go on the web and check out the reviews of the King Of The Ring from tonight, more specifically on the PW Torch website. After reading what all of you "smarks" (and believe me, you are all still marks) had to say about my match and the show, I am

furious.

 

Everybody has the right to an opinion and here's mine. I am sick of all you holier than thou, pompous, jackasses. That's it. That's all. Baby goes to sleep now. I had one of my best matches of the year tonight with RVD, that featured 20 minutes of tremendous action, innovative false finishes and an absolutely tremendous crowd. It was everything I could've asked for in a match and it was in my opinion, an off the charts performance from RVD and myself, match of the year caliber . I was so excited about the contest and I can humbly state that we stole the show. The crowd was so into it that they were burned out after we went on, quiet for the next 3-4 matches. They ate up every move from start to finish, and they enjoyed the hell out of it.

 

But now I read the opinions of some of you. Many of you state that the

match was very good or excellent. I agree. But many others are saying that the match was slow and predictable with one jackass even saying that it was one of the worst matches of my career!!! How can you honestly say that? What the hell do you people want? What is it that you are looking for? We go out there and bust our asses to entertain you (and if the Columbus fans were quiet, they sure as hell weren't during my match, they were entertained) and your thoughts were that bad?

 

Well if you didn't like my match tonight, then you are out of luck if you're a Jericho fan, cause it was the best you're gonna get, jerky. That was CJ at his finest. Wrestling at it's finest. A great 4 1/2 star performance with a tremendous build, a great crowd and an awesome match.

 

If you didn't like it, then stop watching me and stop watching the WWE and take up bowling, cause you will never like anything we give you.

 

I'm the first one to admit when my performance is not up to snuff, or when

something was bad and I'm the most self critical person on the WWE roster, but tonight's performance was me at my finest. Didn't like it? Get the F out then and good riddance to you.

 

For all of you that enjoyed my match I say thanks. For those that didn't

like it, I don't care cause I'm through with you.

 

I am now finished with the internet and I'm finished with this site because I hate what you marks are doing. You've spoiled it for me. Your negativity is ridiculous. You all come off like a bunch of bitter know-it alls, who won't be happy with anything we give you. Nothing is ever good enough and quite frankly I'm over it. You are the same people that are saying that Attack of the Clones is boring, analyzing every little detail, instead of allowing yourselves to be entertained by it's magic.

 

It seems that some of you wish the wrestling business would dry up and die, because some of you dislike EVERYTHING we do. Is it always good? No, but we are killing ourselves to try and entertain you and if you don't respect that, then kiss my ass. I want the business to be around forever and I am doing my part to keep it great and I did that tonight, no matter what any of you think.

 

Alot of the boys pander to you on their websites, asking for your input and your thoughts and I used to be one of them. Guess what? I'm not anymore. Think what you want. I don't care. Do what you want. I don't care. Respond how you want too as well, because I won't be reading. I don't give a damn about what you think anymore...

 

One of the best wrestlers in the world and one of the performers in the

best match of the night and match of year candidate from the KOR,

 

[Bix]

He's actually right about some things, but still comes across as whiny...

 

Dave and I used to talk 6-10 times per week in the late 80s and early 90s. For hours at a time.

 

During college, I got super-busy and talked less often with him on the phone. At some point, I realized that when I didn't talk to him as much, I was forming my own opinions - sometimes they were wrong and he was right, sometimes I think I saw things differently and we were both contributing opinions from different perspectives. I had people I was close to nudging me to try to pull away from being influenced by him so I could grow. I didn't really buy it as I was talking to a lot of people along with Dave each week, but I'm sure that planted a seed of a "protege" pulling away from the "mentor" being good for the protege to find their own voice.

 

We've talked occasionally over the past 10-15 years, but not very often -for a lot of reasons, none having to do with either of us not liking or respecting the other.

 

As I have written before on the other board years ago, there were things he has done that greatly disappointed me as a journalist (things I've had a singularly unique knowledge and perspective on) and I'd go so far as to say as a friend. I don't hold anyone to standards of perfection in order to think they're a good person, and Dave is without question one of the good people I've gotten to know in this industry over the past two decades - but more flawed than some followers bestow upon him (as am I!). I know Dave has been dismayed with some of choices I've made in terms of opinions and point of view on wrestling. (I don't think he has any question about the integrity of my reporting, just my point of view - and he has said as much.)

 

Over time, since we are different people, our products have grown in different ways. The Internet has changed what I do on a day to day basis much more than it has his. He's found success staying the course with the print-only approach for revenue. I've found more inspiration and motivation spreading my hours to include building the free and especially the VIP website.

 

If Dave and I were at the same wrestling show and had a chance to hang out in a group, I'm 100 percent sure we'd get along great as we always have when hanging out at wrestling shows over the years. People who know Dave just know how he is. He's a unique personality. I'm quirky and weird in my own ways, too.

 

This gets referenced a lot, so let me address it again... When Meltzer reviewed Eric Bischoff's book, he implied it was wrong for Bischoff to criticize by name the Torch and Observer for their coverage of WCW in the same sentence. (Bischoff wasn't generalizing a specific point of view or news story to both of us that only one of us wrote; he was just in general criticizing the quality or accuracy of our work covering his promotion.) Meltzer, needlessly, said we do completely different things. It was one of those plausibly deniable digs that Dave denied as a dig later, but it was. Whether he meant it as one is less important than it came across that way - obviously so, and pretty much out of left field. It was more insulting that he denied it was a dig than that he wrote it in the first place.

 

The problem is, back when WCW was around, there was no VIP site. We both did the same thing - a print newsletter, competing for the same breaking stories about WCW, and we often had the same news and we often scooped each other. We were very much doing the same thing - as close to the same thing as two people could possibly do in a line of work. The products are obviously very different now ten years later, and a big part of my job is managing the staff and contributors and doing audio and webmastering, etc., in addition to newsgathering and writing the newsletter. But back then, we were doing very similar things, and I doubt there was ever one stretch of time where there was a bigger gap in scoops in the Torch's favor (the "glory years of the Torch" people compare today unfavorably to) than during the WCW-WWF buyout and Monday Night Wars (thanks to having Jason Powell working side-by-side full time with me at the time, who contributed a lot to our dominant, accurate coverage of that time, much of which flew in the face of what Meltzer was hearing and reporting from his sources at the time, which ironically included Eric Bischoff, who got Dave to declare boldy that the Torch's report that the Fusient Media purchase was in jeopardy was wrong when in fact it was completely dead-on right. He wrote something close to this: "Regarding the Torch report, I don't even know what to say other than it's not true" in a one-sentence story on his website in reaction to the Torch report. It was one of the biggest single stories of that era, and the Torch was right about it, and a lot of other things going on because we had great sources and he had sources feeding him self-interested lies.

 

Dave has since rebounded with stellar reporting from inside WWE with a renewed collection of sources. I've learned over 20 years that in some stretches, you have reliable, plentiful sources, while other times it doesn't work out that way. There's an inevitable ebb and flow, some of which is luck, some of which is hard work. Dave has an incredible memory - absolutely freakishly amazing - and a single-minded devotion to knowing everything he possibly can about the wrestling industry. He's an amazing historian and reporter. I wouldn't even try to compete with him in his areas of strength because he's just that good in those areas, as Frank DeFord wrote the best in all of sports reporting in many ways.

 

Dave and I do very different things now, but not completely different things. There is crossover in terms of reporting on and analyzing the U.S. pro wrestling scene where some people might get both newsletters and see crossover and then decide for themselves in the ways the two are different, which appeals to them most. I think the fact that we've grown apart in many other ways is a service to pro wrestling fans who can buy both products (and I would recommend the Observer enthusiastically) and get very different things out of both, and definitely not a group-think approach to complex issues on a weekly basis. I'm kind of at a point in this career and my life that being compared to Meltzer against his strengths isn't something I can let get to me. I cannot do the entirety of what he does as well as he does and wouldn't even know how to attempt to try - especially so with my list of weekly responsibilities with the VIP site and managing a staff. (I also think he would be completely lost trying to do everything that goes into the entirety of the Torch business these days and everything that VIP members have gotten for their money each month.) Dave is phenomenal in many ways, and the history of the wrestling industry will be written by him more than any other five people. I know for a fact, though, that writing the history of the last 20 years of pro wrestling without the Torch as a primary second source would leave the recorded history of the industry incomplete. I hope - and the support of our subscribers indicates as much - that what I and the staff do here with PWTorch enhances people's days and weeks as they march through life following wrestling.

[jdw]

He's right about pretty much all of it. It's also just about impossible to write that without coming across whiny or bitchy. The truth some times is a bitch.

 

John

[Loss]

Call me crazy, but I think that's the most rational thing I've seen Wade Keller write in a long time. You can see where he's coming from, whether you agree with it or not.

 

And while I do at times agree with things he says, for the most part, I don't. He makes it a point to say that he was insulted when Dave said that the Torch and the Observer do different things, and while there are without a doubt more similarities than differences, even in '93, you didn't have Meltzer seeking out guest columnists and doing transcripts of interviews. Dave likes to make the USA Today/New York Times comparison.

 

I'm glad he finally basically admitted that he has no sources of note currently in WWE. He hasn't broken anything himself in years. Maybe the way he did get screwed in the way he accurately reported the last few months of WCW while Meltzer in many ways worked against him eventually got to him, but he's not the same Wade Keller he was at one point, which he has admitted himself a few times.

 

The Torch is glossier and more polished, and makes far better use of the available technology. If Dave had the foresight to create a WON VIP site with a private message board, old WOL episodes archived as audio files, and old WONs easily accessible and available, he would blow Wade out of the water. If Dave could learn a few things from Wade's "production values" and hire a competent proofreader and make the print format of the Observer more reader-friendly, it would help a great deal. Likewise, if Keller attempted to put more of his coverage in stronger historical perspective, and dropped his columnists, the Torch would improve. Seriously, the columns are nothing but editorials and speculation. I think it probably served a purpose at one point and Bruce Mitchell has written some great stuff, but because wrestling opinions are so plentiful with the Internet, I don't think they serve a purpose anymore. Fluff fluff fluff, the Torch is filled with it.

 

I think both Meltzer and Keller have strengths the other doesn't have. Wade, for all his insanity, does strike me as a good-hearted person. In the same token, he is writing a sheet that exposes the wrestling business, a business that attempts to lure people in with sales pitches and hype, by trying to do the same with his readers. Dave overestimates the intelligence of his audience at times by writing things without fully explaining them, or by underestimating how much his opinions influence his readers. Wade drastically underrates his audience by writing columns about what he suspects WWE is thinking instead of REPORTING NEWS. Fluff fluff fluff. All the hype and obvious marketing of the Torch is really transparent and insincere seeming (like when he pretended that the Torch site crashed a few years back, only to miraculously find the solution by launching the pay VIP site), and because he's so clueless and behind the times, Dave comes across as much less of a peddler or salesman than Wade.

 

In some ways, Wade gets unfair criticism. He tends to zone in on someone, Chris Jericho being the most glowing example, and rip them to shreds without attempting to balance it out with their positives. It undermines him and makes him look silly. He gives MMA matches star ratings. He stretches out his Torch Talks so much, which I would think makes subscribers feel jipped. But he's also not someone I'd classify as afraid of reporting the truth, even when it's about his friends. It's always been obvious that he is close with Sean Waltman, but he has had the courage to criticize him at times also. Dave Meltzer has never really been able to do that with Ric Flair, Jim Ross or Jim Cornette.

 

Where Dave differs is that if he has issues with someone like an HHH, he criticizes the amount of pull he has and how stale he has become, but he also strongly argues that the guy has earned his spot and drawn money, and that his motives are not entirely 100% selfish 100% of the time. When Dave decides to criticize someone, it doesn't turn into a full criticism of everything they do most of the time (yeah yeah, Bob Backlund, but work with me, and even there, Dave did vote for him in the HOF).

 

It's good to see Wade admits that Dave has some great sources at this time, and indirectly says that he is going through a drought in terms of WWE sources. But while I do think Dave is still the gold standard, I don't know that even he is quite as in tune as he was at one time. He doesn't speak to Vince anymore. With Stephanie McMahon now as one of the two or three most influential people in wrestling, it seems like she's a source Dave just hasn't been able to tap at all, and you can sometimes sense his frustrations with that when he writes about her. Jim Ross isn't really in a position of power anymore. Who in the inner circle is a strong Dave confidant? Vince has been willing to go on record in the Torch and answer questions at times, although it's been years, and I've always suspected that Vince felt more comfortable talking to Wade, maybe because he knew that no matter how nice and inviting he was toward Dave, it wasn't going to influence his coverage or soften his stance toward the WWF.

[Guest STAN]

Who in the inner circle is a strong Dave confidant?

Outstanding write up and thats an excellent question that I would also like answered.

[sek69]

I dunno, Wade comes off sounding like an old territory promoter bitching about how someone beat him with what is technically an inferior product (style wise, not information wise). I agree that what he's saying is pretty much entirely right, but someone who writes for a living should be able to state his opinions without sounding like he's going to start texting his physical address to people.

It's always been obvious that he is close with Sean Waltman, but he has had the courage to criticize him at times also. Dave Meltzer has never really been able to do that with Ric Flair, Jim Ross or Jim Cornette.

I don't know, it seems like he's been pretty fair with Cornette at least re: his TNA run. He was also pretty honest about Flair needing to get out of the ring, but it's obvious he's mad that Flair won't get the big sendoff due to how his retirement angle is being booked. Conversely, I think it's silly to expect WWE to devote chunks of airtime every week to mention its Flair's last match in whatever city they're in, but Dave seems to think it makes baby Jesus cry. As far as Ross goes, I always got the impression Dave feels sorry for him since Vince uses him as his personal cat toy to bat around for his amusement.

 

 

Who in the inner circle is a strong Dave confidant?

Has he even had a source in the inner circle since Ross stepped down?

[Bix]

Michael Hayes talked to Dave on the record for the Terry Gordy obituary. It wouldn't shock me at all that he's a source.

 

Back to Wade, the "we do completely different jobs" stuff (Originally "Worse, [bischoff] linked me in the same sentence as Wade Keller without any sort of differentiation.") came off as much more unnecessarily nasty than anything Dave's said about anyone in years, though when I asked him about it later he said he just meant that it wasn't right to group everyone together as the exact same thing.

[Guest KCook]

Loss, I think one thing you have to keep in mind with Dave is that he's the top MMA reporter in the country. His bigger Yahoo articles are getting something ridiculous like 1.5 million hits apiece, and they're just terrific. The stuff he gets, for the column and the newsletter, is the equivalent of having everyone from Vince, Bischoff, Heyman, Hogan, Austin, and TV executives all the way down to indy guys, jobbers, and guys in training, on the record every week on every big issue, in 1998.

 

Keller might have a point about running a message board and managing contributors, but at this point wrestling is honestly Dave's #2 line and the WON's wrestling coverage is still on another planet compared to the Torch (I'm guessing, can't remember the last time I read it). Keller is really more comparable to Alvarez now, and he comes up pretty damn short there, too.

[jdw]

Agree with Cook on Dave, MMA and Yahoo. The tricky issue there would be what Dave is making off it, and whether it drives anything towards something he makes money off of.

 

Dave isn't exactly the sharpest when it comes to the front end of business decisions. He was the anchor to the Hotline, and always was going to be if he had a clue going in. But other people made a good chunk of change off it for being "partners" while adding almost no value. The website has been discussed over the years, probably funniest by Zach Arnold when he was an insider there. He made a sting of errors there. eYada was great for Dave because he was one of the folks getting paid while Meyerwitz blew through investors money like a crack whore going through her rocks. But I'm not sure if the experiance was a positive for his business other than the $$$, and it something that a longtime reader like Yohe points to as the point where the opinion element of the wrestling side of the WON started declining pretty fast. So...

 

There are people who do what Dave does over at Yahoo and it's nearly their entire career. Rob Neyer at ESPN has been doing webpage pieces for ages... I want to say back to the 90s. It pays enough that it's what he does, with the books he's written almost side projects. There are a lot of other guys like that.

 

Considering the hits Dave gets, he should be making a big chunk of change. Not more than he makes off the WON print version at this point (depending on what the subscriber base is)... but a big chunk o' change.

 

I'm not sure if that's the case. I hope it is for his sake, but he's not always cut great deals or really thought these things out in depth. :/

 

 

John