Chris, Nancy, & Daniel Benoit found dead

[sek69]

Anyone else think WWE/Vince is going to go completely nuts when the toxicology results come back? Surely Benoit won't be clean and it will pretty much torpedo every argument WWE has made so far.

 

Of course Vince will see this as proof the media is out to get him. That's what's going to end up hurting the company in the long run. If they would have just shut the fuck up and let the investigation lead to wherever it would go before sending employees out to cut wrestling promos on cable news shows, they would end up looking 1000000% better than they do now.

[Bix]

Anyone else think WWE/Vince is going to go completely nuts when the toxicology results come back? Surely Benoit won't be clean and it will pretty much torpedo every argument WWE has made so far.

Oh, totally, and it will lead to the frighteningly transparent talking point that Kennedy floated on Fox News as the company line: Benoit only took steroids the last 2 months of his life!!!!!!!1111111

 

Of course Vince will see this as proof the media is out to get him. That's what's going to end up hurting the company in the long run. If they would have just shut the fuck up and let the investigation lead to wherever it would go before sending employees out to cut wrestling promos on cable news shows, they would end up looking 1000000% better than they do now.

I know Vince was less insane then, but he and the rest of the company handled themselves soooooooo much better during the sex scandals.

[Tim Evans]

I really think that Vince will take the whole hour of ECW when the Tox reports come back and just go off on everyone, the media, meltzer, marc mero etc.

 

And if Vince didn't change his policy after Eddie, He won't now. The Meltzer editorial was great but at the end of the day, will it really matter? Will Congress and the right people see it? I'd be lying if I said I thought so.

 

I agree with Loss when he says the media coverage hasn't been that bad. The only real bad media coverage is Nancy Grace and she's the only one that really covers it besides Abrams cause she needs ratings. Like she really cares about drugs in wrestling.

[sek69]

The only thing that's worse than wrestling's attitude towards its problems is the attitude anyone in any position of power has. It's just what Whitlock touched on in his column, it's like no one cares because its just some silly rasslers doing their fake fighting who are the ones dying.

 

In a warped way, Vince is doing what he thinks he needs to do to keep his company alive. These state commission types who say they don't want to regulate wrestling because their plates are full with MMA and boxing are more scummy because they're basically saying "fuck those wrestling guys, who cares if they die and/or kill others".

[Boondocks Kernoodle]

Anyone else think WWE/Vince is going to go completely nuts when the toxicology results come back?

Am I an asshole for saying that I really hope this does happen and the company's insanity returns to late 2005/early 2006 levels where each week they would do something that would make you think it was the dumbest thing they had ever done and then they would find a way to top it the next week? (i.e. JR gets fired on air > Colon surgery skit > Austin asked to job to Coach > Orton crashes Eddie's lowrider > Orton sees Undertaker in the mirror, Josh Matthews talks in Taker's voice > Tim White attempts suicide > Orton tells Rey that Eddie's IN HELL) While I know it's hard to see the good in such an awful situation, the desensitized wrestling fan in me is eager to see how all this criticism affects their TV.

[Guest Will]

I think the drug testing is obviously part of the problem, but it's not the major issue here. The major issue is that Vince McMahon favors big guys over small guys, and will give big guys more opportunities to main event than small guys. You can argue that he's only giving the fans what they want, but this is also an industry that justifies racism and sexism and homophobia because they are just giving their audience what they want. They primarily cater to filthy people that shouldn't be catered to, in terms of their fanbase, and that's the big issue. The type of fans that prefer roided up big guys to smaller guys don't deserve to get what they want if it's resulting in premature death after premature death.

 

Stop pushing guys based on their physiques. That's the biggest thing WWE could do.

That's hits the nail on the head in one simple paragraph.

It stinks when guys that have genuine talent (Benoit, Eddy, Rey Jr.), that happen to be naturally smaller, are forced (to compete) to take damaging drugs to "look the part". Fans that appreciated their ability long ago didn't care if they looked like body-builders (although Benoit always looked over-muscled), it was their work and skill that mattered. It's sad that the lowest common denominator and the dumbest rube is what the industry caters to and guys are dying for the money and the cheers of these undeserving people.

[Strummer]

Keith's Blog (yes I'm sorry):

 

And then, further down the update, we discover that Mark Henry wanted to retire 3 years ago, but Benoit convinced him to return. Well, damn, we should have known THEN that he was no good.

 

Oh fuck you Scott. Just SHUT THE FUCK UP.

[JHawk]

Having seen Kennedy on Fox News, I thought he came off about as well as he could have given the fact that he had to tow the company line.

 

While Finlay looked horrible on Nancy Grace, the fact that she immediately pointed out "the list" and essentially saying "They're all wrestlers and that's all that matters" took me completely out of the segment, particularly as it came out right around the time Joey Marella's name came on the screen.

 

Has anybody brought out the list and omitted the guys that died of cancer or car accidents or stuff that isn't possibly drug related yet? That is the list with relevance to the subject (and is likely to be way too high as well but would be far less misleading).

[Bix]

Having seen Kennedy on Fox News, I thought he came off about as well as he could have given the fact that he had to tow the company line.

"MAYBE HE JUST DID STEROIDS THE DAY HE DIED!!!!!!!!!!!1111111111111111"

 

No.

[Loss]

Having seen Kennedy on Fox News, I thought he came off about as well as he could have given the fact that he had to tow the company line.

 

While Finlay looked horrible on Nancy Grace, the fact that she immediately pointed out "the list" and essentially saying "They're all wrestlers and that's all that matters" took me completely out of the segment, particularly as it came out right around the time Joey Marella's name came on the screen.

 

Has anybody brought out the list and omitted the guys that died of cancer or car accidents or stuff that isn't possibly drug related yet? That is the list with relevance to the subject (and is likely to be way too high as well but would be far less misleading).

It doesn't really matter the cause of the deaths. Owen Hart would still be alive if he weren't a pro wrestler, whether his death was drug-related or not. He died because of stupid petty wrestling bullshit. Eddy Guerrero died because of stupid petty pro wrestling bullshit. There is a parallel, regardless of the cause of death.

[Loss]

I want to slightly rephrase that.

 

Owen Hart died because of the nature of pro wrestling (making fun of rival organizations, not being allowed to turn down unwanted angles due to place on the card).

 

Eddy Guerrero died because of the nature of pro wrestling (years of drug abuse in an attempt to fit the body image needed to be a top money-making guy in wrestling).

 

In both cases, there are obviously other factors. Owen's harness wasn't working. Eddy also used recreational drugs at one time and had a devastating car accident in late 1998 that he later called a suicide attempt.

 

But the nature of pro wrestling was definitely a part of the cause for each death.

 

There are really very few cases on that list where you can honestly say that the nature of pro wrestling had absolutely nothing to do with the death.

[JHawk]

Having seen Kennedy on Fox News, I thought he came off about as well as he could have given the fact that he had to tow the company line.

 

While Finlay looked horrible on Nancy Grace, the fact that she immediately pointed out "the list" and essentially saying "They're all wrestlers and that's all that matters" took me completely out of the segment, particularly as it came out right around the time Joey Marella's name came on the screen.

 

Has anybody brought out the list and omitted the guys that died of cancer or car accidents or stuff that isn't possibly drug related yet? That is the list with relevance to the subject (and is likely to be way too high as well but would be far less misleading).

It doesn't really matter the cause of the deaths. Owen Hart would still be alive if he weren't a pro wrestler, whether his death was drug-related or not. He died because of stupid petty wrestling bullshit. Eddy Guerrero died because of stupid petty pro wrestling bullshit. There is a parallel, regardless of the cause of death.

 

Adrian Adonis and Joey Marella died in car accidents. Still a parallel simply because they were in route to a show at the time?

 

John Tenta died of cancer? Still a parallel?

 

Big John Studd died of Hodgkin's Disease. Still a parallel?

 

Wrestling did cause Owen, Eddie, and Pillman's deaths, among others. To say anything else is ridiculous.

 

To say wrestling doesn't cause a lot of premature deaths would be total denial.

 

To say wrestling itself killed over 100 people under age 65 in the last 22 years is just as ignorant a statement as the other two statements would be.

[JHawk]

Apologies to Loss if my comments in the last post seem harsh, as he must have clarified his statement as I was posting. But the point about people making blanket statements about the deaths in wrestling is valid, I think.

[Bix]

Big John Studd died of Hodgkin's Disease. Still a parallel?

His doctor was sure steroid abused caused it.

 

As far as everyone else:

 

When the talking point is often that wrestlers die at whatever faster rate than the general population, you SHOULD include all deaths.

 

------------------------------------

 

Meanwhile...

 

Blah blah blah, you weren't there, nobody dies from steroid abuse, etc...

 

Ted Dibiase On Dave Meltzer Claim, Chris Benoit, Steroids & The WWE

By Ted Dibiase

Jul 13, 2007

The Chris Benoit tragedy has put the WWE, Vince McMahon, steroids and wrestling under a microscope. Dave Meltzer of Wrestling Observer is opinionated and maintains a website where he shares his views. Meltzer has called out Ted Dibiase, suggesting that he's just towing the company line.

 

Dave Meltzer writes: "After writing the past week about how sad it is to see people more concerned with protecting the business, which keeps a deadly status quo, than offering suggestions on how things can improve, we get www.ken-kennedy.com This business divisiveness of people "choosing sides" as opposed to working for improvements is outright pathetic. Not surprising, but sad. When you read this, you'll realize that unless it comes from the outside, nothing will ever change. Every wrestler on top at 30 has this attitude, and when they are on the scrap heap at 45, they have a very different view (unless they have a child wanting a job, in which case they toe the line, as witnessing the complete 180 of Ted DiBiase three years ago and Ted DiBiase today). But I thought the column was very important to read. Some of you will like it if you subscribe to the viewpoint that it's us against them and above all, we have to save our industry no matter what the cost. Some will have a very different idea reading it."

 

Those are some lofty allegations. Ted Dibiase was kind enough to respond to Mr. Meltzer here and on Wrestlingobserver.com.

 

The Million Dollar Man writes:

 

Dave, I need to set a few things straight with you. First of all, my objections to the business (the business that I've known all my life and know much better than you do) three years ago centered on programming. My objection has always been that I think there is too much sex and that there should be more family friendly programming. That hasn't changed.

 

I have been somewhere that nobody else giving an opinion lately has been. I've been on the inside and behind the closed doors. For a year and a half I worked as part of the creative team and also as a "producer". The truth is Dave, that the rock and roll atmosphere that existed 20 years ago is gone. As a talent in the WWE today, you can make anywhere from three hundred thousand to five million dollars a year. That certainly wasn't true 20 years ago. Nobody ever encouraged me to take steroids. Nobody ever told me my job depended on how great my body was. I think many wrestlers put that demand on themselves. I also think there were a few wrestlers that didn't have anything to offer other than a body (they were the greatest abusers) I was expected to stay in good shape and workout regularly. Twenty years ago everybody in every sport turned a blind eye to steroids. I was subject to the drug testing policy that was eventually implemented then and the one today is far greater in its scope that the previous one. The WWE doesn't choose who is tested or who is punished. They are all subject to the same rules.

 

 

My question to you and to all the disgruntled ex-employee's of the WWE is this, "what would you have them do?" I said it in every interview, "WHEN DO WE HOLD THE INDIVIDUAL RESPONSIBLE FOR THEIR ACTIONS?"

 

I nearly lost everything in 1992 because I was out partying and running around. I had the big head and was just too cool. I had to make a conscious decision to change. The choice was mine. It wasn't the WWE's fault that I was caving into the temptations out there. It was my own stupidity. I talk about the 60 or more wrestlers that have died in the last 10 years all the time. Of that 60 how many were really wrestlers who regularly worked in the business and how many were wanna-be's? In either case, 99% died of drug and alcohol related instances, not steroids.

 

The time off now is much better than it was 20 years ago. I laugh at the guys who complain today. They work 4 days a week unless they go on an overseas tour. When I needed time off I asked for it. The company always worked something out with me.

 

If you're making between three hundred thousand and five million and can't fund your own retirement and get great health care, you're either very immature or just plain stupid. Every injury I every got wrestling was taken care of by the company. I've funded my own retirement and done it on a lot less than guys are making now. AGAIN, I MUST BE MATURE ENOUGH TO MAKE GOOD CHOICES. I was 38 years old when the crisis in my life hit. I look back at that now and realize how immature and foolish I was. I didn't start becoming a man until I made a choice to change. But the choice was mine then and it's mine now.

 

I personally think many professional athletes in major sports today and pampered and coddled. They are given everything on a silver platter and it's never enough. Your talent can always take you where your "character" won't sustain you. That was my problem in 1992. It's the problem of many pro athletes today who, in spite of their great talent and big pay checks don't have the character and integrity to go along with it.

 

There is another issue I'd like to cover here. I heard one report about a certain wrestler's wife who was beaten by her husband. I don't condone men ever hitting a woman for any reason. What I take issue with is the suggestion that it is something rampant in wrestling. The suggestion was that most wrestler's wives suffer from abuse by their husbands but that it is a hush hush subject, swept under the rug and just not talked about. This is the most ludicrous thing I've ever heard. This person would have you believe that it is common place in wrestling for men to beat their wives. Again, I grew up in this business. My father never laid a finger on my mother. I've never laid a finger on my wife and don't know of any wrestlers in my 32 years experience that have. Are there isolated cases where this happens? I'm sure there is, just as there is in any other walk of life. But to suggest that most wrestlers are abusive to their wives and children is simply not true.

 

Last but not least, it has been suggested that I am defending the WWE because I have sons who aspire to be wrestlers. Do you really think that I would encourage any of my children to follow me into the wrestling industry if I didn't think it was a much better atmosphere now than when I was there? I can assure you, I would not. The truth is that the industry has changed greatly and for the better. I was impressed by the changes I saw there in the year and a half I was there. Everything constantly changes and evolves. I hope the WWE continues to do so and for the better.

 

Most of the condemning accusations thrown at the WWE as a result of the Benoit tragedy, in my opinion, have come from people who have an ax to grind with the company. As a result, their opinion is never going to be an objective one. I'm all for change where change is necessary. The greatest change that needed to occur in wrestling was in the wrestlers themselves. When you see your friends dropping left and right as a result of drug and alcohol abuse, it's time to wake up and smell the roses. It's time to stop acting like a stupid teenager and grow up. I started growing up when I took the focus of my life off of myself and my selfish desires and put them on my wife and kids. The bible says, "you will reap what you sow." In spite of anything the WWE does or doesn't do, it comes right down to personal choices. Our personal choices will lead us to success or failure, riches or poverty, and life or death. The choice is yours!

 

-- Ted

[Loss]

Your comments weren't too harsh. No worries.

 

My point is that whether the cause was drugs, or a car accident, or something else entirely, the death rate in wrestling is a problem. If WWE (*and* TNA, *and* all other wrestling organizations) are not willing to make suggestions for change, or listen to suggestions for change from the outside, and admit that their approach up until now has been a colossal failure, then wrestling doesn't deserve continued existence. If Vince McMahon can not rid himself of his second-nature desires to make stars out of guys of a certain body type that can't be attained naturally, then he doesn't deserve to continue promoting.

 

WWE is definitely the victim of some unfair criticism from people who don't understand wrestling. No question. But how many times over the years have we seen WWE frame people in a negative light under unfair circumstances, by fabricating stories, taking them out of context or asking pointed questions and only wanting to talk to people who have certain points of view. Look at the way they produce their DVDs.

 

Ted DiBiase is certainly right about one thing -- you do reap what you sow.

 

The only reason some people like Marc Mero are being labeled anti-WWE is because WWE has chosen to make this case of themselves versus the media and the outside world. Anyone who does not agree with every single stance and every single action they are taking is somehow against them, which is only making things worse for them.

 

Wrestling would be much, much better off if it could police itself and control things internally. But the past 15 years have shown that while they have admittedly made improvements, they don't deserve to be trusted to do the right thing, and they don't deserve to get the benefit of the doubt from the media.

[Tim Evans]

Wrestling won't police themselves because wrestling is full of egomanicas that are only out for themselves. Vince only cares about Ratings and makling money. For every one Eddie Guerrero or Brian Pilman, in his mind, there is always 20 more guys in the indy's that are willing to die for Vince Mcmahon and the fame.

[Bix]

Vince only cares about Ratings and makling money.

I wouldn't say ONLY, if just because he's a very strange, complex person.

[Loss]

As I said to Bix last night on AIM, I don't think Vince believes steroids cause any problems, because in his mind, he's done more of them than anyone and he's still alive and feels great at 62 years old.

 

Of course, he tore both of his quads at the same time on a pay-per-view, but let's just forget that ever happened.

[Tim Evans]

You know I was thinking, If there was one man that should represent the WWE one these shows, It's Wiliam Regal. WWE basically saved his life from drugs.

[Bix]

As I said to Bix last night on AIM, I don't think Vince believes steroids cause any problems, because in his mind, he's done more of them than anyone and he's still alive and feels great at 62 years old.

 

Of course, he tore both of his quads at the same time on a pay-per-view, but let's just forget that ever happened.

Also, I'm sure he delegates things to people who know to distort the truth to him. Arn (or whoever) tells Vince that Benoit passed his last drug test and Vince doesn't ask any questions.

[sek69]

I keep hearing Joey Marella used as an example of a wrestling death that shouldn't be on the list, but didn't he fall asleep at the wheel? Wouldn't that suggest either he had to drive a ridiculous distance in a short time or perhaps the other people in the car with him weren't in driving condition? I'd really like to find the WON obit on him because I've always heard there was more to it than just a simple accident but there's no details anywhere I can find on the net.

[sek69]

Found this gem while perusing back issues of the WON, from 1991 when the Zahorian scandal was about to break:

 

 

"It's a miracle this hasn't come out before now" said Jerry "The King" Lawler, a 21-year mat veteran who is a local wrestling legend in Tennessee. "

They (steroids) are obviously a requirement for those (WWF) guys."

 

- WON 7/1/91

[Loss]

Funny. Lawler said recently for the UPN affiliate in Memphis that steroids are extremely rare in wrestling.

[Guest teke184]

Funny. Lawler said recently for the UPN affiliate in Memphis that steroids are extremely rare in wrestling.

Lawler's got a history of saying whatever he thinks will help him personally.

 

 

Apparently, Lawler would go on Memphis TV in the 80s and early 90s talking about how the WWF guys were steroid freaks, homosexuals, etc. in order to knock their product and keep his afloat.

 

That all changed when Vince brought him in as a commentator in 1993, although a lot of the boys didn't particularly like him much.

 

(Depending on who you talk to, anyone between 3 people and the whole locker room filled Lawler's crown with a massive amount of shit on one or more occasions, with the only identified people being Undertaker and Steve Kiern.)

[kjh]

Lawler's got a history of saying whatever he thinks will help him personally.

To be fair, that's true for almost everyone in the industry.

 

I do like how Ted DiBiase asks Dave Meltzer what he would have WWE do, like Dave hasn't been answering that question for the last 15 years. On a similar note I also liked how Ken Kennedy implied that Eddie Guerrero's death was solely due to his drug abuse in WCW like he magically became much more bulkier when he returned to WWE in 2002 than he had ever been before.