The Cancellation of Jim Cornette

[NintendoLogic]

For what it's worth, when Bruce Prichard was with MLW, people who worked there noted that Cornette was way more in touch with modern wrestling and relating to modern wrestlers than Prichard was.

[sek69]

1 hour ago, NintendoLogic said:

For what it's worth, when Bruce Prichard was with MLW, people who worked there noted that Cornette was way more in touch with modern wrestling and relating to modern wrestlers than Prichard was.

That's kind of more damning of Bruce than praising Cornette, especially since we saw him doing a quasi racist angle right out of the 80s last night with Tozawa.

I don't doubt Jim is more in tune with modern wrestling, though. Bruce's only motivation since he first joined the WWF has been do to whatever he can to be Vince's personal hand puppet. 

[Dav'oh]

8 hours ago, WingedEagle said:

He may have his fans...He's undoubtedly relevant to them.  But that's the extent of his relevance.

He's also relevant to this thread and thus to everyone who has posted. He's clearly relevant to his hate-listeners, he's relevant to the news sites, he's relevant to advertisers. He's relevant to impartial listeners who want to hear old-school stories. I'm sure there's others.

 

[El-P]

Flat earthers youtubers are "relevant" to flat earthers. That doesn't make them relevant to the actual world nor to science.

[El-P]

15 hours ago, The Thread Killer said:

AEW might define modern Pro Wrestling but that doesn't mean there aren't a lot of fans who don't like modern Pro Wrestling, though. If nobody agreed with what Jim Cornette says about modern Pro Wrestling...then nobody would listen to him. Cornette would be a crazy old timer ranting and raving and everybody would ignore him (like Superstar Billy Graham, for example.) Jim Cornette is crazy and rants and raves, but people listen. He has a huge fanbase. He's getting that audience because there is a very large number of fans who hate what Pro Wrestling has become.  Cornette reads letters from fans every week who are fans of old school, traditional style Pro Wrestling and don't like the modern stuff.  I think Jim Cornette speaks to those fans, and he speaks for them. 

I understand that. But like I said, that does not mean what Corny has to say is relevant to how things actually work in 2020. I took the exemple of the guys who say hip-hop is not real music, and there are still people to this day who think that way. Are they relevant to pop music culture ? No. Are they relevant to the pop culture industry ? No. Having people agree with something doesn't make it relevant. To me that's not a good argument to establish the relevance of a thought process.

15 hours ago, The Thread Killer said:

To me, relevance can be defined by doing something that people notice and care about. Like him or not, people care about what Jim Cornette says...so I can't see the argument that he isn't relevant.

I see your point. We just don't have the same understanding of the term then.

And to be clear, the fact Corny doesn't work in a pro-wrestling company is not why he isn't relevant to me. I was thinking about Prichard and people have already mentioned him, but there's a real question about whether Brucie is relevant or not in today's landscape. Of course with his status in the biggest company in the world, one might be tempted to say yes, if only because of his power (to say yes to the boss, but still). But really, when you think about it, he probably isn't relevant at all. Don Callis & Scott D'Amore are much more relevant considering the product they are putting out, despite the fact it's under the radar. So it's not really a matter of being inside the industry rather than how they think about it.

15 hours ago, The Thread Killer said:

 I don't agree that he's making a living off hanging onto AEW.

But hey, even if I'm wrong and he is making a living off hating AEW...that actually makes it funny.  If Kenny Omega and The Young Bucks were responsible for Jim Cornette making a living, I'd find that kind of hilarious.  Tony Khan offered Cornette a job, and Cornette didn't want it...and why would he? He can make money from AEW without even having to work for them. That's Pro Wrestling for you.

Of course I was pushing it a bit. Yeah, he's been doing the collectibles for a while now and he was doing well years before he became the official AEW Hater.

The fact remains he is doing more buzz now because of it. And yeah, it's kinda funny (especially if you're Omega or the Bucks, because you're making money even for people who hate you, how's that for being draws ?), and yeah it's carny as fuck.

[Laz]

So Corny pulls 300,000 downloads of his weekly show and isn't relevant, but Impact is on a network where the largest audience isn't even half of that and they are relevant? Corny has the first interview with the hottest new signings to AEW and isn't relevant, but Don Callis struggles to find an audience even 1/5th the size of Corny's and is? It's not even like Impact is offering some cutting edge product that is turning heads and gets people talking, they're just putting on a competent product for the first time in many, many years.

I get it. You don't like Cornette. Hell, I don't even like Cornette. This is some backwards logic, though, considering the audience size for the former dwarfs the latter by a considerable margin, and the former is also seen by a good chunk of the remaining fanbase as a worthwhile voice. Relevance to the industry at large is not determined by personal preference, but by influence.

[WingedEagle]

2 hours ago, El-P said:

Flat earthers youtubers are "relevant" to flat earthers. That doesn't make them relevant to the actual world nor to science.

Amen!  The fact this thread is at 25 pages because someone has a hate porn podcast about wrestling is just incredible to me.  Kudos to him for finding his niche.  It works in sports, news and all other aspects of pop culture so why not wrestling?  Its just not for me.

[El-P]

1 hour ago, Laz said:

So Corny pulls 300,000 downloads of his weekly show and isn't relevant, but Impact is on a network where the largest audience isn't even half of that and they are relevant?

Yes. Because relevance has nothing to do with numbers. For instance, IMPACT probably has the second best woman's roster on the american market today. They get the most out of their roster, in a way that is modern and current. They are employing people, workers there get the opportunity to work, refresh themselves, be creative and improve. Taya Walkyrie coming off her stint in IMPACT is ten times better than she was 5 years before. Tessa Blanchard has demonstrated there how great a worker she is and that she could have great intergender matches. Etc etc.. Yes, they are relevant in today's pro-wrestling landscape. Niche, under the radar, but relevant, yes. 

1 hour ago, Laz said:

Corny has the first interview with the hottest new signings to AEW and isn't relevant,

FTR were on Jericho's podcast weeks ago. Corny only gets them when they showed up in the promotion he hates watch. 

1 hour ago, Laz said:

I get it. You don't like Cornette.

I was a fan of Cornette forever and have defended him for years when it wasn't "fashionable". The fact I like him or not in this argument is, well, irrelevant. We're talking about his though process and what he is doing today. Which, is, by all means, totally irrelevant to the current pro-wrestling landscape. Case in point, a large part of his audience, the new part at least, is exactly what ? People who don't watch or hate watch (the stupidest thing ever BTW) pro-wrestling in 2020. So yeah. IRRELEVANCE.

36 minutes ago, WingedEagle said:

Amen!  The fact this thread is at 25 pages because someone has a hate porn podcast about wrestling is just incredible to me.  Kudos to him for finding his niche.  It works in sports, news and all other aspects of pop culture so why not wrestling?  Its just not for me.

Negative feelings and emotions are always more easier to channel. And they don't take much thought either. But yeah, it's incredible to me too, although I'm partly responsible by taking part in the same argument over and over again. Yeah. Corny has become a troll. He's Trump, right. And that's sad.

[Laz]

So putting out a product nobody watches is more important than putting out a product a sizable portion of the audience listens to? Good to know. Numbers and audience size are absolutely relevant when it pertains to a business whose primary focal point is about attracting an audience. 

[El-P]

Except "nobody watches" is just wrong. And yeah, IMPACT is an actual pro-wrestling promotion who does employ people and allows them to make a living and improve. Hell, they fucking SIGNED people during the pandemic. I guess some people are really dumb wanting to work for a promotion no one watches instead of doing hate-watch podcast...

Meanwhile, Cornette may draw an audience, but that audience is irrelevant to current pro-wrestling. 

Corny : "Omega and the Bucks suck !"

Audience : "Yeah they suck !"

Current pro-wrestling scene : "Don't watch it then."

Corny & audience "BUT THEY SUCK !"

Current pro-wrestling scene : "So don't watch it."

Corny : "Yes ! Because it sucks ! Listen to my podcast !"

Audience "YES ! They suck !"

Current pro-wrestling scene : "So why bother watching it ?"

Corny & audience "BECAUSE THEY SUCK !"

Current pro-wrestling scene :"Ok. We have a show to put on."

Corny : "YEAH ! And I'll watch it and tell people it SUCKS because Omega & the Bucks are killing the business !"

Audience "YEAH ! We'll listen tell us it sucks !"

Current pro-wrestling scene : "Ok. Do whatever you have to do."

Corny : "No really YOU SUCK CURRENT PRO-WRESTLING ! I HATE WATCHING IT !"

Audience "Yeah ! Can't wait until Corny reviews the next show because it sucks and it's killing the business !"

Current pro-wrestling scene : "You're hurting yourselves..."

Corny "NO ! YOU'RE KILLING THE BUSINESS ! I won't watch you again !"

Audience "YEAH ! Tell us you won't watch again ! Because it SUCKS !"

Current pro-wrestling scene : "Ok, cool."

Corny : "BUT YOU STILL SUCK ! I'll watch one last show because you really suck !"

Audience : "YEAH IT DOES ! Current pro-wrestling sucks !"

Relevancy...

[The Thread Killer]

6 hours ago, Laz said:

So Corny pulls 300,000 downloads of his weekly show and isn't relevant, but Impact is on a network where the largest audience isn't even half of that and they are relevant?

Not to mention, Impact wouldn't even have any audience at all, if their parent company didn't literally buy an entire TV network in order to keep them on the air. Interest in Impact was so low they couldn't get a TV deal, anywhere.  They were pretty much dead in the water until Anthem bought AXS.  That doesn't exactly scream "relevance" to me.

[The Thread Killer]

This is an interesting argument, and I can see what @El-P and others are saying when they claim Jim Cornette is not relevant to modern Pro Wrestling.  As El-P said, it may just be a matter of semantics, in that we don't share the same definition of the word "relevant" or what the term encapsulates.  By my understanding relevance is defined as "being important to or having a significant bearing on the matter at hand."

I think we could agree that the "matter at hand" is Professional Wrestling. Is Jim Cornette historically important to Pro Wrestling? Absolutely.  Is he important to Pro Wrestling in 2020?  Debatable. Once again, how can you actually determine that?  He's clearly popular. Does his popularity automatically mean that he's important to Professional Wrestling in 2020?  I would argue that it does.  He's clearly important to at least 300,000 people every week. I would argue that it is the exact things that modern fans claim make him irrelevant which have ironically made him relevant. Like @WingedEagle pointed out, this thread has 25 pages.  Hell, go on Twitter and enter his name in the search bar. You'd be deluged with opinions on Jim Cornette, both for him and against him.  I just can't see the logic in the argument that somebody who has such a large fanbase and illicits such a passionate response from fans (both positive and negative) is irrelevant.

Conversely, if you want to make the argument that Jim Cornette has no bearing on the direction of Professional Wrestling in 2020, I would willingly concede that argument.  But as I said earlier, that isn't honestly the point.  You can't honestly use that as a way to dismiss him, or as an insult. Cornette's alienation from the modern product was his choice. When Tony Khan decided to start his own Professional Wrestling company, one of the first people he wanted to hire as a consultant was Jim Cornette.  Cornette consulted with Khan, heard the direction AEW was going and declined to be involved. Cornette's lack of involvement in modern Pro Wrestling wasn't forced on him.  Cornette has frequently discussed how he made the decision to stop taking bookings and jobs in the industry because he was unhappy with the direction it was headed.  He has stated that he made the decision to stop trying to fit into the modern Pro Wrestling scene, and start speaking his mind. Jim Cornette has disavowed the modern product.  He does not want to be associated with it because he doesn't support it.  He has stopped being an active participant in Professional Wrestling and has become a critic of Pro Wrestling. But I don't think you can throw the "relevancy" argument at a critic.

Honestly, I think it's foolish to hang that tag on him.  There are a lot of unflattering things you could say about Jim Cornette, and you'd be totally right. If you want to say Jim Cornette is out of touch?  I agree with you.  Are a lot of his ideas obsolete, impractical and badly outdated?  Absolutely.  But he's a critic with a large audience and I don't think he's irrelevant. You can disagree with him, but I don't think you can just brush him off by saying he isn't important and nobody cares what he thinks.  That clearly isn't true.

[sek69]

To be fair, Impact''s issues had a lot to do with Dixie getting publicly outed badmouthing Spike execs while lying to them about bringing back Russo.  She made the company radioactive for any other TV station even after she "left" (she technically still owns like 5% of the company I believe) and none of them would touch Impact with a ten foot pole. 

Callis and company had to climb an Everest-sized mountain just to get back to ground level, I don't envy the position they were in. 

[El-P]

12 minutes ago, The Thread Killer said:

I think we could agree that the "matter at hand" is Professional Wrestling. Is Jim Cornette historically important to Pro Wrestling? Absolutely. 

Of course. One of the best manager ever (#1 or #2 with Heenan). One of the best promo ever (to this day). Interesting promoter. Was instrumental in training/building the last batch of stars the WWE ever produced in the early 00's (Cena, Batista, Lesnar...). Great historian too.

12 minutes ago, The Thread Killer said:

If you want to say Jim Cornette is out of touch?  I agree with you.  Are a lot of his ideas obsolete, impractical and badly outdated?  Absolutely.  But he's a critic with a large audience and I don't think he's irrelevant. You can disagree with him, but I don't think you can just brush him off by saying he isn't important and nobody cares what he thinks.  That clearly isn't true.

I can see your point although I don't agree on the "relevancy" point, but like you said, I think we have a semantic disagreement here too.

Maybe part of why I find this so pathetic is that if he had a more open mind, we could see Jim Cornette managing FTR in AEW and cutting awesome promos and get more heel heat than he ever got before. And have fun doing it. And all would be the best in all of the best possible pro-wrestling world, as I had been a Corny fan forever until, well, the last few months, where he got totally out of reach of being defensible for me.

[The Thread Killer]

3 minutes ago, sek69 said:

To be fair, Impact''s issues had a lot to do with Dixie getting publicly outed badmouthing Spike execs while lying to them about bringing back Russo.  She made the company radioactive for any other TV station even after she "left" (she technically still owns like 5% of the company I believe) and none of them would touch Impact with a ten foot pole. 

Callis and company had to climb an Everest-sized mountain just to get back to ground level, I don't envy the position they were in. 

I don't disagree with you.  I've heard Billy Corgan say that if he had succeeded in buying TNA he would have basically dismantle TNA/Impact and do a total rebuild. What Corgan really wanted was the TV deal, the TV production equipment and staff, and a good chunk of the wrestlers who were under contract. If Anthem made a mistake, it was in not distancing themselves further from TNA. TNA actually put out a lot of quality stuff when they were in existence, but Dixie Carter and Vince Russo managed to pollute the brand so badly that it was basically toxic by the time they were done.  I don't know anybody who could have saved that mess.  You're right, Anthem basically had two strikes against them from the get go.

[SomethingSavage]

Relevant or not, Cornette is still a great storyteller and a crazy entertaining personality. Does he swing too wide with some of his comments & criticisms? Sure. But that's just his nature. The guy has always been a human hand grenade of rage. It's all part of the charm. You generally know what you're going to get from him.

I'd still rather listen to Cornette talk about ANYTHING than just about 90% of modern promos or interviews. Jim can pause to cough or clear his throat and STILL be more entertaining than any Seth Rollins match or segment I've seen since the Shield split. Legitimately.

But hey. I'm a proud Corny stan. Idgaf if he's "relevant" to today's scene or not, because that's not actually relevant to his appeal in the first place.

Furthermore, if he is irrelevant, it's sort of sad - since I find him to consistently be a better judge of talent and potential than guys in ACTUAL key, relevant positions within the business.

If you look at Corny from a broad, wider lens? Then yes. He comes across as a grumpy, irritated old man just shaking his fist and yelling at clouds. But if you listen and follow, then you'll hear fascinating analysis and breakdowns on what certain performers DO deserve credit, DO get over with audiences, etc.

Is it out of touch because he knows it's more important to emphasize drama and story over gratuitous apron bumps and endless thigh slaps?

Is it out of touch because he knows comedy relief works best in wrestling when it's used for RELIEF? It's not relief if it's 75% comedy and 25% drama or action. That's actually the inverse. Your comedy is no longer relief. It's your product. The drama and the action is then the only relief.

I could go on and on. But I feel like I'm absolutely always the odd man out in these Corny discussions. So meh.

In closing, you're all wrong. Corny is the GOAT. Kenny Omega is the Carrot Top of professional wrestling. And it's too bad Seth won't be taking maternity leave for 9 months, too.

[The Thread Killer]

1 hour ago, SomethingSavage said:

I feel like I'm absolutely always the odd man out in these Corny discussions. So meh.

[C.S.]

On 6/16/2020 at 7:58 AM, Laz said:

Impact is on a network where the largest audience isn't even half of that and they are relevant?  

Impact isn't relevant. Not at all. May be a good product. May be fun to watch. All of that is well and good, but nothing it does matters and nothing it does affects or influences the wrestling business at large. Those days are gone, probably forever.

The fact that the openly racist Tessa Blanchard is champion, and absolutely no one cares - in this climate! - tells you all you need to know about Impact's *ahem* impact.

On 6/16/2020 at 8:25 AM, WingedEagle said:

Amen!  The fact this thread is at 25 pages because someone has a hate porn podcast about wrestling is just incredible to me.  Kudos to him for finding his niche.  It works in sports, news and all other aspects of pop culture so why not wrestling?  Its just not for me.

More than half of this thread has nothing to do with his podcast whatsoever though. I've never even listened to it, and I likely never will.

[El-P]

58 minutes ago, C.S. said:

The fact that the openly racist Tessa Blanchard is champion, and absolutely no one cares - in this climate! - tells you all you need to know about 

If you're talking about actual registered sources, you've got the wrong person, that would be Charlotte Flair. So, wrong company too. 

[C.S.]

47 minutes ago, El-P said:

If you're talking about actual registered sources, you've got the wrong person, that would be Charlotte Flair. So, wrong company too. 

You must have missed the tweetstorm from wrestlers going on the record about Tessa's n-bomb usage a few months ago. No shock there, as nothing about Impact is considered relevant and newsworthy. Like I said, Impact may have good wrestlers, may be a fun show, but it absolutely does not matter and does not influence anything in the grand scheme of things. Not anymore, anyway. That ship finally burned to the ground for the final time when Matt Hardy and Billy Corbin were driven out of the company.

What did Charlotte say? Whatever it is, it will come back to bite WWE in the ass hard when a Dana Brooke type finally gets tired of being "held back" and blames protected wrestlers like "The Queen" for her plight. 

[El-P]

13 minutes ago, C.S. said:

You must have missed the tweetstorm from wrestlers going on the record about Tessa's n-bomb usage a few months ago.

No. And really, all I saw was a bunch of Twitter "back then she said". May very well be true, but in the meantime :

13 minutes ago, C.S. said:

What did Charlotte say?

The same thing, allegedly. Wait, no, not allegedly in her case, I believe there's an actual police report because she said that to a police officer, if I remember correctly. And now one cares. So there...

Both are dating mexicans, so it's ok...

13 minutes ago, C.S. said:

Like I said, Impact may have good wrestlers, may be a fun show, but it absolutely does not matter and does not influence anything in the grand scheme of things.

Not "grand scheme of things", but they don't need to (and they never have been their anyway, although everytime a major guy from TNA showed up on NXT or WWE, he got the major pop because hardcore fans know about them). Their product is relevant to pro-wrestling in 2020. Ortiz & Santana came to AEW right off their great stint in IMPACT. Brian Cage came to AEW right off his main event run in IMPACT, and has been put straight into a world title spot because people know he can carry that kind of spot (he wasn't quite there in Lucha Underground). People have signed with them *during the pandemic*, which means they actually give workers JOBS during a time you barely could work elsewhere. They have the more complete women's division this side of WWE. So yeah. On their very small, under-the-radar scale, they are way more relevant to the pro-wrestling industry than a wide number of idiot sycophants jerking off listening to an old out of touch man hate watching a product he doesn't understand anymore. 

[SomethingSavage]

19 hours ago, The Thread Killer said:

My bad, brutha. You're doing all the heavy lifting for Corny's defense. You're here for all the weekly TVs and the spot shows. I just pass through once in awhile for the occasional one-off. 

[C.S.]

1 hour ago, El-P said:

I believe there's an actual police report because she [Charlotte] said that to a police officer, if I remember correctly. And now one cares. So there...

All it takes is one prominent tweet and suddenly everyone will care. Then more stories of her racism (and her dad's racism) will surface.

1 hour ago, El-P said:

Not "grand scheme of things", but they don't need to (and they never have been their anyway, although everytime a major guy from TNA showed up on NXT or WWE, he got the major pop because hardcore fans know about them). Their product is relevant to pro-wrestling in 2020. Ortiz & Santana came to AEW right off their great stint in IMPACT. Brian Cage came to AEW right off his main event run in IMPACT, and has been put straight into a world title spot because people know he can carry that kind of spot (he wasn't quite there in Lucha Underground). People have signed with them *during the pandemic*, which means they actually give workers JOBS during a time you barely could work elsewhere. They have the more complete women's division this side of WWE. So yeah. On their very small, under-the-radar scale, they are way more relevant to the pro-wrestling industry than a wide number of idiot sycophants jerking off listening to an old out of touch man hate watching a product he doesn't understand anymore. 

Can't argue with any of this!

[sek69]

Tessa had several people confirming reports of what she said, and the person it was said to even came forward and confirmed it. Not to mention it brought out others to share other stories of her being an asshole to people (just not necessarily a racist one). It wasn't just some mentions of a long ago incident. 

 

[C.S.]

So, anyone else already feeling nostalgic for the criticisms of Cornette in this thread, which already seem so minor in comparison?