Cap Posted June 17, 2021 Report Share Posted June 17, 2021 Two greats who's cases will be built quite differently. So... as these things go.... Who You Got? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimmas Posted June 17, 2021 Report Share Posted June 17, 2021 Any shoot worker vs any non shoot worker means the non shoot worker wins for me. Put it against Negro Casas who is challenging for #1 on the list, then it's not even a second thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elliott Posted June 17, 2021 Report Share Posted June 17, 2021 I went with Tamura. Casas is a guy who I totally understand as a #1 contender and he's someone that I think is clearly one of the all time great wrestlers, but there's just somethign missing for me. I've never been able to figure it out. He's never connected with me like when I watch other people Ithink are all time greats. Its sort of like that DylanWaco-Jumbo Tsuruta thing, but I don't like actively dislike Casas. Its something I can't really explain. So anyway I went with Tamura because I feel the complete opposite about him. There are very few people I've enjoyed watching wrestle more than Kiyoshi Tamura. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Childs Posted June 17, 2021 Report Share Posted June 17, 2021 1 minute ago, elliott said: I went with Tamura. Casas is a guy who I totally understand as a #1 contender and he's someone that I think is clearly one of the all time great wrestlers, but there's just somethign missing for me. I've never been able to figure it out. He's never connected with me like when I watch other people Ithink are all time greats. Its sort of like that DylanWaco-Jumbo Tsuruta thing, but I don't like actively dislike Casas. Its something I can't really explain. So anyway I went with Tamura because I feel the complete opposite about him. There are very few people I've enjoyed watching wrestle more than Kiyoshi Tamura. Ditto. I've never vibed with Casas as an elite worker, while Tamura might be the best ever at a style I love. So it's an easy call for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boss Rock Posted June 17, 2021 Report Share Posted June 17, 2021 Serious question from someone who hasn't really been able to get into shoot style: what separates Tamura from his contemporaries working that style? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tetsujin Posted June 17, 2021 Report Share Posted June 17, 2021 He's like the Kobashi of the style. So passionate, able to bring drama better than any other shoot wrestler, and he has a perfect balance between matwork and striking, while most of the other guys I've watched tend to focus more on one of the two. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted June 17, 2021 Report Share Posted June 17, 2021 This is tricky. Casas is in a lot of crappy matches, and there are periods where he's given nothing to do and languishes in random matches because of lucha's weak ass booking. The argument used to be that he was brilliant even in those matches, but I'm not so sure. Given him a program and he's an all-timer. That '92-93 period after he'd jumped from UWA to CMLL was the absolute peak of his genius. It was as though he was hellbent on making Arena Mexico his house. I also like the way he changed his style later on after working in Japan. I have a lot of respect for the way he was able to adapt and stay relevant as he got older. That's basically what I'm witnessing now as I watch his work with Ultimo Guerrero and Rey Bucanero. Tamura, on the other hand, basically worked one match a month and essentially spent the rest of the time training. It was kind of a sink or swim scenario as to whether the match was any good, but even in a match against a bad opponent, or a guy who wasn't great doing a work, he still gets to flash some technique and the selling point is that it's an actual fight, and Tamura looks great if he wins. So that's probably an advantage over being stuck in random trios matches. Casas' genius vs. Tamura's athleticism and technique... You could make a case for Casas being the best luchador of all-time and Tamura being the best Japanese wrestler of all-time. Lucha vs. shoot style. This is really tough. These are basically the two types of wrestlers I like -- the genius performer vs. the skilled wrestler. I will go with Casas because he probably had more all-round ability. Tamura may have been great at pro-style, but we'll never know because of his career path. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elliott Posted June 17, 2021 Report Share Posted June 17, 2021 7 minutes ago, Boss Rock said: Serious question from someone who hasn't really been able to get into shoot style: what separates Tamura from his contemporaries working that style? Ignore Volk Han because he's sort of his own unique beast. But comparing Tamura to his other contemporaries, he's an absolute athletic marvel. Over the years when you see threads pop up "Who is the best athlete in wrestling" my first thought is always Kiyoshi Tamura. Now you might say being a great athlete isn't important to being a great wrestler, but when you're a shoot style worker, its important to be a great athlete because the goal of shoot style was to look more like a sport. It also means his movements are smoother, his counters are faster, his lunges to the ropes for rope breaks are faster, his strikes are quicker and thrown with more precision. He has better stamina which means for less resting and rope breaks and more organic grappling and counters. How many other people could have pulled off that first 10minutes of Tamura vs Kohaska where they're just going hard at each other on the mat exchaning holds and never going for rope breaks? In addition to his otherwordly athleticism, I think it comes across that Tamura is a fucking workhorse. He's never sleepwalking through matches out there, hes always busting his ass so you'll get something worthwhile just about every time and he never really has the "lay around in a leg lock for 3 straight minutes" issue that is more likely to crop up in a Takada or Maeda match. So you've got a situation where the most athletic and technically proficient performer is also the hardest worker. Sort of a Michael Jordan situation. He also has quite a large amount of great matches over a decade plus against a variety of opponents. Without looking at the Tamura thread I did, I can think of great matches against Volk Han, Kohsaka, Yoshihisa Yamamoto, Yoji Anjoh, Masahito Kakihara, Hiroyuki Ito, Josh Barnett, Dokonjonsuke Mishima, Vader, Nikolai Zouev, Andrei Kopilov, Kazuo Yamazaki, Nobuhako Takada, Gary Albright, Mikhail Ilioukhine, and I'm sure there are others I'm forgetting because I almost forgot about Ilioukhine and that's one of Tamura's best matches. I really like Kazuo Yamazaki for example, and I will have a place for him on my list but I couldn't point to legitimately great Yamazaki matches against that many opponents. Shoot style is such a limited style as far as what you can do and the goals so simply having the most polished technique, being the fastest striker, the best athlete and the hardest worker are enough to put you at the time. Tamura is also super charismatic in his way, has an interesting career arc while working at a consistently high level from an early age. He was an incredible seller and understood how to build exciting and dramatic matches even within his narrow style. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cap Posted June 18, 2021 Author Report Share Posted June 18, 2021 13 hours ago, Boss Rock said: Serious question from someone who hasn't really been able to get into shoot style: what separates Tamura from his contemporaries working that style? I discussed this with sleeze on his podcast. The thing that is most impressive about shoot is how they can remain tight and fluid in their grappling without hurting one another. It is similar to "flow rolling" in bjj. Now, I am shitty at jits, but it is so hard to cooperatively grapple quickly, especially on the fly. Even watching great grapplers flow roll you can see that moving that fast and making your grappling look really convincing is tough. You can see it when you watch even m mediocre shoot matches and you know well and good that the wrestlers have grappling chops. Shoot match wrestling is just a unique skill unto itself. Tamura even stands out amongst his peers. He almost NEVER looks choppy or clunky, even against very limited grapplers (such as Vader). As other said, he is an athletic freak. I can't imagine how physically and (even more so) mentally quick he would need to be to do what he did. I went with Tamura on this. Casas is a guy I sort of go back and forth on. I always recognize him as elite, but more often than not I am not motivated to go seek out Casas matches much anymore. That is more a taste/mood thing than a statement on his quality of work of course, but I am slightly lower on him than his biggest fans. Tamura excels at one of my favorite styles of wrestling, one that really resonates with me as boiled down and concentrated version of what I love from my in-ring wrestling. OJ outlined some of the trickiness (and I think the utility) of making such a comparison. This is close enough to me that it could flip by vote time, but for now I am going with Tamura for being just an other wordly physical story teller. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soup23 Posted June 18, 2021 Report Share Posted June 18, 2021 Tough choice and I love the analysis that OJ brought here. I agree that Tamura really utilized the sink or swim approach. Of the stuff we have on tape, I think he performs best of all workers that have this tendency. Casas certainly excels when given stuff to do but when not, he certainly isn’t above just being there and hanging out. I think the notion that he is a Funk like candidate that has longevity and was always interesting is way overblown. Still the man has a 5 star match from me in 1987 and 4.75 match in 2012. Tough call but I’m leaning Tamura today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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