2021 Wrestling Observer Hall of Fame

[El-P]

The consensus is that Kazuchika Okada may very well be the greatest wrestler ever. That's why.

Also, Meltz actually said Don Owen was not a bad choice and that longevity actually was the reason why.

[El McKell]

1 hour ago, ohtani's jacket said:

 Apparently, Bushiroad took New Japan out of insolvency and is generating more revenue than the late 90s, though where these revenue streams come from, I'm not sure, as live attendance still isn't as high as it was in the 90s. Clearly the management has been good, and it was wrong of me to say that business is mediocre.

The extra revenue streams are NJPW world, much more merchandise (all those stupid rainmaker towels & Naito stuffed bears you'd see loads of fans with), higher ticket prices for shows and licencing their intellectual property for dumb mobile games.

But yeah, Okada would have got in even without NJPW doing good business because as El-P says Okada is viewed by many people as among the best in-ring performers of all time.

 

[funkdoc]

On 1/20/2022 at 3:02 AM, ohtani's jacket said:

I've been in Japan throughout the period we're talking about. I'm not glued to the TV every night, I'll admit, but I still find it hard to see the footprint you're talking about. I'm sure you can find it if you look for it, but it isn't an inescapable presence in daily life. Apparently, Bushiroad took New Japan out of insolvency and is generating more revenue than the late 90s, though where these revenue streams come from, I'm not sure, as live attendance still isn't as high as it was in the 90s. Clearly the management has been good, and it was wrong of me to say that business is mediocre. I still think it's crazy that he got close to a unanimous vote, but I guess the success that New Japan has had in the 2010s is important to voters. 

Trying not to be too dismissive "OK, boomer" here, but this reminds me of how whenever the biggest hits of the year in music come up, everyone i know in their 40s or 50s will say they've never heard of Post Malone or Ariana Grande.  It's easy to stay in a bubble with people closer to your age and have no idea what cultural presence looks like for people in their teens or 20s.

NJPW does very well with social media, in addition to what El said above, and that's an area that especially ties into my point since it happens more on platforms that skew younger (e.g. Twitter) as opposed to Facebook.

[kas]

What do you guys think of Naito's chances of getting in? He has a rep as a great worker - though not to the level of Okada - and he's probably the most popular wrestler from Japan since the 90s. Either him or Tanahashi at least.

[El-P]

Yeah, Naito gets in. Great worker, was a huge merchandise mover at one point. No way he doesn't get in.

[ohtani's jacket]

8 hours ago, funkdoc said:

Trying not to be too dismissive "OK, boomer" here, but this reminds me of how whenever the biggest hits of the year in music come up, everyone i know in their 40s or 50s will say they've never heard of Post Malone or Ariana Grande.  It's easy to stay in a bubble with people closer to your age and have no idea what cultural presence looks like for people in their teens or 20s.

NJPW does very well with social media, in addition to what El said above, and that's an area that especially ties into my point since it happens more on platforms that skew younger (e.g. Twitter) as opposed to Facebook.

I know who Post Malone and Ariana Grande are because I hear their music in my every day life, and I hear people talking about them. Japan is a country that still uses a lot of print media, still has print advertising everywhere, and still has a huge nefwork television influence. It's great that New Japan is doing well with social media, but that doesn't mean it's having a real world effect. 

[ethantyler]

On 1/20/2022 at 11:25 AM, El-P said:

Also, Meltz actually said Don Owen was not a bad choice and that longevity actually was the reason why.

Dave was just being nice. When I said on the F4W board that Owen was factually the weakest promoter in the Hall and that he set a precedent for rewarding long-lasting mediocrity, Dave was one of the first guys to agree with me explicitly. It's in the HOF thread. He knows. But, hey, the guy got 60%. Dave isn't pissing into the wind on this - like I am. 

He's also currently involved in a long-lasting conversation about how to get deserving pre-1970 promoters inducted into the HOF as soon as possible (read the latest newsletter). Guys like Lou Daro, Johnny Doyle, Morris Sigel, etc. It doesn't take a genius to read between the lines and figure out what triggered this conversation. 

[sek69]

Yeah once someone's been elected in his mind that's it even if he personally might not agree. You can always tell when that's the case when he's asked about a marginal candidate and his response is "hey they got the votes so apparently enough people thought *X* was HOF worthy"

[DylanZero]

RE: Okada - I have many friends in Japan in wrestling and those who are outside of wrestling, and I can say in my experience if they aren't in wrestling they have literally 0 clue as to what NJPW is, letalone Okada or any single wrestler. One person knew Saya Kamitani since she was familiar with her idol group. Most people know who Inoki is if I bring him up but nothing in depth about his wrestling. Even in America if I talk to a random 20 something girl they know what WWE is, in Japan NJPW seems to be WAY down the totem pole of real world popularity, and I am not claiming to be an expert on Japanese culture but I think OJ is getting a bit misunderstood here. Okada can't compare to people in the past in terms of popularity for all sorts of reasons.

 

I really don't mind him getting in mind you, but getting more votes than the people he has I can see why that might rub some people the wrong way. I don't understand how anyone could think he is better than Hashimoto who got 15% less than him, and from a star perspective Austin runs about 100 laps around him. I think my problem is even talking about this guy in the HOF in the first place. 35 being the age of getting in is completely absurd. Didn't we learn anything from Nakamura? Someone who got overrated spectacularly at a specific moment in time based on having a few big matches at the right place and time. Nakamura would never get in if he were put on the ballot now. Okada's legacy may very well be this huge thing that lives for 30 years like Hashimoto or Jumbo or whoever, but he could just as easily not deliver and drag his legacy down. Same with all these other guys whose story is half or less empty. That said, this being the WON HOF I think he belongs in the canon of it so much that it's hard to imagine him not getting in. I just feel like it wouldn't hurt to let people have more perspective either.

[Loss]

Dave was actually bothered by Okada not getting 100% of the vote. He claimed every reason to vote no that he'd heard from anyone had amounted to strategic voting. He had harsh words for strategic voters, claiming that they are being manipulative and dishonest, have no business voting and are attempting to rig the system.

Bryan disagreed, saying that if someone has one vote left and has to choose between Okada and someone they're worried will fall off the next year, maybe they'll try to at least keep their other pick on the ballot. Dave said that entire way of thinking is wrong and that voting should be based solely on who the best candidates are.

[sek69]

I mean he checks all the boxes Dave asks for. Is he a draw and has he been one for an extended period of time? Yes. Is he considered one of the top workers? Yes. Even if you want to argue the age thing, he would be the one guy I would think is the exception since his body of work is such that it's really hard to  come up with a reason to not vote for him that makes sense.

[NintendoLogic]

It may be true that Okada is nothing compared to the 90s stars in terms of broader popularity, but it's also true that the 90s stars were nothing compared to the stars of the 70s and 80s in that regard. Ditch once wrote that the difference between Antonio Inoki and Shinya Hashimoto in the popular consciousness was like the difference between Hulk Hogan and Randy Orton even though Hashimoto headlined more sold-out stadium shows than any wrestler in history. Wrestlers can only be fairly evaluated against what they could be realistically expected to accomplish, and the fact that Okada helped take New Japan to heights that would have been unimaginable a decade ago is surely a feather in his cap. Of course, in-ring work is also a major factor in his candidacy, and if you think he's a bum who couldn't work his way out of a paper bag, there's likely no argument that could convince you that he's a worthy Hall of Famer. But it should go without saying that most WON HOF voters don't see it that way.

In other news, the current Observer notes that Don Owen was apparently virulently anti-Semitic according to Dean Silverstone's book. You can question the appropriateness of a morals clause for a pro wrestling Hall of Fame, but there's a good chance that would have tipped the scales in the other direction had it been more widely known given how close the vote was. The discovery that Mr. Wrestling II was involved in a gang rape in his youth was clearly a factor in him falling off the ballot.

[DylanZero]

1 hour ago, Loss said:

Dave was actually bothered by Okada not getting 100% of the vote. He claimed every reason to vote no that he'd heard from anyone had amounted to strategic voting. He had harsh words for strategic voters, claiming that they are being manipulative and dishonest, have no business voting and are attempting to rig the system.

Bryan disagreed, saying that if someone has one vote left and has to choose between Okada and someone they're worried will fall off the next year, maybe they'll try to at least keep their other pick on the ballot. Dave said that entire way of thinking is wrong and that voting should be based solely on who the best candidates are.

I feel like there's arguments for both sides but I would probably side with Dave at the end of a pure ballot being for the best, although obviously I disagree with him on the 100% thing. Also I think most people would probably agree with Dave. Even in our own GWE vote how many people had fun, but unrealistic votes at number 100 just to get guys on.

1 hour ago, sek69 said:

I mean he checks all the boxes Dave asks for. Is he a draw and has he been one for an extended period of time? Yes. Is he considered one of the top workers? Yes. Even if you want to argue the age thing, he would be the one guy I would think is the exception since his body of work is such that it's really hard to  come up with a reason to not vote for him that makes sense.

I can see that. Like I said, I don't think it's egregious in the HOF lore at all or anything like that, I just wish we were allowed to wait and have perspective than judge in real time which doesn't seem right or used by any other HOF to my knowledge.

1 hour ago, NintendoLogic said:

It may be true that Okada is nothing compared to the 90s stars in terms of broader popularity, but it's also true that the 90s stars were nothing compared to the stars of the 70s and 80s in that regard. Ditch once wrote that the difference between Antonio Inoki and Shinya Hashimoto in the popular consciousness was like the difference between Hulk Hogan and Randy Orton even though Hashimoto headlined more sold-out stadium shows than any wrestler in history. Wrestlers can only be fairly evaluated against what they could be realistically expected to accomplish, and the fact that Okada helped take New Japan to heights that would have been unimaginable a decade ago is surely a feather in his cap. Of course, in-ring work is also a major factor in his candidacy, and if you think he's a bum who couldn't work his way out of a paper bag, there's likely no argument that could convince you that he's a worthy Hall of Famer. But it should go without saying that most WON HOF voters don't see it that way.

In other news, the current Observer notes that Don Owen was apparently virulently anti-Semitic according to Dean Silverstone's book. You can question the appropriateness of a morals clause for a pro wrestling Hall of Fame, but there's a good chance that would have tipped the scales in the other direction had it been more widely known given how close the vote was. The discovery that Mr. Wrestling II was involved in a gang rape in his youth was clearly a factor in him falling off the ballot.

Inoki is at the top of the mountain all time, no question about that.

 

I don't think he's a bum, but just don't think he's as great as most people. If anything Kidani falling off was the real injustice a million times more than Okada getting in. Without him nobody knows about Okada or any of the other NJPW candidates in the first place and as has been mentioned in this thread, his merchandising abilities are what have taken NJPW to the next level as a business more than a singular performer. Also worth mentioning by most metrics of popularity Naito is actually higher than Okada and has been for most of the 5 years? And I think Okada's a better worker than Naito saying this. I totally get Okada getting into the Hall. I just wish we had some perspective on his career as I feel narratives are much stronger in real time and we've seen that play out before.

 

Sad to know Owen felt that way. The morals clause in wrestling seems like you're asking to be stuck in a neverending wheel of hypocrisy with all the people already in the HOF as is, but I do agree with your statement that it would have flipped things the other way. To me Wrestling II is a HOFer by wrestling status, but the voters not backing him signals that people are trying to clean things up as much as they realistically can.

[sek69]

Dave putting it up for vote on whether or not to expel Chris Benoit (and the resulting vote to not do so) pretty much closes the book on the idea of a morals clause for a wrestling HOF.

There's always going to be people who should be in who won't get votes because their transgressions are known beforehand. Bonds and Clemens are probably the greatest hitter and ptcher in baseball history respectively, but neither have a chance of getting in the baseball HOF because both were unrepentant assholes to the media who vote on it (and you better believe that's the reason why, steroids just make for a convenient cover story). 

[ohtani's jacket]

For the record, I’m not against Okada being in the HOF. I just think being close to a unanimous pick is overstating his place in history. Unless I’m reading it wrong and he was supposed to be a unanimous pick based on the ballot. 

[NintendoLogic]

You have to remember that it's not an up-or-down vote on each candidate but a determination of the ten strongest candidates in any given year, so percentages are as much a reflection of who someone shares the ballot with as their intrinsic merit. Okada benefited from the fact that all the really strong candidates are already in. Even if he had gone in unanimously, Kobashi's percentage would still be more impressive in my book because he was on the ballot with the likes of Manami Toyota, Aja Kong, Shawn Michaels, Chris Benoit, and the Midnight Express.