Is the empire crumbling before our eyes?

[Flyin' Brian]

29 minutes ago, Jmare007 said:

To be fair, thinking AEW was going to legit challenge WWE would always end up in disappointment. I don't think that was ever the goal of the promotion anyway so not sure were that narrative is coming from.

Tony seemed to feed that. He made sure to gloat over beating NXT Tuesday night. At this point though, is that really an accomplishment? 

[Flyin' Brian]

55 minutes ago, Lukeless said:

All of AEW's ppvs since Revolution 2021 have gotten over 100,000 ppv buys while TNA topped out at about 60,000.  Already much more successful than TNA was.

I was more talking about longevity. They may stick around for a while and do good business like WCW, but unfortunately they are at the mercy of the networks and possibly Daddy Khan for how long this keeps going, kind of like Panda Energy and Dixie Carter. If they survive this Warner Discovery merger there’s no guarantee they will survive the next. 

[Jmare007]

1 hour ago, Flyin' Brian said:

Tony seemed to feed that. He made sure to gloat over beating NXT Tuesday night. At this point though, is that really an accomplishment? 

Of course he did, he's a wrestling promoter. Him feeding the fanbase with rah rah stuff after WWE tried to damage them with NXT is something any promoter worth a damn would do.

That doesn't mean they are gonna legit challenge WWE. Being a successful n°2 promotion is pretty damn impressive and from what I've gathered that's always been AEW's goal.

[SirEdger]

Jon Moxley.

Bryan Danielson.

Chris Jericho.

All recognizable names, even for casuals.

And I don't know how being bumped for baseball and basketball is such a big deal. Hell, in Canada, WWE programming is getting bumped regularly for postseason and season kickoffs in major sports. Hell, next week, RAW will air on the OUTDOOR LIFE NETWORK because of the MLB postseason. Think about it.

[Flyin' Brian]

3 minutes ago, SirEdger said:

Jon Moxley.

Bryan Danielson.

Chris Jericho.

All recognizable names, even for casuals.

And I don't know how being bumped for baseball and basketball is such a big deal. Hell, in Canada, WWE programming is getting bumped regularly for postseason and season kickoffs in major sports. Hell, next week, RAW will air on the OUTDOOR LIFE NETWORK because of the MLB postseason. Think about it.

Moxley and Jericho have been there since the beginning. I love them, but they aren’t going to move the needle any further than they already have. Danielson could if he wanted to but he doesn’t want to be the guy. MJF is probably gone when his contract is up. I just find it hard to trust the future of a company that is going to choose Colt Cabana over CM Punk. It would not surprise me as soon as they are able for WWE to bring back ECW with Punk and Heyman in charge, drop it across from AEW on Wednesday night and give Punk a hot mike. And Tony knows it too or he wouldn’t be fighting for this non compete even though he’s getting rid of Punk and doesn’t want him anymore. Everyone got what they wanted, the people still there got their company back. Enjoy it while it lasts. 

[SirEdger]

Quite frankly, CM Punk made the decision for AEW by pulling that stunt at the All Out press conference. Punk's the very reason why Cabana was relegated to ROH while he's adored and respected by the entire locker room. If anything, Tony Khan had chosen Punk over Cabana before the events of All Out unfolded.

[sek69]

I don't see Punk ever returning to WWE. Yeah, money's money but Punk is a Hall of Fame level grudge holding bastard and I don't see him ever getting over them trying to kill him with Z-paks. 

I know, I know everyone's going to mention the Fox show but there's a difference between being a talking head on a recap type show and going back to the daily grind of WWE. 

 

2 hours ago, Flyin' Brian said:

I was more talking about longevity. They may stick around for a while and do good business like WCW, but unfortunately they are at the mercy of the networks and possibly Daddy Khan for how long this keeps going, kind of like Panda Energy and Dixie Carter. If they survive this Warner Discovery merger there’s no guarantee they will survive the next. 

AEW gets solid ratings that even if things go sideways with WB/Discovery they should have little problem getting a new TV deal with another network.  Also Daddy Carter kept Dixie on a short leash financially and (as far as I know) TNA never made much money under their run. They famously had embarrassingly low PPV buys even when they were getting a million+ viewers on TV and AEW has done over 100k for every PPV they've done. 

I suppose if you thought AEW was going to swoop in and overtake WWE as the market leader within a few years you were going to be disappointed. WWE is the Name Brand in pro wrestling and has been running as a de facto monopoly for 20+ years, I'm sure that's Tony's long term goal for the future but it wasn't the short term goal.  Being able to carve out a spot as a successful #2 company that has partnerships with companies across the world is an impressive feat in of itself, and honestly more than I expected when this all kicked off. 

[Coffey]

21 hours ago, Flyin' Brian said:

I'm beginning to think AEW is a lost cause. Another flash in the pan or at best TNA 2.0. National television deal, great roster, but can't seem to get out of their own way. Good enough to beat NXT but will probably never be able to challenge main roster WWE. It's sad too, because the potential was there. They don't want to be anything more than what they are. It's been fun for a while, maybe they will survive this Warner Discovery merger, but eventually if they don't grow they'll get tossed aside. WWE wins again. 

I'm not as pessimistic as this as I feel they've been successful thus far, certainly. My biggest complaint is that they still just feel like an Indie. Like the show comes off as bush league on TV. The gimmick commentator, the picture-in-picture, the old WCW Saturday Night style entrance... It doesn't feel big enough. Even with the good crowds & big PPV numbers, it feels amateur. 

That's not even getting into the majority of the roster, which I feel isn't ready for weekly TV. Tony Khan is a money mark. Or, a money Smart Mark as it were. And although he does have a lot more money than most, he's still just a wrestling fan blowing through money to fantasy book. He doesn't know anything about episodic TV & it shows.

The new car smell is gone & with it, a lot of the hype & expectations of the company. I think everyone had their own vision of what AEW would turn into but it didn't really turn into anything. It stayed what it was, which is a super Indy, only it added a bunch of bloated ex-WWE people to the roster & started fading out their homegrown originals. 

[El-P]

AEW is the N°2 pro-wrestling promotion in the world. It has been in position to challenge WWE in term of ratings and swapping talents. It totally changed the landscape of the business, all in three years and being created from nothing. And in subjective term, it has gave me the best and most fun pro-wrestling show ever for about two years (and a half ?) and still delivers some ridiculously great stuff. What a disappointment, for sure...

The idea that AEW would be a second WWE is ridiculous. Fuck, they should NEVER be as successful as they are. And really, the last thing I want is someone trying to be another WWE. Let them run shows in stadiums with shitbag influencers in Saudi Arabia. I don't need another company like this in my pro-wrestling landscape. I like my AEW and IMPACT, with some AAA, NJPW and Stardom thrown in from time to time.

[El-P]

As far as Punk goes, there is talk of contract buy-out now. Hopefully, with Ace Steel gone too, that means the door is open for the Elite to come back. 

[Flyin' Brian]

Jericho’s flunky at it again. https://www.webisjericho.com/opinion-cm-punk-needs-aew-more-than-aew-needs-cm-punk/

[Flyin' Brian]

20 hours ago, SirEdger said:

Quite frankly, CM Punk made the decision for AEW by pulling that stunt at the All Out press conference. Punk's the very reason why Cabana was relegated to ROH while he's adored and respected by the entire locker room. If anything, Tony Khan had chosen Punk over Cabana before the events of All Out unfolded.

Khan himself said he made the decision to move Cabana to ROH. Punk having anything to do with the decision is a lie and that lie is the root of the whole problem. Khan chose the liars and the leakers, and seems to have no problem with the leaks because they haven’t stopped. Maybe he likes having Meltzer and company in his back pocket, but it’s a red flag for any other talent that’s not on the ‘friend’s list’ that as soon as the people in charge decide they don’t like you they’ll work to undermine you. The Kliq would be doing a slow clap. 

[Flyin' Brian]

1 hour ago, El-P said:

AEW is the N°2 pro-wrestling promotion in the world. It has been in position to challenge WWE in term of ratings and swapping talents. It totally changed the landscape of the business, all in three years and being created from nothing. And in subjective term, it has gave me the best and most fun pro-wrestling show ever for about two years (and a half ?) and still delivers some ridiculously great stuff. What a disappointment, for sure...

The idea that AEW would be a second WWE is ridiculous. Fuck, they should NEVER be as successful as they are. And really, the last thing I want is someone trying to be another WWE. Let them run shows in stadiums with shitbag influencers in Saudi Arabia. I don't need another company like this in my pro-wrestling landscape. I like my AEW and IMPACT, with some AAA, NJPW and Stardom thrown in from time to time.

I guess I wanted a promotion that was like ‘what if Crockett/WCW/TNA made the right decisions’. A national promotion with something for everyone that was a real alternative to WWE. Who have they really gotten that WWE wanted or had and really wanted to keep? Danielson and Punk are really the only ones that fit that. Everyone else were WWE releases or people they didn’t try very hard to resign. If I’m a WWE star right now, I would be looking at what happened to Punk as a cautionary tale. Everything was fine until it came time for one of the friends to drop their title to Punk, then it’s like they did everything they could to get under his skin and get rid of him. Leak lies to Meltzer and bring it up on live tv. Make sure that your side of the story is the only side that gets out there, then any attempt to tell the opposite side is labeled as reason to get rid of Punk, yet the leaking and the going into business for yourself on tv and Jericho’s website going out of their way to paint Punk as the only one at fault here all gets a pass. Get all your friends and the head of legal that also seems to be on the friends list to go confront Punk in his dressing room in the middle of the night, then again when it gets out of hand the only one taking any of the blame or consequences are Steel and Punk. It really is a master class in backstage politics. No one is going to stick up for Punk in AEW because the same thing that happened to him can happen to them, so the narrative can be that the whole locker room is against Punk and he’s the whole problem. If I’m MJF or anyone else that’s a top guy or could be the top guy that’s not on the friends list I’m just hoping I can get out of there before I get screwed over too.  Cody did a lot of weird stuff but he looks smarter every day. There’s probably a reason he didn’t want to be near the World Title in AEW, and Danielson may see it too. If MJF beats Moxley we’ll see what happens to him. WCW made it 13 years as a national promotion on TBS/TNT, TNA/Impact was on Spike for 10, I’ll honestly be surprised if AEW is still around as a national promotion in five more years. 

[El-P]

30 minutes ago, Flyin' Brian said:

I guess I wanted a promotion that was like ‘what if Crockett/WCW/TNA made the right decisions’. A national promotion with something for everyone that was a real alternative to WWE. 

It what ways AEW is not a national promotion that is an alternative to WWE ? Really now. They are a three years and a half old promotion. They have done more than TNA ever did. They don't have the same context WCW had, coming off from the most successful territory and already being on TV forever by the point they got really successful. As far as having something for everyone, well, it has, really.

The whole "The Elite screwed CM Punk over" is basically a nice fiction for everyone anti-Elite, but let's be real, the only factual thing everybody knows, is that CM Punk acted like an unprofessional prick by publically burying a promotion that signed him to a fat-ass money contract. That's the only factual thing anyone on this board has access to. The rest is just people making assumptions based on their own bias.  The strong anti-Elite bias being what it is, I guess even in this case it's enough to make Punk the "good guy" in this occurence, despite many, many people reacting to his meltdown as plain "Well, Punk does it again, no surprise there".

Honestly, if I'm Paul Lesveque, although the idea of getting Punk can seem appealing on some level, I would stay the fuck away from him at this point. He doesn't need him *at all*.

30 minutes ago, Flyin' Brian said:

WCW made it 13 years as a national promotion on TBS/TNT

They were a territory before becoming WCW, they were not a jumpstart promotion. Totally different context, also in term of how TV business works. They lasted 13 years, but their downfall is probably the most pathetic ever in pro-wrestling.

30 minutes ago, Flyin' Brian said:

TNA/Impact was on Spike for 10

Never drew jackshit, never sold PPV's, never were competitive in any way shape or form with WWE.

30 minutes ago, Flyin' Brian said:

 I’ll honestly be surprised if AEW is still around as a national promotion in five more years. 

Who knows. The fact is, the most menacing threat to AEW is not booking, it's not injuries, it's not WWE, it's merger of big media companies. 

I've been very critical of a lot of things about the company in the last 6 months (to the point that overall, I enjoy IMPACT more than AEW lately, especially as a weekly TV product leading to regular bigger shows), at least, but the impending doom discussion seems ridiculous to me. The company has done much better than they had the right to following-up on this Punk/Elite debacle actually.

[Timbo Slice]

It’s not an “anti-Elite” bias so much as it’s people reading between the lines about what has come out from the incident. An “anti-Elite” bias would state something like “They shouldn’t be a part of the company either.”
 

When all the news after the incident has come out trying to paint pictures about Punk wanting out or buyouts or what have you (with the latest coming from Jericho’s camp via the WO in a way that is so blatantly obvious it’s kinda sad, especially after he signed an extension AND was lauded for being a “locked room leader” after it went down), Punk’s point about people talking to the sheets is becoming more of a self-fulfilling prophecy. And THAT is where I have an issue with all of this; there was an opportunity for this to turn into something that could have been squashed and business could be done with it, and instead everyone’s egos needed to be assuaged.  

Again, the fact that there has basically been NOTHING from Punk over the last two months is incredibly telling. Just as much as the actually reported “news.”

[El-P]

24 minutes ago, Timbo Slice said:

It’s not an “anti-Elite” bias so much as it’s people reading between the lines about what has come out from the incident.

Through their anti-Elite bias.  I mean, let's be serious for a minute here. CM Punk is the one who had been acting like a complete unprofesionnal prick *twice*. It's easy to "read between the lines" and make up stuff about political hits and whatnot, but there's one guy who has been acting like a little shit on TV and during the press conference here. I don't see where the sympathy comes from, really. And I have been enjoying Punk a whole lot, so it's not like I wasn't a fan of his stint thus far either, no certainly no anti-CM Punk bias from me. I love everybody (well, not everybody everybody, ok ?).

I for one hope the Elite gets back on TV soon now and this debacle gets put in the rearview mirrors.

As far as Punk goes, there's something that gets totally undersold, is that his body has been betraying him very badly. Wins the title, hurts his foot and out for months. Gets back, wins the title and gets hurt *again* and was gonna be out anyway even if the debacle had not happened. 

[NintendoLogic]

Painting Punk as the wronged party here doesn't seem tenable based on the information that is publicly known and agreed upon. There may be situations where the person who throws the first punch in a confrontation (as is universally agreed Punk did) is the one in the right, but they're exceedingly rare. Even if the Elite were leaking false rumors about Punk and Cabana to the sheets (which, again, there is zero evidence they actually did), that's no justification for lashing out violently.

[Flyin' Brian]

1 hour ago, El-P said:

It what ways AEW is not a national promotion that is an alternative to WWE ? Really now. They are a three years and a half old promotion. They have done more than TNA ever did. They don't have the same context WCW had, coming off from the most successful territory and already being on TV forever by the point they got really successful. As far as having something for everyone, well, it has, really.

The whole "The Elite screwed CM Punk over" is basically a nice fiction for everyone anti-Elite, but let's be real, the only factual thing everybody knows, is that CM Punk acted like an unprofessional prick by publically burying a promotion that signed him to a fat-ass money contract. That's the only factual thing anyone on this board has access to. The rest is just people making assumptions based on their own bias.  The strong anti-Elite bias being what it is, I guess even in this case it's enough to make Punk the "good guy" in this occurence, despite many, many people reacting to his meltdown as plain "Well, Punk does it again, no surprise there".

Honestly, if I'm Paul Lesveque, although the idea of getting Punk can seem appealing on some level, I would stay the fuck away from him at this point. He doesn't need him *at all*.

They were a territory before becoming WCW, they were not a jumpstart promotion. Totally different context, also in term of how TV business works. They lasted 13 years, but their downfall is probably the most pathetic ever in pro-wrestling.

Never drew jackshit, never sold PPV's, never were competitive in any way shape or form with WWE.

Who knows. The fact is, the most menacing threat to AEW is not booking, it's not injuries, it's not WWE, it's merger of big media companies. 

I've been very critical of a lot of things about the company in the last 6 months (to the point that overall, I enjoy IMPACT more than AEW lately, especially as a weekly TV product leading to regular bigger shows), at least, but the impending doom discussion seems ridiculous to me. The company has done much better than they had the right to following-up on this Punk/Elite debacle actually.

I know it’s a fact that someone leaked to Meltzer that Cabana got moved to ROH because of Punk and he reported it as fact. I know Page mentioned it on National TV. I know he faced no real consequences because of that. I know no one leaking to Meltzer and company have faced no real consequences because of it. I know that no one involved in this is facing any real criticism, blowback, or long term consequences except Steel and Punk. Those are all facts. 

[El-P]

Maybe this source red between the lines that Colt Cabana vanishing in thin air once CM Punk got hired had everything to do with Punk pulling his political weight to screw his former friend... And so reading *this* between the lines is complete bullshit, but reading between the lines of an elaborate political hit by the Elite against CM Punk is just making sense is a very objective manner ? Sure...

As far as Hangman using that line in a promo, why the hell not. It was in a context of an exchange inside the ring building for a match, using stiff points on each others *back and forth*. CM Punk did not like it (and he had every right to not like it, whether the assertion was true or not BTW), but instead of dealing with it as a pro, he chose to make a stupid, unscripted call-out of Hangman and insulted him *while he wasn't even there*, *while he was not involved in an angle with him*, on live TV, knowing he would make Hangman look like an idiot for not responding. He crossed the line of being unprofessional *during the show*, it had nothing to do with building a match at all by then. And then of course the ridiculous public meltdown and the punching backstage, which pretty much everyone agrees on as @NintendoLogic said. Really now... 

[Flyin' Brian]

2 hours ago, NintendoLogic said:

Painting Punk as the wronged party here doesn't seem tenable based on the information that is publicly known and agreed upon. There may be situations where the person who throws the first punch in a confrontation (as is universally agreed Punk did) is the one in the right, but they're exceedingly rare. Even if the Elite were leaking false rumors about Punk and Cabana to the sheets (which, again, there is zero evidence they actually did), that's no justification for lashing out violently.

Universally agreed Punk did based on more leaked rumors and reports. Sigh. If there’s ever an official report the maybe I’ll agree with you. Until then it’s all speculation. No one has any real facts about the confrontation , just second and third hand statements that no one has put their name to. 

[Flyin' Brian]

1 hour ago, El-P said:

Maybe this source red between the lines that Colt Cabana vanishing in thin air once CM Punk got hired had everything to do with Punk pulling his political weight to screw his former friend... And so reading *this* between the lines is complete bullshit, but reading between the lines of an elaborate political hit by the Elite against CM Punk is just making sense is a very objective manner ? Sure...

As far as Hangman using that line in a promo, why the hell not. It was in a context of an exchange inside the ring building for a match, using stiff points on each others *back and forth*. CM Punk did not like it (and he had every right to not like it, whether the assertion was true or not BTW), but instead of dealing with it as a pro, he chose to make a stupid, unscripted call-out of Hangman and insulted him *while he wasn't even there*, *while he was not involved in an angle with him*, on live TV, knowing he would make Hangman look like an idiot for not responding. He crossed the line of being unprofessional *during the show*, it had nothing to do with building a match at all by then. And then of course the ridiculous public meltdown and the punching backstage, which pretty much everyone agrees on as @NintendoLogic said. Really now... 

AEW did nothing to address the leaked comments and set the record straight. They did nothing to stop them or find and punish the people doing it. There’s nothing wrong with Hangman bringing it up when it had absolutely nothing to do with the feud or match, yet when Punk sends a receipt because again nothing was done about it then he is wrong and unprofessional? I’m not saying Punk is 100% in the right at all. I am saying there is a double standard and people are defending the Elite and they are getting a pass when their behavior has been just as wrong. 

[Flyin' Brian]

It’s always the person who retaliates or fights back that gets punished instead of the person that started it or created the situation. People are just expected to take it when they are treated like garbage, stand up for yourself or push back and suddenly you’re the bad guy or acting crazy or making a big deal about nothing. AEW is a shitilly run company but Tony and the people in charge seem to like it that way. Punk isn’t the problem. This same stuff will keep happening even after he’s gone because it’s the culture now that it has been allowed to happen and keep happening with no consequences for the people that initiate it. 

[Flyin' Brian]

Personal experience is coloring my opinion about this. It’s getting to the point where it’s not about wrestling and it’s not fun anymore. It’s not fun to have everyone pile on you for something you didn’t do. I guess that’s the part I sympathize with. Everything after the point Punk’s promo on Page happened you can blame him for. Everything up to that point I don’t think he did anything wrong. 

[sek69]

9 minutes ago, Flyin' Brian said:

Everything after the point Punk’s promo on Page happened you can blame him for. Everything up to that point I don’t think he did anything wrong. 

There are really only two options that make sense re: Punk's actions from the promo on Page and after:

1. He knew or at least believed the Elite was burying  him so he just said "fuck this place" and went nuclear. 

or

2. He was just being the surly dickhead he has been known to be forever. 

Neither really makes him look super great.  There's a reason the reaction Dave got from people in WWE was "now they know what we had to deal with", but I suppose that could have been anti Punk forces painting a narrative again.

[Timbo Slice]

My point with this is regarding sourcing than anything else: Dave’s word is getting taken as gospel here due to access and familiarity of product but he is biased towards the people who get him info. It’s always been his biggest criticism. Which is why ANYTIME you hear anything from him, you have to take it with a grain of salt, especially when patterns emerge.

 

The specific pattern here is a ton of stuff painting Punk in the wrong regardless. He absolutely has brought up what happened from the Elite’s side but it’s not given nearly as much ink as Punk. And that’s by design. That isn’t a bias against the Elite. It’s scrutiny towards sourcing in an industry that has always had a huge access problem. It’s also why it’s been easy to see so many writers get led astray in the weeks following the incident, getting fed red herrings that get refuted almost immediately. It’s makes Dave look better by comparison, but it doesn’t make him the source of truth. 
 

That’s why I don’t really care what has happened until we either get some decently sourced info from Punk’s side or from Punk himself, which will eventually happen. To sit here and just say “Punk’s an asshole, therefore it’s his fault” is just an easy explanation for a complicated situation, not the right one.