Greatest Wrestler of All Time

[stunning_grover]

I participated in the Greatest Wrestler of All Time poll that was held at smarkschoice forum quite a while ago now (I think it was about two years ago?). And I know some of you guys participated in that poll as well. I remember Jumbo Tsuruta winning it. But has anything been saved from that poll? Any lists or posts?

[Loss]

I think there's a list somewhere. I'll see if I can find it.

[floyd]

Here it is, I didn't get the points/#votes though sorry:

 

 

1. Jumbo Tsuruta

2. Toshiaki Kawada

3. Chris Benoit

4. Jushin Liger

5. Kenta Kobashi

6. Eddie Guerrero

7. Mitsuharu Misawa

8. Ric Flair

9. Bret Hart

10. Stan Hansen

 

11. Terry Funk

12. Harley Race

13. Ricky Steamboat

14. Dynamite Kid

15. Akira Hokuto

16. Steve Austin

17. Vader

18. Aja Kong

19. Nobuhiko Takada

20. El Hijo Del Santo

21. Genichiro Tenryu

22. Rey Mysterio Jr.

23. Jaguar Yokota

24. Shinya Hashimoto

25. The Destroyer

26. Akira Taue

27. Shinjiro Ohtani

28. Barry Windham

29. Manami Toyota

30. Giant Baba

31. Mayumi Ozaki

32. Blue Panther

33. Hiroshi Hase

34. Arn Anderson

35. Devil Masami

36. Billy Robinson

37. Owen Hart

38. Negro Casas

39. Chigusa Nagayo

40. Ted DiBasie

41. Jerry Lawler

42. Volk Han

43. Bull Nakano

44. Randy Savage

45. Curt Hennig

46. Shawn Michaels

47. Terry Gordy

48. Jack Brisco

49. Bobby Eaton

50. Jun Akiyama

 

51. Dick Murdoch

52. Steve Williams

53. Keiji Muto

54. Steven Regal

55. Dave Finlay

56. Nick Bockwinkle

57. Tully Blanchard

58. Tatsumi Fujinami

59. Mariko Yoshida

60. Dynamite Kansai

61. Akira Maeda

62. Ultimo Dragon

63. Kiyoshi Tamura

64. The Rock

65. Kyoko Inoue

66. Kazuo Yamazaki

67. El Dandy

68. Tiger Mask

69. Dory Funk Jr.

70. Mick Foley

71. Antonio Inoki

72. Masahiro Chono

73. Lioness Asuka

74. El Samurai

75. Ricky Morton

76. Bob Backlund

77. Shiro Koshinaka

78. Adrain Adonis

79. Dump Matsumoto

80. Kurt Angle

81. Mark Rocco

82. Lou Thesz

83. The Great Sasuke

84. Chris Jericho

85. Rick Rude

86. Hulk Hogan

87. Taka Michinoku

88. Brian Pillman

89. Satanico

90. Dean Malenko

91. Toshiyo Yamada

92. Psicosis

93. Tommy Rogers

94. Atlantis

95. Dan Kroffat

96. Rick Martel

97. Naoki Sano

98. Dick Togo

99. Stg. Slaughter

100. Riki Choshu

 

101. Tsuyoshi Kikuchi

102. Mima Shimoda

103. Davey Boy Smith

104. Jake Roberts

105. Kensuke Sasaki

106. Masa Fuchi

107. MS-1

108. Villano III

109. Triple H

110. Dusty Rhodes

111. Juventud Guerrera

112. Bruiser Brody

113. Etsuko Mita

114. Masato Tanaka

115. Jim Breaks

116. Samoa Joe

117. Bryan Danielson

118. Hayabusa

119. Yoshiaki Fujiwara

120. Buddy Rogers

121. Eddie Gilbert

122. Ray Stevens

123. Pirata Morgan

124. Dos Caras

125. La Parka

126. Megumi Kudo

127. Sting

128. Fuerza Guerrera

129. Atsushi Onita

130. Javier Cruz

131. Solar I

132. The Undertaker

133. Jimmy Snuka

134. Johnny Saint

135. Steve Grey

136. Bill Dundee

137. Dustin Rhodes

138. El Texano

139. Gorgeous George

140. Sabu

141. Rikidozan

142. Brock Lesnar

143. Karl Gotch

144. Too Cold Scorpio

145. Mil Mascaras

146. Scott Steiner

147. KENTA

148. Kintaro Kanemura

149. Silver King

150. Bruno Sammartino

151. Chavo Guerrero

152. Mr. Gannosuke

153. Roddy Piper

154. Dick Slater

155. Dr. Wagner Jr.

156. Takako Inoue

157. Tsuyoshi Kohsaka

158. Yoshihiro Takayama

159. Brazo De Oro

160. Lizmark

161. Brazo De Plata

162. Don Muraco

163. Johnny Valentine

164. Andre The Giant

165. Kaoru Ito

166. Wahoo McDaniel

167. Johnny Smith

168. Koji Kanemoto

169. Satoshi Kojima

170. Greg Valentine

171. Ultimo Guerrero

172. Jinsei Shinzaki

173. Meiko Satomura

174. Yuki Ishikawa

175. Butch Reed

176. Pat Patterson

177. Jim Londos

178. Bam Bam Bigelow

179. Sakie Hasegawa

180. Negro Navarro

181. Kuniaki Kobayashi

182. Clive Myers

183. Jerry Estrada

184. Rip Rogers

185. Gene Kiniski

186. Yugi Nagata

187. Tetsuhiro Kuroda

188. Danny Hodge

189. Momoe Nakanishi

190. Gran Hamada

191. Kazushi Sakuraba

192. Mimi Hagiwara

193. Verne Gagne

194. Sangre Chicana

195. Art Barr

196. Manny Fernandez

197. Brad Armstrong

198. Hiroyoshi Tenzan

199. El Canek

200. Ebessan

 

201. Emilio Charles Jr.

202. Jerry Blackwell

203. SUWA

204. Buddy Landel

205. Koji Nakagawa

206. Bill Goldberg

207. Bill Eadie

208. Tito Santana

209. Naomichi Marufuji

210. Rob Van Dam

211. Shocker

212. Edge

213. Bob Orton Jr.

214. KAORU

215. Hiromi Yagi

216. Ray Traylor

217. Don Leo Jonathan

218. El Faraon

219. Hikari Fukuoka

220. The Big Show

221. Minoru Suzuki

222. Ivan Koloff

223. Argentinino Rocca

224. Espectrito

225. Buzz Sawyer

226. Dennis Condrey

227. Abdullah The Butcher

228. Scott Hall

229. Pimpinela Escarlata

230. Mick McManus

231. Booker T

232. Jackie Saito

233. Kerry Von Erich

234. Bad News Allen

235. Larry Zbyszko

236. Pete Roberts

237. Ron Garvin

238. Masaaki Mochizuki

239. Buddy Rose

240. Chikayo Nagashima

241. Magnum Tokyo

242. Super Delfin

243. John Layfield

244. Freddy Blassie

245. Daisuke Ikeda

246. Hisakatsu Ooya

246. Talisman

248. El Signo

249. Ciclon Ramirez

250. Low Ki

251. Haku

252. Paul Orndorff

253. Magnum T.A.

255. Rey Bucanero

256. Raven

257. Yoshiaki Yatsu

257. Mad Dog Vachon

258. Shinobu Kandori

259. Candy Okutsu

260. Mike Rotundo

261. Kodo Fuyuki

262. Johnny Kidd

263. Val Venis

264. Sean Waltman

265. AKIRA

266. Marty Jannetty

267. The Sheik

268. Bill Watts

269. Masa Saito

270. Osamu Nishimura

271. Dick The Bruiser

272. Chris Adams

273. Yumiko Hotta

274. CIMA

275. Tracey Smothers

276. Debbie Malenko

276. Yumi Fukawa

278. La Fiera

279. Tom Prichard

280. Volador

281. Gran Apache

282. Marty Jones

283. Super Astro

284. Diamond Dallas Page

285. Doug Furnas

286. Azumi Hyuga

287. Eagal Sawai

288. Perro Aguayo

289. Dino Bravo

290. Stan Lane

291. Chris Candido

292. Mika Akino

293. Felineo

294. Super Crazy

294. Yoshihiro Tajiri

296. Alexander Otsuka

298. Condor Saito

298. Carlos Colon

298. Darkness Dragon

 

300. Jerry Graham

301. AJ Styles

302. Mikey Whipwreck

303. Steve Wright

304. Frank Gotch

305. Leo Burke

306. Yumi Ikeshita

307. El Santo

307. Mistico

308. Osamu Kido

310. The Spoiler

311. Killer Kowalski

312. The Cobra

313. Archie Gouldie

313. Pierroth Jr.

315. Robbie Bookside

316. Chris Hero

318. Michael Hayes

318. The Iron Sheik

318. Tomoko Watanabe

320. Ben Bassarab

321. Suzuki Minami

322. Blue Demon

323. Ken Patera

323. Vic Faulkner

325. Mick McMichael

326. Christopher Daniels

326. Tamon Honda

328. Chic Cullen

329. Phil Hickerson

330. Herodes

331. Dory Funk

331. Mike Awesome

333. Bison Kimura

333. Bronko Nagurski

333. Yoji Anjoh

336. Masakatsu Funaki

337. Combat Toyota

338. Kumiko Maekawa

339. Scott Norton

339. Zumbido

341. Bad Boy Hido

341. Carl Malenko

341. Pat O'Connor

344. Kazunari Murakami

345. Pedro Morales

346. Keith Hayward

346. Mascarito Sagrada 2000

346. Octagoncito

349. El Halcon

349. Katsuyori Shibata

351. Les Thornton

353. Bill Longson

354. Dream Machine

354. Millano Collection A.T.

354. Jado

354. Porkchop Cash

358. Raymond Rogeau

358. Gedo

360. Ernie Ladd

360. Hector Garza

360. Jacques Rogeau

360. Yoshinari Ogawa

364. Robert Gibson

364. Virus

367. Beef Wellington

367. The Bloody

367. Gino Hernandez

370. Hiroshi Tanahashi

370. Souko Kato

370. Tatsuhiko Takaiwa

373. Matt Borne

373. Pat Tanaka

373. Tony St. Claire

373. Toshie Uematsu

377. Gary Albright

377. Ikuto Hidaka

377. Matt Hardy

380. Cutie Suzuki

380. Johnny Ace

380. Pat Roach

383. Les Kellett

383. Terry Taylor

383. Tony Charles

386. El Brazo

386. Genki Horiguchi

386. Kane

386. Mascara Ano 2000

386. Wayne Bridges

391. Blackman

391. Dragon Kid

391. Michiko Ohmukai

391. Mikhail Illoukhine

395. Andrei Hopylov

395. Ayako Hamada

395. Bobo Brazil

395. El Solitario

395. Marabunta

395. Perry Saturn

401. Apolo Dantes

401. Eddie Graham

401. Jerry Lynn

401. Shelton Benjamin

405. Animal

405. Chavo Guerrero Jr.

405. Tatsuo Wakano

408. The Crusher

408. Luke Williams

408. Masahito Kakihara

411. Big Bruno Elrington

411. Butch Miller

411. Danny Collins

411. Kato Kung Lee

411. Plum Mariko

411. Yoshinobu Kanemaru

418. Ran Yu Yu

418. Black Buffalo

418. Dick Shikat

418. Horst Hoffman

418. Joe Malenko

418. Jonothan Boyd

418. Universo 2000

425. Doug Gilbert

425. CM Punk

425. Heavy Metal

425. Ken Lucas

425. Mr. Wrestling II

425. Sid Vicious

425. Yoshiaki Yanamoto

432. Dutch Mantell

432. Nikita Koloff

432. The Sandman

434. Akitoshi Saito

435. Dan Spivey

435. Gama Singh

435. Johnny Eagals

435. Necro Butcher

435. Villano IV

441. Jody Fleisch

441. Sakura Hirota

441. Thunderpolt Patterson

441. Yoshiko Tamura

[smkelly]

What is this based on?

 

Drawing, ability, accomplishments, titles held, prestige, overness, etc - or just a random voting thing?

[jdw]

My recollection just on work, and dependant on how the voter defined great work within his/her own mind.

 

 

John

[smkelly]

Ah, kinda explains the weirdness of the results then.

[Al]

How many wrestlers did each voter rank? If it's a top 20, the results are really skewed after that point in this sort of process.

[jdw]

100.

 

I think some submitted less than 100.

 

 

Joh

[jdw]

I confess that my favorite things as the list was getting released were:

 

30. Giant Baba

46. Shawn Michaels

 

76. Bob Backlund

112. Bruiser Brody

Brody not making the Top 100 was like the coolest thing ever.

 

Shawn weezing into the Top 50 but instantly stalling was the next coolest, especially given the various people ahead of him.

 

 

 

John

[Loss]

Everyone submitted either 50 or 100 wrestlers. There were some people strangely arguing that in the entire history of pro wrestling, there haven't been 100 great wrestlers.

[Bix]

Everyone submitted either 50 or 100 wrestlers. There were some people strangely arguing that in the entire history of pro wrestling, there haven't been 100 great wrestlers.

That was...frustrating to say the least. Who were they, I can't recall...was frankp316 one?

[jdw]

I know I passed on submitting a ballot because I couldn't do the list its proper justice (especially the lucha). Didn't mean that I didn't enjoy the poll, and participate in the discussion on the wrestlers that I knew.

 

 

John

[Resident Evil]

My recollection just on work, and dependant on how the voter defined great work within his/her own mind.

 

 

John

Yup, that's how I did it. There were some placings that people placed higher than they would have due to them worried about them getting looked over with others. I know I did that a little bit myself.

[goodhelmet]

Everyone submitted either 50 or 100 wrestlers. There were some people strangely arguing that in the entire history of pro wrestling, there haven't been 100 great wrestlers.

I was one of those people, and it wasn't the entire history of pro wrestling, it was televised wrestling if you want to be specific even though alot of people included wrestlers from the pre-taped era. Also, it came down to a point of wrestlers you have seen, not just ones you heard were great. It is also a definition of great. THere are tons of wrestlers I wouldn't call great even if they had great matches. I stand by everything I said then.

[S.L.L.]

Everyone submitted either 50 or 100 wrestlers. There were some people strangely arguing that in the entire history of pro wrestling, there haven't been 100 great wrestlers.

"Great" is kind of a vague term. I imagine I could have the same opinion of The Big Boss Man as another guy, and I would call him "great" and he wouldn't, just because of different standards we have for using the term. And realistically, this is going to be more apparent when judging something like pro wrestlers, where the art is much lower and the scope (that we have available on tape, anyway) is much smaller than in film or music or something like that.

[Loss]

Everyone submitted either 50 or 100 wrestlers. There were some people strangely arguing that in the entire history of pro wrestling, there haven't been 100 great wrestlers.

I was one of those people, and it wasn't the entire history of pro wrestling, it was televised wrestling if you want to be specific even though alot of people included wrestlers from the pre-taped era. Also, it came down to a point of wrestlers you have seen, not just ones you heard were great. It is also a definition of great. THere are tons of wrestlers I wouldn't call great even if they had great matches. I stand by everything I said then.

 

If great matches don't make a great wrestler, what does? I agree that plenty of wrestlers who aren't great have been in great matches, and I know the point you're getting at, but I'm asking you that because I want to know your definition.

 

I guess the only response I can have to that is to go through everyone ranked in the top 100 and tell me everyone that isn't great and why.

 

The only one I'd really argue would be Kurt Angle, but I doubt anyone who didn't think there were 100 great wrestlers thought there were 99 great wrestlers.

[Loss]

Everyone submitted either 50 or 100 wrestlers. There were some people strangely arguing that in the entire history of pro wrestling, there haven't been 100 great wrestlers.

"Great" is kind of a vague term. I imagine I could have the same opinion of The Big Boss Man as another guy, and I would call him "great" and he wouldn't, just because of different standards we have for using the term. And realistically, this is going to be more apparent when judging something like pro wrestlers, where the art is much lower and the scope (that we have available on tape, anyway) is much smaller than in film or music or something like that.

 

True, but my feeling was that people were focusing at times too much on the word "great" and turning it into a semantics argument during the time of the poll. My definition of great is a wrestler who has had a sustained period in their career (at least a year, and the longer the better) where the majority of their stuff was worth watching for the right reasons. The longer that time frame, the more stuff worth watching, the more they made better those around them, and the more favorable they look compared to their peers, the better. If you raise the bar further than that, there aren't really more than a dozen or so great wrestlers -- Flair, Jumbo, Misawa, Kawada, Kobashi, Santo, Casas, Liger, Benoit, Guerrero, Funk, Brisco, Lawler and then the list starts to peter out.

 

I think the fact that only two wrestlers appeared on every ballot only strengthens my point.

[ohtani's jacket]

I think I only submitted 50 wrestlers. I wanted to make sure I chose 50 great workers instead of filling up a ballot. Still don't like the top 10.

[BO1]

Actually, besides me banging my head on some of the lower picks while reading through the list(especially the US indy picks and some others, Joe and Danielson, while best US indy guys of the millenium, are way too fucking high), I found it gradually improving(along the lines of my taste of course) as higher as it got. I still don't agree with every spot, as some better wrestlers(ahem, Dundee, a few more million guys...) are lower than some lesser ones(ahem, Michaels, Angle, Rock, Hennig) but I still think the list is pretty well rounded.

Of course, a list like this would probably change a bit if we did it now with some promotions(or even certain matches) getting a recent viewing boom but still, a personal favorite list is always the better than a general consensous(not that it takes a genious to figure that out) so sometimes reading between the lines through peoples list with whom you actually share some opinions is the most fun part in these things.

With all that said, I'm pretty content with the top 10 myself(especially the top 2 spots ).

[goodhelmet]

Everyone submitted either 50 or 100 wrestlers. There were some people strangely arguing that in the entire history of pro wrestling, there haven't been 100 great wrestlers.

"Great" is kind of a vague term. I imagine I could have the same opinion of The Big Boss Man as another guy, and I would call him "great" and he wouldn't, just because of different standards we have for using the term. And realistically, this is going to be more apparent when judging something like pro wrestlers, where the art is much lower and the scope (that we have available on tape, anyway) is much smaller than in film or music or something like that.

 

True, but my feeling was that people were focusing at times too much on the word "great" and turning it into a semantics argument during the time of the poll. My definition of great is a wrestler who has had a sustained period in their career (at least a year, and the longer the better) where the majority of their stuff was worth watching for the right reasons. The longer that time frame, the more stuff worth watching, the more they made better those around them, and the more favorable they look compared to their peers, the better. If you raise the bar further than that, there aren't really more than a dozen or so great wrestlers -- Flair, Jumbo, Misawa, Kawada, Kobashi, Santo, Casas, Liger, Benoit, Guerrero, Funk, Brisco, Lawler and then the list starts to peter out.

 

I think the fact that only two wrestlers appeared on every ballot only strengthens my point.

 

It is a semantics argument. The very definition of the word great for an individual determines how thier ballot is shaped. Your definition that you just gave was at least one year of great in-ring work. I think that is criminally short in determining if a guy was great. It just means he had a great year. Lex Luger is the perfect example.

 

Also, I don't understand how only two wrestlers appearing on every ballot strengthens your argument. If 100 people submit a ballot, 5 contrarian voices can wipe out a ton of wrestlers.

[Bix]

I think Loss's point was more that you're harping on the fact the the word "greatest" was used instead of the word "best." If it was a "Best Wrestlers of All Time" post would we be having this argument at all?

[S.L.L.]

It is a semantics argument. The very definition of the word great for an individual determines how thier ballot is shaped. Your definition that you just gave was at least one year of great in-ring work. I think that is criminally short in determining if a guy was great. It just means he had a great year. Lex Luger is the perfect example.

 

Also, I don't understand how only two wrestlers appearing on every ballot strengthens your argument. If 100 people submit a ballot, 5 contrarian voices can wipe out a ton of wrestlers.

I usually don't like when people complain about "arguing over semantics", because semantics are actually pretty important, and understanding semantics is pretty key to communication. That said, I do see his point. Arguing over the specific definition of "great" misses the point of the whole project, and while sharing a definition would make communication easier, it's not really significant functionally. I mean, look at how the list turned out. Conveniently, the top 25 is made of people who we'd probably all agree were "great", and then #26 is Akira Taue, who a lot of us would probably have a very high opinion of - even a roughly identical high opinion - and not all of us would assign the word "great" to him. But if our actual opinions of his quality as a wrestler match up, what does it really matter what words we use to describe it are? #27 is Shinjiro Ohtani, who we probably almost all agree was "great" at one point in his career, but not all of us would describe him as "great" when looking at his entire career. But we'd all have roughly the same actual opinion of his work. I'm not sure how much it really matters.

[goodhelmet]

I think Loss's point was more that you're harping on the fact the the word "greatest" was used instead of the word "best." If it was a "Best Wrestlers of All Time" post would we be having this argument at all?

 

Actually, I am reacting to the fact that the Top 100 crowd is harping on the Top 50 crowd.

[S.L.L.]

Look, this is all besides the point. Can't we just agree that Dave Ditch sending in a top 50 ballot that had Chris Hero on it was weird and move on?

[Loss]

Everyone submitted either 50 or 100 wrestlers. There were some people strangely arguing that in the entire history of pro wrestling, there haven't been 100 great wrestlers.

"Great" is kind of a vague term. I imagine I could have the same opinion of The Big Boss Man as another guy, and I would call him "great" and he wouldn't, just because of different standards we have for using the term. And realistically, this is going to be more apparent when judging something like pro wrestlers, where the art is much lower and the scope (that we have available on tape, anyway) is much smaller than in film or music or something like that.

 

True, but my feeling was that people were focusing at times too much on the word "great" and turning it into a semantics argument during the time of the poll. My definition of great is a wrestler who has had a sustained period in their career (at least a year, and the longer the better) where the majority of their stuff was worth watching for the right reasons. The longer that time frame, the more stuff worth watching, the more they made better those around them, and the more favorable they look compared to their peers, the better. If you raise the bar further than that, there aren't really more than a dozen or so great wrestlers -- Flair, Jumbo, Misawa, Kawada, Kobashi, Santo, Casas, Liger, Benoit, Guerrero, Funk, Brisco, Lawler and then the list starts to peter out.

 

I think the fact that only two wrestlers appeared on every ballot only strengthens my point.

 

It is a semantics argument. The very definition of the word great for an individual determines how thier ballot is shaped. Your definition that you just gave was at least one year of great in-ring work. I think that is criminally short in determining if a guy was great. It just means he had a great year. Lex Luger is the perfect example.

 

Also, I don't understand how only two wrestlers appearing on every ballot strengthens your argument. If 100 people submit a ballot, 5 contrarian voices can wipe out a ton of wrestlers.

 

Lex Luger, for probably a year or two, if even that, was a great wrestler. Lots of wrestlers haven't even had that much. That doesn't mean there aren't 100 wrestlers better than Luger, especially when you start weighing other factors like that he wasn't at that level for most of his career. I wouldn't rank Luger in a top 100, and I do believe there are more than 100 great wrestlers. That's consistent.

 

Jumbo Tsuruta was better than Barry Windham. Barry Windham was better than Ron Garvin. Does that mean Jumbo was the only great one of the three? Of course not.

 

Over 400 wrestlers received votes among 40-something ballots submitted. There were plenty of wrestlers I didn't vote for that you probably didn't either that for that finished high, and it wasn't because we were being contrarian.

 

Greatest, best, Top 100 ... to me, it's all the same, and it's just a buzzword that has the same general meaning regardless.

 

Again, I have to ask -- what wrestlers in the top 100 would you not consider great?