smkelly Posted February 22, 2009 Report Share Posted February 22, 2009 Austin is supposedly in shape for a movie he is doing, so that wouldn't be an issue as much as him not being active in wrestling for so long. I think they (as usual) stumbled into something great with the HHH/Orton angle, since just as no one bought the HBK/JBL storyline because it was too ridiculous to be true, here you have something based in reality. Looking back, you can see how they sort of were planning for this angle for a while, Steph hasn't been physically involved since coming back and they always are doing something to subtly remind folks she's a mom now. Of course everyone knew of the marriage for a while, but when Steph gets laid out by a heel, suddenly there's a real sense of "oh shit, he just nailed the mother of HHH's kids". Also I think you have to give credit to HHH for not going overboard with this. His mugging as a face sometimes gets annoying to the point of distraction, but he's playing this perfectly as a guy who just watched his wife get attacked. The sitdown with JR on Smackdown (do those ever fail to get people/angles over?) where he was too mad to even speak was a thing of awesomeness. Being in movie shape compared to wrestling shape is apples to oranges. The whole Orton and HHH thing is okay in my eyes. It's weird that HHH suddenly starts caring about his estranged wife again. I believe there have been brief moments where they've been nice towards each other, like when HHH was feuding with Vince for the 3rd-100th time. But outside of that, I don't recall seeing or hearing about them being an "on air" couple anymore. HHH rushing to the ring in defense of his wife is cool in theory, but in the WWF story, it doesn't make sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smkelly Posted February 22, 2009 Report Share Posted February 22, 2009 The fact that they're repeating matches so much shows that they really need to mix some new people in. Is there anyone in the top mix Orton hasn't feuded with multiple times? I guess he could feud with JBL if he ever turns face, and maybe Edge, since that wasn't as done to death as everything else, but he's faced Cena (which I think would have been the better choice for a WM main event), HHH, and Undertaker way too many times.Orton, like Edge and JBL, is an effective heel. Remember his babyface run in late '04? It was horrible. Edge has really come into his own as a heel, and his face runs are usually lame. JBL is just a prick of a heel, there's no way to morph him into a face. Wrestlemania has almost nothing to do with the matches. The show will do a buyrate based on how well they can sell the Wrestlemania brand, just like every other year. I don't think most people tune into Wrestlemania because of the line-up -- moreso, because they know it's the biggest show of the year, so whatever is happening must be important. This year is going to be a tough sell no matter what they do because of the economy.I'm in the minority then, that's how I decide to watch something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sek69 Posted February 23, 2009 Report Share Posted February 23, 2009 Being in movie shape compared to wrestling shape is apples to oranges. Obviously, but my point was he's in some kind of shape so if it came down to him having to wrestle he wouldn't come out looking like a fat tub of goo. I'm in the minority then, that's how I decide to watch something. I think it's been long established that people on the internet don't reflect the opinions of the PPV buying public at large. Most people buying the show do so because they see "Wrestlemania" and know that's the show to buy, us internet types tend to need a little more than that. Then again, I'd wager a lot of us order Wrestlemania every year pretty much on name value too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khawk20 Posted February 23, 2009 Report Share Posted February 23, 2009 Taker will never lose. The streak has been so mythologically inflated now that they will never have him lose at Wrestlemania. He'll retire with a perfect record. Plus you can bring him back a couple of years after retirement to "Defend the record" against some young upstart. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khawk20 Posted February 23, 2009 Report Share Posted February 23, 2009 Is Austin in wrestling shape? He hasn't done an actual match in about five years, if I'm not mistaken. Whenever he shows up, it's just to do an wrestling angle where he usually gives somebody the stunner. Doesn't matter if he's in shape for wrestling or not. That can't be a consideration with Rourke out there as a possible. Rourke in the best shape of his life is still Mickey Rourke, actor. Austin even in half-shape is an ex-superstar wrestler who pulls out three or four familiar spots and everyone is happy. Having Rourke in any capacity aside from a cornerman for another actual wrestler makes no sense. Too many things can go wrong with Rourke actually in the ring. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Morris Posted February 23, 2009 Report Share Posted February 23, 2009 I was thinking more about Austin's neck injury and that was what was keeping him from continuing to pursue an active career as a wrestler. If his neck is still giving him problems, I can't see him being able to do a lot in a wrestling match, regardless of other factors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeCampbell Posted February 24, 2009 Report Share Posted February 24, 2009 The whole Orton and HHH thing is okay in my eyes. It's weird that HHH suddenly starts caring about his estranged wife again. I believe there have been brief moments where they've been nice towards each other, like when HHH was feuding with Vince for the 3rd-100th time. But outside of that, I don't recall seeing or hearing about them being an "on air" couple anymore. HHH rushing to the ring in defense of his wife is cool in theory, but in the WWF story, it doesn't make sense. HHH actually acknowledged that they were married in real life on TV and referred to her as the mother of his kids. You're right, it doesn't make much sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted February 24, 2009 Report Share Posted February 24, 2009 While it's not the type of thing that would break the angle, I agree that it's some really terrible continuity. Why, if he cares about her so much, was he getting a blow job on RAW from Candice Michelle while Stephanie was pregnant, and why was he playing sight gags on Vince all night when Stephanie went into labor? Was Shawn, HHH's best friend, able to forgive Stephanie for poisoning him in the build to Wrestlemania 22? I mean, I know he forgave HHH for attacking him in a parking lot, costing him a championship multiple times, walking away and laughing when Kane caused him internal bleeding, and putting him in a wheelchair, among other things, but surely he has his limits at some point, don't you think? You ask yourself these questions and you will drive yourself crazy. It really doesn't make sense at all, and to me, the lack of storyline continuity is a far bigger reason for people not being able to invest in characters as much anymore than the destruction of kayfabe is. Just a few short years ago, it stuck out like a sore thumb when Sting would trust Ric Flair and Lex Luger after they had both turned on him many years earlier. Now, Chris Jericho can team with guys like JBL, who insulted his family and cost him a championship in his first high profile match back, and Randy Orton, who he came back for the sole purpose of "saving us" from, and no one notices. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Posted February 24, 2009 Report Share Posted February 24, 2009 Absolutely agreed with that Loss. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boondocks Kernoodle Posted February 24, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 24, 2009 No Loss, he and Candice were getting head from a couple of hot chicks at the 4th of July hot dog stand. With their pants up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kjh Posted February 24, 2009 Report Share Posted February 24, 2009 To be fair to WWE they have teased that Hunter is Stephanie's husband in a wink wink fashion on their TV shows on several occasions, so this didn't come completely out of left field. On the other hand, they've been itching to do this storyline for ages, so they had plenty of time to lay more seeds so that it made more sense from an on screen perspective. I don't buy the excuse that they booked themselves into an inescapable hole, so there's no point in even trying to make the storyline at least somewhat logical. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strummer Posted February 25, 2009 Report Share Posted February 25, 2009 yeah they were going to do this angle two years ago with Kennedy (or something similar) before he screwed up. I'm glad as Orton has shined and I don't think Kennedy could have pulled this off as well Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sek69 Posted February 25, 2009 Report Share Posted February 25, 2009 Kennedy was going to be the illegitimate McMahon kid until he got Wellness'd and they ended up making it a joke with Hornswaggle. The more I read people complaining about the logistics of wrestling angles, the more I want to do my impression of the "Really?" bit from SNL As in really, we're going to start applying logic to a business that brought us things like guys videotaping a beatdown in a parking lot then airing it on national TV? Really? And this HHH-Steph angle crosses the logic line when they've had a wrestling zombie for 15 years? Really? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strummer Posted February 25, 2009 Report Share Posted February 25, 2009 I think Kennedy was going to destroy the Mcmahon family one by one and then when he went to attack Steph Hunter would run in and save her kicking off the program. not the same but very similar angles Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kjh Posted February 25, 2009 Report Share Posted February 25, 2009 The more I read people complaining about the logistics of wrestling angles, the more I want to do my impression of the "Really?" bit from SNL As in really, we're going to start applying logic to a business that brought us things like guys videotaping a beatdown in a parking lot then airing it on national TV? Really? And this HHH-Steph angle crosses the logic line when they've had a wrestling zombie for 15 years? Really? I can understand where you're coming from sek, but such a blase attitude to storyline continuity (it doesn't matter because it's wrestling and everyone knows it's fake anyway) breeds the incompetent booking seen in the dying days of WCW and currently in TNA, and is symptomatic of a massive contempt for their audience (they're all just dumb marks after all). The best bookers in the past always tried to ensure that their storylines made sense at least from a warped wrestling logic perspective, even if they didn't make sense from a real life perspective. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sek69 Posted February 25, 2009 Report Share Posted February 25, 2009 It's pro wrestling, I think of it like Chris Rock said about playing basketball with a retarded kid and calling him for double dribble: you just gotta let some shit slide. If you go around looking for logic gaps you'll end up completely taking yourself out of enjoying the show because you're fixated on finding something to complain about. I think that's the biggest problem internet fans face, it's not like any of us (that I'm aware of) are getting paid to be wrestling critics. I'd also want to mention there's a HUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGE difference between not jumping on every potential logical fault and the stuff that WCW/TNA pulled off. They (and I guess at this point you can single out Nash specifically since he's doing the exact same shit in TNA) are purposely trying to insult the audience strictly for their own amusement instead of the actual goal of pro wresting, which is making money. One thing I think is always true about Vince and the WWE is that I don't think you can ever say they purposely went out to insult their audience just for shits and giggles. Yes, from time to time, Vince will use his TV time to work out some issues with people he thinks are "attacking" him, but I've never seen them go to Kevin Nash levels where they are just going out there for their personal amusement and not even attempting to pretend anything going on is real. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Morris Posted February 25, 2009 Report Share Posted February 25, 2009 I think the point has more to do with the fact that we have wrestlers turning face or heel and then suddenly aligning themselves with somebody who they had issues with in the past and pretending the issues never happened. When Bret and Owen Hart were reunited, they did an angle on TV to explain it. I can also remember when they did the first Survivor Series with Hulk Hogan and Paul Orndorff on the same team, about a year or so after their feud, and they did an interview where Hulk was asking Orndroff if he could trust him. Sure, in real life, beating up Dusty Rhodes in a parking lot gets you in trouble, but from a logic standpoint, there nobody asking questions because they know the perpretrators (the Horsemen) are feuding with Dusty. Where WWE logic would kick in is that, one year later, Dusty would suddenly be teaming with a face-turned Arn or Ole Anderson with no explanation as to why they are suddenly teaming with each other than "well, they are both faces." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingus Posted February 26, 2009 Report Share Posted February 26, 2009 Which makes those rare moments where they acknowledge such history to be little extra bonuses. Like, a few months back, both HHH and Kane were on the face side in some big multi-man tag match. Both of them ended up standing next to each other on the apron... and Trips, as casually as he could, stepped around the ringpost so as not to be right next to the guy who he'd feuded with a hundred times. That was kinda cute. But generally, while I do agree that wrestling ain't Shakespeare and shouldn't be held to quite such high standards as other forms of entertainment, they do tend to often do a much worse job than they could. As has been pointed out, there's a bunch of ways that they could've explained why Hunter and Stephanie have been secretly married all this time, but they did not. Far too often they're just plain lazy about this sort of thing; how many times have we seen someone turn face/heel with no explanation beyond just putting on their new stable's t-shirt? Hey, this reminds me of something. At some point a few years ago, didn't the WWE specifically hire some Hollywood writer to be in charge of minimizing continuity errors? And didn't they end up quickly firing him because he found too many fuckups when he went back over the storylines? My memory's hazy on this, if anyone else remembers the details please respond. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted February 26, 2009 Report Share Posted February 26, 2009 Honestly, it's been years since I watched weekly wrestling and I think the only thing that could force me to get back into it would be a shift to heavily focusing on continuity and character development. It's never going to happen, though, thankfully. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sek69 Posted February 26, 2009 Report Share Posted February 26, 2009 My point being, when did wrestling ever focus on continuity? You had Michael Hayes teaming with the Von Erichs in the dying days of WCCW, you had Nikita go from evil heel Russian monster to babyface because he "respected" Magnum TA, a guy he spent the last year trying to destroy? As shocking as it was, what sense did it make for Hogan to turn heel and join the nWo? His rationale made no sense because even though the crowds were starting to get bored of Hulkamania, he was still being pushed as a much loved babyface superhero. Sure, WWE might do even less of a job keeping track of continuity than in the good old days, but it was hardly something that was a main point of focus back then either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sek69 Posted March 3, 2009 Report Share Posted March 3, 2009 Speaking of Wrestlemania, Jericho is just running circles around the rest of the roster in terms of heel abilities. His segment with Snuka was just magic, since he was paired with a guy who was barely intelligible in in his prime he had to do both sides of the promo and still pulled it off. I have a feeling he's going to end up getting heat for out-heeling the main event program since WWE doesn't like it when guys don't know their roles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted March 3, 2009 Report Share Posted March 3, 2009 Orton and Jericho are both doing very well right now, but Orton is more someone who you know will eventually turn babyface and be very over for it. I suspect they'll move Jericho to Smackdown in the draft and maybe do a feud with Undertaker or something. One of the WM main event winners will have to end up on that show somehow also. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sek69 Posted March 4, 2009 Report Share Posted March 4, 2009 Since it's going to be Taker/HBK at WM, there's a good opportunity for referencing history and to plug WWE 24/7: right now on the Monday Night War shows, they are at the point where they're hyping the Casket Match that caused Shawn's back injury. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted March 5, 2009 Report Share Posted March 5, 2009 Whether it means anything or not, Hogan is teasing a match against either Chris Jericho or John Cena on his Twitter page. Also, Flair is now saying in radio interviews that if Shawn Michaels gave his blessing, he would do a match against Chris Jericho in his street clothes and call it a street fight. Flair apparently doesn't realize that the gravy train will eventually end. The moment he comes back and does a match is the moment his asking price on the indies will go down, and at that point he'll be in less demand with less control over his dates. Considering the awful career choices he has made through the years, Flair is a lucky guy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kjh Posted March 5, 2009 Report Share Posted March 5, 2009 Really, for Ric Flair the gravy train will never end. Will it always be as lucrative as it is now. Of course not! But there's enough money marks out there for him to make a killing doing meet and greets, autograph signings and teary eyed promos for some time yet. When that dries up, his son Reid will be ready to debut in WWE for him to hog the spotlight from, sorry manage. TNA will always be an option if he gets particularly desperate. And in the end he's Ric Flair, the most beloved legend in the industry, so someone will take pity on him and give him a pay cheque for doing sod all when he's too old to even milk the indy circuit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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