Who Is Better?

[Guest hack myers]

Dylan, I'm curious to see what your position on the comparison between Punk and Christian is since you mentioned that if Punk-Cena was at all epic or really great that Punk had a chance to jump Christian in your comparison. So out of curiosity, has Punk made the jump over Christian?

[Dylan Waco]

Dylan, I'm curious to see what your position on the comparison between Punk and Christian is since you mentioned that if Punk-Cena was at all epic or really great that Punk had a chance to jump Christian in your comparison. So out of curiosity, has Punk made the jump over Christian?

Yes and I'm glad you asked.

 

To me Punk has now reached a point where you can expect him to deliver every time he is in a big time program. I love Christian's 09 and I'm not sure Punk will ever have a year that consistent, but Punk now has a MOTD contender, to go along with a great Misterio series, the great Joe series and the great Hardy series.

[Matt D]

To me, the most amazing thing about Christian is how he can wrestle someone five times in a row and each successive match will feel

 

1) different

2) consciously built on the matches leading up to it

and

3) not in the least artificial.

 

I didn't get that feeling in the first half of the Orton match from MITB. It felt a little too choreographed with the counters, which isn't like a Christian match at all.

 

Re: Hennig. I think my favorite WWF Hennig match isn't one of the Bret series (though I love the Summerslam match and when I went back to watch it recently, I thought I wouldn't like it much at all having seen a lot of WWF hennig just before that and I loved it) but the Piper MSG match from 12/90:

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xaejk9_ro...-ic-title_sport

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xaek3g_ro...-ic-title_sport

 

(I think that's the one I'm thinking of at least).

[smkelly]

I like Christian, have since he was a mid card heel act busting his ass on Raw in '03, but I dislike his finishing maneuver with great prejudice.

[Loss]

I know this is going to sound like an odd comparison, but I think it's an interesting one.

 

Who is better: El Samurai or Bret Hart?

[smkelly]

Bret Hart:

vs. HBK - The complete feud. I used to love their Survivor Series '92 match, but it sucks now when I watch it. I actually like their Iron Match match, and largely due to the reasons I dislike their SS '92 match. Then Montreal happened, which had been an awesome in-crowd brawling escapade before they were reached the ring.

vs. Owen - especially in 1994 when they kicked ass at both WM and SummerSlam and had an hour long match together. Their cage match is one of the best ever, and their WM match is one of the best opening matches ever too. Both are WWF 1990s MOTDC.

vs. Austin - Their submission match was the best they had, and my personal WWF 1990s MOTD. It is in the talking point of 1990s MOTD as well for me. Survivor Series 1996 was awesome too, as were the street fights and ten-man tag.

vs. Davey Boy - I love their SummerSlam match to death and like the IYH World title match a lot too because of the blood in it.

vs. Benoit - Though I'm not as high on mostly any of their other matches, the Owen Tribute was awesome. Probably one of my all-time favorite WCW moments.

 

El Samurai:

vs. Liger - best match being 4/30/92 which is a 1990s MOTDC. Also had a fantastic match in May of 92 too.

vs. Benoit - I liked their 1993 TOSJ finals match a lot better in 2002 then I do now.

 

* His TOSJ 1997 work was impressive. Though I think the final is overrated because of the reverse head-dumping top rope hurricanrana. I kid. It should have been the finish though.

* His J Crown match against Ohtani is an all-timer. As was the UWA title match in January of the same year.

 

Overall though - I'd go with Bret. Bret excelled in areas that Samurai floundered - notably, selling. And selling is very important to me.

[MJH]

I love Bret, and don't like the majority of '90s NJ Junior matches now, so it's no surprise I'd go with Bret too. There are times when I'm really impressed with Samurai; whilst I don't rate 1/96 with Otani nearly as highly as a lot of people, both are clearly strong workers. But I don't think much of it really holds together with Samurai. I'm not sure there's a single Samurai match that I think holds up as well and truly great (I have to revisit the Liger Junior Final) whereas the majority of Bret's best stuff holds up as strong as it always was for me.

[jdw]

If Sammy-Ohtani doesn't hold up, then I think pretty much none of pro-style puroresu from say 1994-1999 holds up. And I include my beloved AJPW boys in that not-hold-up bucket if that's the case.

 

John

[smkelly]

I don't see how you can draw that conclusion based off Ohtani/Samurai not being as good as many claim to be - which I say knowing it was your #1 New Japan match of the 1990s.

 

It is pretty common that the New Japan juniors get 'docked' for the same thing - lack of selling. Misawa, Kawada, and Kobashi, though masters of selling - they did have moments of, "Wow, I can't believe they're not selling anymore," when they clearly should have.

 

But overall, I've never seen "jdw inspired in-depth dialogue" pointing out that the All Japan heavyweights of the 90s were bad sellers, let alone, in the league of what the New Japan juniors routinely did. I searched your pimping post/ballot for the words 'sell' and 'selling'. Nothing came up that would suggest a problem with their selling.

 

At any rate, I think the 1/96 match between the two of them is an all-time great match...but I can see where people wouldn't like it as much as others do. And I largely disagree with the notion that it doesn't hold up. I find the 90s New Japan juniors to be better overall as a cohesive unit than anything puro junior related in the last decade and the beginning of the new one too.

[MJH]

To me it just boils down to one guy goes after the arm vs. one guy goes after the leg. There's very little to it. It's about as good/great as limb vs. limb is going to ever be, and I don't have a problem with people calling it great because it's moreorless the best version of that kind of match, but I can't help thinking it needs something more. It's great that they stuck with it, but I was never one for "if you start working a limb you have to stick with it" anyway. I don't think that *on its own* works. It's like building a match purely around two finishers. It works to a point, but ultimately it comes down to the powerbomb guy vs. the tiger suplex guy or whatever, unless it's a part of something bigger. I've heard people talk about it having an underdog story for Otani - and there are times when he sells as such, obviously - but the match is far too 50/50 for me to buy into that. I prefer it to a lot of Juniors stuff because it's coherent for its duration and it's not "kill time... TV cue - Let's GO!" I can't call it great when it's that one-dimensional, and I really don't see any comparison with the AJPW guys.

 

Ed: I'll amend "not holding up" insomuch as to say that it's still great for the (majority of) reasons it was great then. It's more a case of me not thinking it as great as I once did watching it back more recently.

[MJH]

Misawa, Kawada, and Kobashi, though masters of selling - they did have moments of, "Wow, I can't believe they're not selling anymore," when they clearly should have.

 

//

 

I find the 90s New Japan juniors to be better overall as a cohesive unit than anything puro junior related in the last decade and the beginning of the new one too.

To your first point - I think that's terribly overblown. For one, I've never seen anyone match their long term selling as far as putting over how exacting/exhausting the matches are. It no doubt helps when you're working so physically and I'm sure it's "3/4 Legit" that they're tired but still. You only have to watch the Cena/Punk match where John has wrestled for half an hour and dives out the ring fresh to punch Ace, or countless other "epic" matches where guys are rar'ing through the last stretch of near falls.

 

Are there instances where they could've perhaps put something over more? Sure. But the "no-selling" works for me perfectly fine in context.

 

***

 

As to the second - I agree entirely. It's not that I actively hate Liger/Otani/whomever... the point is they're clearly great talents much moreso than, say, Kota Ibushi (well, he's great athletically). Ibushi may as well just do his spots because a) he does them really fucking well and I'm not sure there's anything else he does nearly as well, so why not?

 

If you take something like Liger/Otani where they're supposedly doing dominant/underdog, and they go and work the first half of the match even, and Liger never has an extended run of offence in the middle showing his dominance, and Otani's comebacks/transitions are no harder for him than Liger's are for him etc... you expect more. Or I do. It's not as though they were working to crowds who maybe need a bunch of flashy shit after more flashy shit after more flashy shit to keep them engaged and are otherwise dead (and often blacked out under the house lights).

[smkelly]

To your first point - I think that's terribly overblown. For one, I've never seen anyone match their long term selling as far as putting over how exacting/exhausting the matches are. It no doubt helps when you're working so physically and I'm sure it's "3/4 Legit" that they're tired but still.

As I said though, there were moments. One I remember specifically, though I don't remember the date, is one of the Misawa/Kobashi matches. It's later in the decade and Kobashi works over Misawa's arm something fierce. IIRC, he worked it over for the first 2/3 of the match. The last 1/3 was Misawa working against what had already been established.

 

But since I am a die-hard All Japan pre-split mark, I generally look the other way when it comes time to lay out my final review/thoughts/analysis. I know that it is there ("lack of selling and therefore pointless arm work that leads nowhere") though, and a more unbiased fan could and probably would deduct points/stars/nice adjectives for it. Maybe unbiased isn't the right word because most of my viewing philosophies have undergone some much needed apparatus updates and modifications lately. But it probably is biased

[jdw]

Ed: I'll amend "not holding up" insomuch as to say that it's still great for the (majority of) reasons it was great then. It's more a case of me not thinking it as great as I once did watching it back more recently.

That's what I was getting at.

 

I'm not saying that folks should rate it as highly as I do.

 

I'm saying that in terms of "holding up", it is a match that ages well. Koji vs Sammy in 1997 doesn't hold up for some people for the general reasons that a lot of 90s juniors stuff doesn't hold up. Sammy-Ohtani doesn't really have those general reasons that juniors haven't aged well.

 

I suspect that I can more easily find example of goofy selling in some highly rated 1996 AJPW matches than I can in Sammy-Ohtani. I'm not sold at all that Misawa-Kobashi from the Carny that year holds up to the ratings people gave it at the time: ****3/4 by Dave, and it's not like anyone *then* was objecting to it. My Torch review certainly put it over strongly. I know you like it quite a bit, but Loss had it at a unenthusiastic #50 for 1996, and Ditch (who is pretty much the 2010 equiv of 1996 jdw) couldn't even be bothered to write anything about it. 2 comments for the match in the 1996 thread. Does that strike anyone as the reaction to a match that was ****3/4 in 1996 at a time when there weren't 30 ****3/4 matches?

 

I tend to think that Sammy-Ohtani has aged better than Misawa-Kobashi. That's not arguing that it's better than Misawa-Kobashi, or that Misawa-Kobashi is a bad match, or that everyone needs to rate Sammy-Ohtani as highly as I do. Simply that it's worked in a way those holds up really well relative to its peers and stands out as a bit of a not-normal match, while Misawa-Kobashi is kind of just another one of their good matches.

 

John

[Loss]

I haven't seen a Misawa/Kobashi singles match yet that really did anything for me. I liked the 3/96 match, but as John said, I wasn't enthusiastic about it. In fairness, I have only seen 1993 and 1996 matches they have had against each other. I tend to see Kawada/Kobashi as a much better rivalry than it's given credit for, and Misawa/Kawada talk seems right on point.

[Loss]

Oh, and I wanted to compare Samurai to Bret not because I think Samurai is necessarily better, but because I think Samurai is worthy of being talked about with wrestlers at Bret's level. Samurai had what I consider the best matches for Liger and Otani, and in the top handful for Benoit also.

[smkelly]

Loss - You've never seen Misawa/Kobashi from 1/20/97? I know you said you didn't...but wow. I thought most fans like us had seen that match. I have a compilation with all of their matches...if you catch my drift.

[MJH]

Yeah, John, on re-reading your post after my own reply I realised the difference in "holding up" vs. "not as good as I remembered", hence the edit.

 

As far as Misawa/Kobashi goes, I think it's important to watch it as a stand-alone match; to me their "rivalry" as far as an arc of matches only really began with the 1/97 switch. 3/96 is a Misawa-by-numbers where he's selling to the audience as much as he can that Kobashi just might get the win. In that sense it's more comparable to the Misawa/Taue 2/93 match (and I think it's better than that match, although it obviously should be as well).

 

****3/4? No. But I'm hard-pressed to think of a better singles match in AJ that year. Kawada/Taue on the same show, I like, but I prefer their match a year earlier rather substantially (and their Budokan match is not so good). Taue/Doc is good for what it is, and I could understand people prefering it, especially with what Misawa/Kobashi went on to do, but I don't think you could fairly call it better. Kawada/Kobashi I need to get back to.

 

If I were to rate it, it'd probably be ****, maybe ****1/4. I think it's the first "Misawa/Kobashi" match in the sense that their work is ahead of what any other heavyweight pairing have done, and it's coherent. 4/93 we only have the stretch, which is very good but it's, what, 1/3 of the whole thing? Their '95 Carnival match I like a lot but it's "smaller". 10/95 is what it is; I haven't watched it in years and don't really plan to until I get to it whenever I next run through the year. I've always liked the idea of the start more than most seem to (I mean, it makes sense for Kobashi to throw big shit early to get enough of a "lead") but IIRC there's a weird re-set shortly thereafter and, well, you know the rest.

 

Misawa/Kobashi vs. Otani/Samurai? I just think there's more to the former. But, I can understand being in the minority on preferring the AJ match. For one, the latter is more special and notable. If you know how Misawa/Kobashi work(ed), it's by the books in a lot of ways. And, well, I love how they work, at least most of the time.

[smkelly]

I like the older Misawa/Kobashi matches significantly less than their bouts in '97 through '99. What is the consensus there? I already know John's, but feel free to add anyway, man.

[Loss]

Loss - You've never seen Misawa/Kobashi from 1/20/97? I know you said you didn't...but wow. I thought most fans like us had seen that match. I have a compilation with all of their matches...if you catch my drift.

Thanks. I'll wait until the '97 yearbook. I'm enjoying seeing stuff in context.

[Loss]

Oh, and I wanted to compare Samurai to Bret not because I think Samurai is necessarily better, but because I think Samurai is worthy of being talked about with wrestlers at Bret's level. Samurai had what I consider the best matches for Liger and Otani, and in the top handful for Benoit also.

I should also add that the Ultimo handheld from WAR on 3/7/93 is at worst one of the two or three best matches Ultimo ever had. He was a utility player who helped others get where they needed to go for sure, but he should probably get more credit than he does.

[smkelly]

I think you mean 'best' because you gave it ****1/2. Ultimo's non-American work squashes whatever he did in the states.

[Loss]

Oops, yes I did. Ultimo had great matches everywhere he wrestled. He didn't always have great matches everywhere he wrestled, but he did have great matches everywhere. I'm not sure his best stateside stuff is far behind the rest. There's just a lot less of it.

[Mad Dog]

El Samurai:

 

I'm really down on Bret Hart the worker currently. He's so utterly predictable in the ring that he's almost painful to sit through at times. I think I could turn on a Hart match, close my eyes and call his spots with a fair amount of accuracy. I think he had a lot of talent and was content to just get by more often than he should have. Hart also really shined in a promotion that was really devoid of talent during his biggest run.

 

El Samurai on the other hand. I feel like he wasn't a really athletic guy and kind of awkward at times. With that said, I think once he hit his stride as a worker around 1996 that he really turned into an excellent worker. I think it's a testament to how good he was that he managed to stand out as a junior in New Japan.

 

On Ultimo Dragon. I loved his J Crown semi-final match with Shinjiro Ohtani.

[smkelly]

I don't know. Whenever I watched the Junior Tournaments when I was first getting into puro (early 2002) it was for Benoit (Which WCW had remarked about several times), Liger (some of his one or two shots on Nitro/Thunder), Eddy (Which similarly to Benoit was mentioned), and The Great Sasuke because I had seen him in ECW in 1997 and then the WWF in 1998.

 

Obviously I discovered more workers, like Samurai, the real Sasuke and Liger, and the real Benoit and Guerrero. But though Samurai was definitely awesome and better than any Indy junior America had at the time when I was watching his footage from the early nineties, he never became the guy I bought a VHS dub to see. Ohtani sure as hell did when I finally saw the Super Junior Tag League. I really liked the Michinoku Pro guys a lot (a lot more then than now though). I finally found the world of Masanobu Fuchi. But I never looked at discovering el Samurai like the discovery of Misawa vs. Kawada 6-3-94, or the June '95 tag, or Hart vs. Austin I Quit.

 

I already knew Liger was awesome before I ever watched his Super Junior Final against Samurai. I watched it and Liger's performance was so spectacular that his already existing stock went up further than Samurai's went up from zero. Same with the 1993 Tournament Final - Benoit had already gone under the knife for spinal fusion when I watched their match for the first time. Again, I only saw it as the Benoit show, not the el Samurai show. I don't know what it is about him, I just never watch "him for him", or whatever that means. Just like I watched the Super J Cup because it had: Chris Benoit, Dean Malenko, Eddy Guerrero, Shinjiro Ohtani, Jushin Liger, TAKA Michinoku, and Super Delfin - I wanted to see all of them before el Samurai ever made the list.

[Mad Dog]

You're talking about the early 90s though. El Samurai didn't really reach his full potential until about 1996. Before that his performances tended to not stand out as much. But even then. El Samurai wasn't a flashy guy. He didn't have the same athletic ability as the guys you mentioned. His physical tools were a little more limited than them. So you won't see him do things as amazing as a Liger, Dragon, Sasuke or Ohtani. You won't have an El Samurai moment in your head. You'll just realize after awhile that he's been in a crap load of good matches over a really long period of time.